British Airways vs. BASSA (Airline Staff Only)
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dave3 - I know Eurofleet is different to WW but I always tell my crew that they should talk about it but they must respect each others opinions. Of course it is not realistic to ban all discussion; this is the biggest thing in most peoples lives right now. It's the giant pile of elephant poo in the corner of the galley!
flyingnunn -
Actually, if you look closer, it is the same posters, maybe 30 or 40 individuals, who are saying these things. ns68 and dave3 are much more representative of the crew on-board who find themselves between a rock and a hard place and have no idea what to do about it. Rhetoric and spin has long been a tool in industrial action (and politics for that matter) but I don't believe most actually buy in to it. I have sat in restaurants with a mixed crew, all discussing it sensibly. I have witnessed Flight and striking Cabin crew having a rational conversation too. Its all about not pre-judging!
flyingnunn -
Reading the BASSA and Crew Forums I am shocked by the number and frequency of posts that look to stir up hatred and revenge towards the crew that ignored the call to strike. I mentioned before that I have read requests to let non strikers burn in an emergency situation as well as literally thousands of posts demanding that non strikers be ignored down route. Add to that the hundreds of suggestions on how to spot a non striker in the briefing, what is not accepted as an excuse for working, even poems encouraging the hate - the list is endless.
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Dave3. Thanks for continuing the debate ... Just 2 quick points...
1) ' I feel sad for the poor customer at the back of club who constantly waits forever untill the food/ drink or arrives.' - why are they waiting? The crewing level in club has not changed as the lost crew member has been replaced in club by the newly working CSD. And it's not because of IFE issues (that needs a switch turning off and left for 30 minutes) or passenger issues (it's a long flight - a bit of prioritising might help...).
2) Given the company's position, can we really afford CSD's on £30-£50k being employed on every flight just in case there are pax issues or to hand out immigration cards? If not, what should we do with them? Sack them, or use them in the cabin?
I too was in the Regions. BASSA had ZERO interest in what happened, probably because it had no effect on LHR's WW CSD's....
1) ' I feel sad for the poor customer at the back of club who constantly waits forever untill the food/ drink or arrives.' - why are they waiting? The crewing level in club has not changed as the lost crew member has been replaced in club by the newly working CSD. And it's not because of IFE issues (that needs a switch turning off and left for 30 minutes) or passenger issues (it's a long flight - a bit of prioritising might help...).
2) Given the company's position, can we really afford CSD's on £30-£50k being employed on every flight just in case there are pax issues or to hand out immigration cards? If not, what should we do with them? Sack them, or use them in the cabin?
I too was in the Regions. BASSA had ZERO interest in what happened, probably because it had no effect on LHR's WW CSD's....
Unions
As a lighter aside on this Forum, I found the following in Libbie Escolmes splendid book, Glamour In The Skies published last year.
''BASSA was an old style union and not very pleasant according to A.... B....''
''It was certainly upsetting for many stewardesses,who were told no one would would fly with them unless they were members''
''Life was unbearable on board if you were flying with a union steward and were not a member''
''I recall several awful strikes where certain stewards didn't help the cause by arriving in a Rolls-Royce'' (or in the present IA at BFC in a BMW M3)
No change there then!
''BASSA was an old style union and not very pleasant according to A.... B....''
''It was certainly upsetting for many stewardesses,who were told no one would would fly with them unless they were members''
''Life was unbearable on board if you were flying with a union steward and were not a member''
''I recall several awful strikes where certain stewards didn't help the cause by arriving in a Rolls-Royce'' (or in the present IA at BFC in a BMW M3)
No change there then!
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Dave 3 I want to believe that you represent the majority view from the strikers camp but I'm sorry I don't. Reading the BASSA and Crew Forums I am shocked by the number and frequency of posts that look to stir up hatred and revenge towards the crew that ignored the call to strike. I mentioned before that I have read requests to let non strikers burn in an emergency situation as well as literally thousands of posts demanding that non strikers be ignored down route. Add to that the hundreds of suggestions on how to spot a non striker in the briefing, what is not accepted as an excuse for working, even poems encouraging the hate - the list is endless. What does surprise me is that usually in the same post words such as honor, dignity, respect etc are used. I am sorry but there is a lynch mob mentality that percolates through the pages of those forums as well as, and often encouraged by, the communications that are issued from BASSA. I havent seen anything like that feeling from the non strikers towards the strikers.
