British Airways vs. BASSA (Airline Staff Only)

[Chesh01]

they think its all over!

We need protection from Carmen as well, have you thought already about how bad our rosters are going to be????? It is going to be a nightmare!

Any request of annual leave etc,will be a big resounding NO! ns68

Sorry but this kind of speculation is OTT. For a start one persons great trip is another's nightmare. Scheduling just do not have the time to look at names when filling flights. Rosters good or bad are never personal.

[dave3]

ns68 I have been following your posts and what a refreshing view they are... reasonable and with out any malice.. I am with you I am upset that anyone who is a striker is thort of in the main as a thug and a hooligan.. so far from the truth.. as with any two sides you have a few who are completely with out any reasoning and the majority who would love to debate.. My concern is with the lack of debate.. if you dont speak you can not be heard if you dont listen you can not learn.. I may not change my views but I can always respect anothers views when it is put forward in a respectful manor.. on both sides the venom that is spat in some of the posts leaves me both scared and upset that it has come to this. I am not an articulate person as you may have noticed I have dyslexia.. however I have a heart, I have feelings and I do care I feel .. It may not be what some want to hear a stike with feelings but again we live in a democracy everyone has a right to a voice...

[Chesh01]

check dis!

with regard to the money for the new aircraft... things were happening at the regions that LHR crew had no idea about and frankly did not care about.. dave3

Glasgow, Belfast, Edinburgh, Birmingham bases closed. LGW worldwide absorbed into Euro LGW...... All of these were "Union negotiated" All these left the base crews unhappy. As an ex LGW I was very disapointed at the negotiated termination of the worldwide base and the leaving options we were given. For all that union negotiation on my behalf I would rather take imposition!

[ns68]

Sorry but this kind of speculation is OTT. For a start one persons great trip is another's nightmare. Scheduling just do not have the time to look at names when filling flights. Rosters good or bad are never personal.

it was obviously a joke for me..and I soooo soooo agree that ones person great trip is another's nightmare, but saying that,a while ago I called scheduling to get a lieu day and I was told there wasn't any and that my Dme would have gone to some other poor cc.. I replied that I enjoy my DMEs,they are a good day out,but it's obviously renowned in scheduling for not being so popular according to my conversation on the day.
And by the way, don't know what fleet you are on,but we always joke about Carmen on board,at least on Eurofleet we do..so don't get too upset about it!

[dave3]

Chesh01 not being smart but did you leave Manchester out of your reply for any perticular reason when mentioning base closures? You would rather take imposition that is totaly your choice.. I would rather not.

[Chesh01]

True Dave3

To be honest I am unsure of the specifics with the base closures. I do know they were union negotiated and that the crews were overall unhappy with what the union negotiated on their behalf. I was at LGW.

Incidently I respect your right to withdraw your labour and I've had no problems in working with strikers so far.

I sincerely hope you have no grief at work...

[Spanner in the works]

Dave3 and others.
Do you think BASSA/UNITE made every effort to work with BA prior to the imposition last November?
Did they work toward a solution of the issues facing the airline - namely, less coming into the tills?

[dave3]

Hi Spanner, from what I know I do feel that more could have been done from both sides.. I know that myself and many crew were all ready along with Bassa to give money and understood that times needed to change..of course we had to give things up.. it does upset me though when the ceo and the execs get share deals during all of this but hey hol...
I along with everyone at British Airways have worked so hard to make this company lets be real with out the cleaner to the ceo we would not have a company we are all important...
Years ago I remember feeling valued, I remember feeling excited,, I remember thinking that I could go so much further with my career at British Airways.. I have not had those feelings for a long time now.. again promotional prospects are virtualy nil in my role if this goes through. how do you motivate me.. how do you value me, how do you get the best out of me. How do you make me happy at work....

[gr8tballsoffire]

Dave3
You could have had a share deal too. It was part of the first offer.
Did you know that was the case?

[the flying nunn]

I want to believe you Dave 3

I am upset that anyone who is a striker is thort of in the main as a thug and a hooligan.. so far from the truth.. as with any two sides you have a few who are completely with out any reasoning and the majority who would love to debate.. My concern is with the lack of debate.. if you dont speak you can not be heard if you dont listen you can not learn.

Dave 3 I want to believe that you represent the majority view from the strikers camp but I'm sorry I don't. Reading the BASSA and Crew Forums I am shocked by the number and frequency of posts that look to stir up hatred and revenge towards the crew that ignored the call to strike. I mentioned before that I have read requests to let non strikers burn in an emergency situation as well as literally thousands of posts demanding that non strikers be ignored down route. Add to that the hundreds of suggestions on how to spot a non striker in the briefing, what is not accepted as an excuse for working, even poems encouraging the hate - the list is endless. What does surprise me is that usually in the same post words such as honor, dignity, respect etc are used. I am sorry but there is a lynch mob mentality that percolates through the pages of those forums as well as, and often encouraged by, the communications that are issued from BASSA. I havent seen anything like that feeling from the non strikers towards the strikers.