I have never been on CF so maybe I am missing out some nasty comments-I recommend you don't go and read them if they upset you. Have been on BASSA and the most comments are directed at our CEO.They see him as the ruin of our airline. but otherwise there is always a laugh and a joke on there.There is a lot of taking about staff travel..etc..Saying that, I will go and have a quick sweep at the posts this morning just to see what you mean. normally there is hardly anything bad.If there is,it is as much as there was on here last week. But once again, don't read them if they upset you.it 's only words on a laptop screen.
I would just hope that it can be done without leaving anyone left to burn, cars being scratched, oxygen being emptied etc.
Whilst working through the strike I have found that the strongest of emotions directed at the strikers is of pity. This evolves from the often held belief that the union has fed it's members a constant stream of untruths.
I know it was convenient to go in.You don't lose your pay,you don't lose your staff travel, and you might actually get a set of things negotiated while others are on the line for you.It's a win win situation.I have said this here before.I wish I could have taken the same position you did.But I couldn't.
I understand very well that people posting on here are often not cc and they don't care whether we keep our t&C,actually there is a lot of determination of seeing us going down(but it doesn't matter-they have got every right to protect their job)but from fellow crew it's harder to take.
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NS - Noones contract has a 'guarantee' in it. It's a nonsense. What if I had a guarantee in my contract that I would have 3 pilots on an LA trip and Mr Boeing came up with an aircraft that flew it in an hour. Would we keep 3 pilots or would we negotiate through the normal channels?
All those 'to be reviewed through NSP' clauses are normal, sensible contract points. It's why (contrary to what BASSA would like you to believe) BA wants and needs Unions. From time to time the world changes and the company cannot negotiate with everyone individually.
All those 'to be reviewed through NSP' clauses are normal, sensible contract points. It's why (contrary to what BASSA would like you to believe) BA wants and needs Unions. From time to time the world changes and the company cannot negotiate with everyone individually.
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Guarantees
There used to be two guarantees:
- death
- taxes
- death
- taxes
- striking cabin crew losing support for their cause
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n68
I agree with ottergirl that you and dave3 are representative of the majority of cabin crew in as much as we are capable of having an adult discussion but from a different perspective. And as you guys say, we may actually learn from each other.
However, I do still have an issue with your point regarding losing our T & C's, as all the comms from BA have clearly stated that we will continue to benefit from these? I believe it's the union that in fact sending out a strong message that we are losing them?
Also, I fully respect your decision to go on strike and can see from your very well reasoned arguments why you have chosen to do so. But in your last post you mentioned that you are 'putting yourself on the line for others'. This I do not accept as for me people on strike are just making the situation worse.
I and many of my colleagues recognised a fair and reasonable offer back in October, which included an extra ticket and a share option scheme. An offer we would have happily accepted, as well as enjoying our current t&c's.
Therefore, strikers are not doing me any favours, they have just made our offer and situation worsen.
However, I do still have an issue with your point regarding losing our T & C's, as all the comms from BA have clearly stated that we will continue to benefit from these? I believe it's the union that in fact sending out a strong message that we are losing them?
Also, I fully respect your decision to go on strike and can see from your very well reasoned arguments why you have chosen to do so. But in your last post you mentioned that you are 'putting yourself on the line for others'. This I do not accept as for me people on strike are just making the situation worse.
I and many of my colleagues recognised a fair and reasonable offer back in October, which included an extra ticket and a share option scheme. An offer we would have happily accepted, as well as enjoying our current t&c's.
Therefore, strikers are not doing me any favours, they have just made our offer and situation worsen.
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can you believe it???
Just spoken to a colleague... she brought back a flight the day after the "breather day". She left LHR on a strike day. When they boarded the aircraft for the return sector, they were all shocked to find that all tea and coffee bags had been torn, sugar sachets torn and emptied, eye wash removed, liquor bars were virtually empty (including back-ups) and threatening notes hidden in the jumpseats.
Apparently the strikers that "had to operate" on the breather day, wanted to make a statement... I say "apparently" because only a stupid person, or bunch of crew would have done such a thing, knowing that an on board form could have been written and all culprits could easily be identified... I hope it was only a bad joke from ground staff or cleaners as -call me naive- I refuse to believe or admit, that a colleague could have done that.
I hope my colleague has lied to me. If the above mentioned story is real, well, it says enough about the qualities of some of us.
Apparently the strikers that "had to operate" on the breather day, wanted to make a statement... I say "apparently" because only a stupid person, or bunch of crew would have done such a thing, knowing that an on board form could have been written and all culprits could easily be identified... I hope it was only a bad joke from ground staff or cleaners as -call me naive- I refuse to believe or admit, that a colleague could have done that.
I hope my colleague has lied to me. If the above mentioned story is real, well, it says enough about the qualities of some of us.
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n68 - if you want to see whats wrong with the BASSA forum, and the behaviour of striking crew, take a look now. On the first page of the Ballot 2010 forum you'll find threads with titles such as "Our wonderful scab colleagues", "Dear two faced", and under the thread title "Apologies to crew member crossing the Bath Road" this lovely comment:
Sincere apologies to the lady in uniform who sadly happened to be crossing the bath Road outside the Aurora Hotel at lunchtime today.
We all passed by in the big Red Bus shouting 'Scab' but of course realised in moments that you had just come back from a nightstop.......and fully support the strike. I wanted to jump off and give you a hug. Sorry that you got caught in the chanting - we all felt dreadful and hope we didn't upset you. We know you are 'one of us' and not one of the spineless weakings.
I will give you that hug when I see you next time at Bedfont.
So as you can see, it's not all harmless joshing, a laugh and a joke.
Sincere apologies to the lady in uniform who sadly happened to be crossing the bath Road outside the Aurora Hotel at lunchtime today.
We all passed by in the big Red Bus shouting 'Scab' but of course realised in moments that you had just come back from a nightstop.......and fully support the strike. I wanted to jump off and give you a hug. Sorry that you got caught in the chanting - we all felt dreadful and hope we didn't upset you. We know you are 'one of us' and not one of the spineless weakings.
I will give you that hug when I see you next time at Bedfont.
So as you can see, it's not all harmless joshing, a laugh and a joke.
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NS 68
I have no reason to justify my decision to work. I looked through the spin at the facts as they stood, including the acceptance by BASSA that new fleet would go ahead, and voted no. I am not shackled by a heat of the moment decision to vote yes. New fleet was acknowledged by Unite long before anyone withdrew their labour, a much inferior deal to the one offered in October has been agreed in principle so please forgive me if I ask, what are you on strike for and what have your actions achieved? Lastly, if there is another ballot do you expect the same percentage of votes in favor of IA or would you agree that voters will seriously consider what voting on way or another actually means?
I have no reason to justify my decision to work. I looked through the spin at the facts as they stood, including the acceptance by BASSA that new fleet would go ahead, and voted no. I am not shackled by a heat of the moment decision to vote yes. New fleet was acknowledged by Unite long before anyone withdrew their labour, a much inferior deal to the one offered in October has been agreed in principle so please forgive me if I ask, what are you on strike for and what have your actions achieved? Lastly, if there is another ballot do you expect the same percentage of votes in favor of IA or would you agree that voters will seriously consider what voting on way or another actually means?
Last edited by the flying nunn; 7th Jun 2010 at 09:25. Reason: addition
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But in your last post you mentioned that you are 'putting yourself on the line for others'. This I do not accept as for me people on strike are just making the situation worse.
I and many of my colleagues recognised a fair and reasonable offer back in October, which included an extra ticket and a share option scheme. An offer we would have happily accepted, as well as enjoying our current t&c's.
Therefore, strikers are not doing me any favours, they have just made our offer and situation worsen.
I and many of my colleagues recognised a fair and reasonable offer back in October, which included an extra ticket and a share option scheme. An offer we would have happily accepted, as well as enjoying our current t&c's.
Therefore, strikers are not doing me any favours, they have just made our offer and situation worsen.
I remember reading about that proposal you mentioned but it was never put on the table for us so I had lost track of all of that.
Everybody's intention though for going on strike is to keep what is good out of our job for all of us to benefit.
I understand what you are saying about disagreeing with Industrial action alltogether and I wouldn't dare say that am putting myself on the line for you but most people don't tell you that..it is more like,I would love to strike but I have got a mortgage to pay-I would like to strike but I was sick for a month,I can 't really be off again- I would like to strike but I had a problem with a passenger which is still under investigation,so I can 't risk it.. I promise you these are conversations I have had-no galley talks- and that's what I see it as putting yourself on the line for others.
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NS68
I respect your point of view but I am horrified about your naivety of the facts with regard to the strikers' behaviour on other forums.
No, it's not. It is Cyber Bullying. It is as bad and as nasty and as childish and as hurtful as face to face bullying. It should be stopped. It has no place in our society or in our community.
Read this government website: Cyberbullying - Laugh at it and you're part of it
Wrong. The BASSA forum is only for BASSA members. Some of these, including people who voted NO in the online ballot, or others who have expressed a different point of view, have now been banned. Crew Forum only accepts members who advocate the BASSA point of view. I know, because I have been banned from there for holding a different view.
It is absurd that you refute our allegations about CrewForum - yet you have never even been on there. Please do not try and trivialise what is a HUGE and HORRENDOUS problem in our community, when you clearly know nothing about it. Our very own ESS Forum was closed down because of the bullying. What does that tell you about people we share the jumpseat with?