Whilst working through the strike I have found that the strongest of emotions directed at the strikers is of pity. This evolves from the often held belief that the union has fed it's members a constant stream of untruths. Sure, after reading the constant campaign of hate towards non strikers lots of us are apprehensive about the return of "the other side" but that doesn't mean that we don't know that we will all have to work together and respect the others views. I would just hope that it can be done without leaving anyone left to burn, cars being scratched, oxygen being emptied etc. In your post you mention the two "sides", that confirms the fact that we are not all in agreement about what has happened. I think we will find that there will be days when we find ourselves on a majority strikers crew and other days when we find ourselves on a majority non strikers crew. At the end of the day strikers or not we are all crew and hopefully we will get along just well enough to run a safe and secure operation and that there will be people like you from both camps that encourage honest adult debate. I take my hat off to you for doing so.


this is my own personal view and not that of my employer

[Spanner in the works]

I think you'll find most of us have had limited promotion opportunities for some years now. The side-effect of flatter organisational structures.

In times gone by, the structure was very bloated. It has now been thinned by a huge amount - the CSD changes were always going to be on the agenda. Similar has happened all over the place.
I have had to reapply for my job twice in the last 7 years as a result of such changes.

You say that there have been issues on both sides with respect to negotiation prior to November - but do you remember how at first - the main union line was that the situation wasn't as bad as BA were making out. That BA were "pulling a fast one" and over-egging the financial outlook in order to push changes through. Hence the PR exercise that highlighted the "cash burn" scenario. This was early to mid 2009 if I remember right.
BALPA actually got experts to study BA's books as part of their negotiation - not long after, a deal was struck.
I believe BASSA did not - or refused to.

Seems telling that the line about BA portraying the finances as poorer than they are, has disappeared from the BASSA rhetoric.
Does this mean they realise it was as bad as made out?
he implications of this are of course that negotiations may have been more "business oriented" had BASSA taken the risk the airline was facing and sat down to seriously negotiate. Or maybe not.

I personally think the above is a big reason why folk are asking "what are you actually on strike for?"

A recent line taken has been "it'll be you next - we are fighting for everyone's rights here".
Welll, we have already had it - and we realise there will be more. Nature of buisness I'm afraid. I've seen a big reshuffle or cost push every three/four years for the 25 I have been here.

[Human Factor]

...at one point we gave 5000 pounds per crew member per year up to the company to purchase new aircraft.. I kid you not....

I couldn't put a price on it but the assertion above is accurate. I can't speak for what cabin crew were asked to give but the pilot's working agreement in BA Regional was changed to finance twenty six new aircraft at BHX, MAN and GLA. In the end we got nine new A319s at BHX (now at LHR) and a bunch of second hand 737s at Manchester (now recently retired from LGW). GLA got nothing. Unfortunately, the "business plan had changed".

Back to the thread.

[dave3]

I will not be able to retain my current T&C's my promotioal prospects will be nill( however since last October I have been constantly asked to work up a grade...so there is a need for promotion. The CSD working on board.. well I have no real problem with this altho I did find that the role of the CSD was so important in dealing with customer complaints seat problems landing cards and yes even the form filling whils it left crew to get on with the service... The crew member commig off..well on a full load I feel sad for the poor customer at the back of club who constantly waits forever untill the food/ drink or arrives. I believe that once the customer startscomplaining the extra crew member will be put back on but this is a stale mate... My pension will be effected the way I see it the trips will be pushed to new fleet...O/t will deminish, destination payments will be lost.
I have crunched the figures and my pension will be effected..
When I asked our CEO who would be keeping his promises after he had gone he laughed....
I for one have to say if the company had come to me and said we need £2000 per year off you for the next 3 years in order to put the company back on track and all the senior managers the CEO included and all the other departments will do the same with a percentage of their wage in line with what you are giving.. Yourcurrent T&C's will remain the same including the union involvment .. we are going to bring in a new fleet and these are the routes they will be doing.... there will be no change in these routes and the routes you currently have are protected... then YES I would have agreed...

[Human Factor]

My pension will be effected the way I see it the trips will be pushed to new fleet...O/t will deminish, destination payments will be lost.
I have crunched the figures and my pension will be effected..

Your pension is based upon your basic pay, not allowances, destination payments, etc. Provided your basic pay doesn't change your pension will not change. The only proposal BA have suggested, which Unite have agreed to is that basic pay, not including increments, is frozen (not cut) for two years. The only basic pay cut was proposed by BASSA.

Crunch the figures again.

Edit: Proposed changes to NAPS mean that perhaps you will be paying a little more in contributions for the same pension. This is separate from the current industrial dispute and if you are a member of BARP, you will not be affected.

[dave3]

Human factor you remember it well thank you.. that is exactly how it was...
and we are still waiting for all the new aircraft .. its like a buider working for wimpy being asked by wimpyto bring their own bricks and cement to work in order for the company to build houses.
. what I am trying to convey is I have had my cost cutting in a large way... I have had my T&C's changed I have now a large communting bill each month due to base closure.. although crew continue to night stop in hotels in my base town to continue the flights we used to do....anyone who says "well move to London or give your job up" doesnt realise how much I love this job.and how happy the company were that we would continue to commute.. I cant simply up and move my family.. I already did this for the company 20 years ago and then moved again..my family is now settled.. my husbands busniess is in my home town.. I have a job I just want to protect it on the T&C's my company and my union have given me.

[blue____]

reg staff travel when commuting and rosters

Most of the commuters that commute from Spain and the rest of Europe, have already "bought" concessions with EZY or Ryan as they have links (friends or ex colleagues) and the staff travel with those airlines is more flexible. I don't know about the rest, but commuting from other places like LAX or other places in the US is too much (personal opinion) plus it says to me that if they chose to do it, they can afford it.(old contacts, working maybe twice a year)

Now regarding rostering, well last year a friend told me that there are two very long ATH flights in July only (almost a double stand over) and because she knew people, she got them both. Well, she was impressed to see the same crew on both flights, so she is not the only one...

I also went as cling on to NRT twice, half of the crew were the same on both flights, so hey, it happens, but as the company is so big, you don't see or feel it that much.

Just back from work, in the bus and car park strikers that flew on the breather day and returned today (in full uniform with bassa lanyards and "vote yes" luggage tags) were giving us killing looks all the way... Is this going to stop anytime soon? When will people realize that everyone is free to have -and entitled to- their own opinion, that may be different to the one they have?

[Human Factor]

I have a job I just want to protect it on the T&C's my company and my union have given me.

I sympathise, honestly I really do. The quote above applies to me too (Airbus Captain). However, it simply isn't practical to hold out for no changes. BA can't afford it - despite what BASSA would have you believe. Under the current circumstances, your priority should be to protect your job. The only way you can do this (as the other workgroups in BA have already recognised) is to do your best to keep BA in business. As you say, you love your job. Why throw it away?

The offer from BA detailed a few pages back was a good one, all things considered, yet BASSA chose not to accept it. It wasn't even put to the membership for a vote (why not?). I guarantee that as a result of this intransigence, whatever deal eventually materialises will be significantly inferior. That offer gave you the chance to retain most of your terms and conditions. The next one almost certainly won't.

Interestingly, one of my colleagues spoke to WW about his intentions after we had signed our part of the deal. We had basically been given the choice of an "all pay" or "all T&Cs" or "a bit of each" solution to achieve our savings. WW expected us to protect our pay at all costs and said he would have only gone after our T&Cs if we had not come to an agreement. Personally (having taken about a 5% cut), I'm pleased we did a deal.

Good luck. I think you'll need it.

[dave3]

perhaps it may change when the company give us the green light to talk about it at work
I have said on an earlier post a CSD or Captain stating in a brief... "we do not want to hear anything about the current situation" does not help and sets a bad feeling at the start of the day... of course people are going to talk about it.. we need to be able to talk about it and ask peoples different opinions.. the devide has got to big and I think its up to all of us by talking openly with out fear of a silly comment being reported to start the talks.. we all need to be less sensitive.. understand there are going to be the odd off the cuff remark from both sides and deal with it instead of running to managers with the shout "sack them sack them" and that goes for both sides.. we all need to be adults and the company need to start alowing us to deal with this .

[Human Factor]

"we do not want to hear anything about the current situation"

I'm an advocate of keeping the industrial situation off the aircraft. It distracts people from the job in hand. Off the aeroplane, talk to your heart's content.

[Hand Solo]

I'd imagine the strikers would need to advance beyond the 48 page thread on Crew Forum titled "Who says I have to respect colleagues choices?" before open discussion of the dispute could be permitted at work. Most of the contributors to CF and BASSA appear incapable of reasoned debate and very rapidly start hurling hysterical abuse at those who disagree with their ultra militant stance. That's the reason debate has to be kept off the aircraft.