It is shameful and we all have to play our part in stopping it. As it says Cyberbullying - Laugh at it and you're part of it
I respect your point of view but I am horrified about your naivety of the facts with regard to the strikers' behaviour on other forums.
But once again, don't read them if they upset you.it 's only words on a laptop screen.
Read this government website: Cyberbullying - Laugh at it and you're part of it
Access to forum and bassa forums are for everybody. Anybody could have written those messages..
It is absurd that you refute our allegations about CrewForum - yet you have never even been on there. Please do not try and trivialise what is a HUGE and HORRENDOUS problem in our community, when you clearly know nothing about it. Our very own ESS Forum was closed down because of the bullying. What does that tell you about people we share the jumpseat with?
It is shameful and we all have to play our part in stopping it. As it says Cyberbullying - Laugh at it and you're part of it
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It is absurd that you refute our allegations about CrewForum - yet you have never even been on there. Please do not try and trivialise what is a HUGE and HORRENDOUS problem in our community, when you clearly know nothing about it. Our very own ESS Forum was closed down because of the bullying. What does that tell you about people we share the jumpseat with?
!I am not trying to trivialize anything,I am just not aware it is such a big problem.I really see it just as words on a laptop screen.What can I do? I was just trying to help that person that felt intimidated by saying if it hurts don't read it.You have got the choice.And I also added to report anything if she wanted to and if it made her feel better.
It is shameful and we all have to play our part in stopping it
eye wash removed
You aren't getting at the company or anyone in particular.
The person who needs the eye wash in a hurry could be you or a ground engineer going about his normal duties.
I'm sure that, if indeed this happened, the perpetrator is in a vanishingly small minority.
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no one has any proof at who took the eye wash off or even if it happened ,who left notes in jump suits, who left oxy bottles on.. yes crew on the bassa forum are upset.. you have to admit the papers are full of hate for striking crew and they are given to our pax to read everyday... where do you think they are getting their info from??.
All our laundry has been washed in public it has become so embarassing.
we had the wall in water side.. I saw that one with my own eyes..
we could go. on and on and on.. every time a comment is made or a wrong look is given or you go on a forum that you know you will disagree with it will end up with shouting "report it "! "send the police to their doors" "sack them"... You know what is out there so stop reading it if its going to upset you, concentrate on making this work.. if we keep looking backwards we can never move forwards.. we know that negative posts will continue to be placed on the forums.. lets try and turn them into positives..
All our laundry has been washed in public it has become so embarassing.
we had the wall in water side.. I saw that one with my own eyes..
we could go. on and on and on.. every time a comment is made or a wrong look is given or you go on a forum that you know you will disagree with it will end up with shouting "report it "! "send the police to their doors" "sack them"... You know what is out there so stop reading it if its going to upset you, concentrate on making this work.. if we keep looking backwards we can never move forwards.. we know that negative posts will continue to be placed on the forums.. lets try and turn them into positives..
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'getting along'
Further to my previous posts, I have come to the conclusion, by looking at the more moderate tones of some of the strikers that maybe we can get along as one team, sooner rather than later.
However, upon reading D.H's belligerant 'us v BA', I have to say, all those that that are onside with his rants surely should not return to this airline.
These are of course a minority, I just hope BA can ascertain such perpetrators and ensure they are sidelined one way or another.
We cannot move on with threats of IA by these disloyal militants.
However, upon reading D.H's belligerant 'us v BA', I have to say, all those that that are onside with his rants surely should not return to this airline.
These are of course a minority, I just hope BA can ascertain such perpetrators and ensure they are sidelined one way or another.
We cannot move on with threats of IA by these disloyal militants.
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Quote from posting on SLF thread:
"Reading about possible sabotage on the other thread makes me wonder if I should ever fly with these guys again"
This is scary, and should ring alarm bells for us all!
The dispute seems to have denigrated into nothing but a BASSA vs WW (not even BA!) battle now. DH's daily dose of nonsense just seems to confirm that. It is patently obvious that the 'hard core' care nothing about BA's survival and would probably gloat at it's demise.
There are a lot of us whose livelihoods and pensions depend on BA's success. I hope that WW is quick and brutal about getting out the poisonous few, and letting the majority who want to, start rebuilding their relationships.
"Reading about possible sabotage on the other thread makes me wonder if I should ever fly with these guys again"
This is scary, and should ring alarm bells for us all!
The dispute seems to have denigrated into nothing but a BASSA vs WW (not even BA!) battle now. DH's daily dose of nonsense just seems to confirm that. It is patently obvious that the 'hard core' care nothing about BA's survival and would probably gloat at it's demise.
There are a lot of us whose livelihoods and pensions depend on BA's success. I hope that WW is quick and brutal about getting out the poisonous few, and letting the majority who want to, start rebuilding their relationships.
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Dave 3
Hello Dave 3,
First of all thanks so much for putting another side to the coin in a reasonable and honest way. Please stick with it and be prepared for quite a lot of questioning as previously all we have had is soundbites and kids coming along and stamping thier feet.
From what you describe on what you are losing out Im sorry but everyone else at BA has gone through this and accepeted that this is what is needed. That is why most people have a lack of understanding as to why the Cabin Crew should be any different. I dont know any single department within BA that has had to take a hit. From call centres, Management,Sales, Procurement,Engineering and the Pilots. Everyone has looked at the Facts !! and said well, we need to pull together, get through this and see what we can achieve when we get through the other side. Those that have not wanted to do this have either left like Cabin Crew as psrt of a Voluntary redundancy Scheme or left.
I think that is why there is so much Haterd (yes I dont use it lightly) from other departments. This is from a historical and stereotype that Cabin Crew have had, well we cant ask the crew to do something they will just throw thier toys out of the pram. Yes we do all drink coffee and plane spot at Waterworld as well !!
The world has moved on and unfourtaunltly for some crew they are going to have to accept that fact. Some will move on, some will stay. I hope that the small minority that think that BASSA pay thier wages and not BA decide that they have had enough and move on.
If you ask most people what they think of the strike, they are jsut so confused as to why you are actually striking. People within BA just see it as the above and that BASSA as per usual are refusing anything that seems as a reasonable offer as its not any good for them. within the industry, its even worse. Most people I talk to just think we should sack the lot of you and move on. Outside of the industry its mainly the same opinion, I was out with a group of friends at the weekend, none of them work in the industry. Most were asking just the plain Question WHY, they just dont get it.
So Dave WHY?
You must have come across this before, most crew I have asked after 10 minutes just do not know why. Ive heard all the favourites. T5,Price fixing, BA are making the figures up, WW is a maniac and wants to change us into a low cost carrier, WW is a Liar, No one respects crew anymore, We are the hardest working crew in the world, My Bassa rep told me to vote yes and unless I did we would be on the minimum wage ! The list is endless and Im sure more people on here copuld add more.
What I very rarely hear is the actual reason why, some people like yorself are able to put a valid point across. But unfourtuantly you are the smallst minority of all the strikers.
Good luck
First of all thanks so much for putting another side to the coin in a reasonable and honest way. Please stick with it and be prepared for quite a lot of questioning as previously all we have had is soundbites and kids coming along and stamping thier feet.
From what you describe on what you are losing out Im sorry but everyone else at BA has gone through this and accepeted that this is what is needed. That is why most people have a lack of understanding as to why the Cabin Crew should be any different. I dont know any single department within BA that has had to take a hit. From call centres, Management,Sales, Procurement,Engineering and the Pilots. Everyone has looked at the Facts !! and said well, we need to pull together, get through this and see what we can achieve when we get through the other side. Those that have not wanted to do this have either left like Cabin Crew as psrt of a Voluntary redundancy Scheme or left.
I think that is why there is so much Haterd (yes I dont use it lightly) from other departments. This is from a historical and stereotype that Cabin Crew have had, well we cant ask the crew to do something they will just throw thier toys out of the pram. Yes we do all drink coffee and plane spot at Waterworld as well !!
The world has moved on and unfourtaunltly for some crew they are going to have to accept that fact. Some will move on, some will stay. I hope that the small minority that think that BASSA pay thier wages and not BA decide that they have had enough and move on.
If you ask most people what they think of the strike, they are jsut so confused as to why you are actually striking. People within BA just see it as the above and that BASSA as per usual are refusing anything that seems as a reasonable offer as its not any good for them. within the industry, its even worse. Most people I talk to just think we should sack the lot of you and move on. Outside of the industry its mainly the same opinion, I was out with a group of friends at the weekend, none of them work in the industry. Most were asking just the plain Question WHY, they just dont get it.
So Dave WHY?
You must have come across this before, most crew I have asked after 10 minutes just do not know why. Ive heard all the favourites. T5,Price fixing, BA are making the figures up, WW is a maniac and wants to change us into a low cost carrier, WW is a Liar, No one respects crew anymore, We are the hardest working crew in the world, My Bassa rep told me to vote yes and unless I did we would be on the minimum wage ! The list is endless and Im sure more people on here copuld add more.
What I very rarely hear is the actual reason why, some people like yorself are able to put a valid point across. But unfourtuantly you are the smallst minority of all the strikers.
Good luck