British Airways vs. BASSA (Airline Staff Only)

[report call sign]

EDDY

Very balanced posting and i agree on many points you make, well!

Jusat one thing
LEGALLY you are required to inform the UNION as well as pay services, that you wish to resign
informing payservices only is not Leaving the union
you MUST inform the union themselves, yourself! (E mail will do)

[jetset lady]

I'm sorry but I agree with Eddy. Listening to what the crew are saying, you will struggle to achieve a membership of any size all the while you refuse to reveal your identity. For one, as you know, crew are very mistrusting at the moment and some are still convinced that PCCC has management roots. For the record, I do know that this is untrue. Secondly, they are asking how you will stand up for them if you can't even face BASSA.

Now I can't actually provide solid evidence for you on the above but unfortunately, I am getting to hear a lot of what crew are saying with regards PCCC. As you and others probably guessed way back when, I am the one that was "outed" on a well known forum for supposedly being a foundee member. Even now, crew are still aproaching me asking questions, despite my denials. So please don't insult me by coming back with how worried you are about your safety. Been there, got the teeshirt! Crew will believe what they want to believe. I can deny it till I'm blue in the face but it's not going to make a difference. As for asking how many crew don't know who the Amicus/BASSA reps are, at least the information is freely available to them if they want to find out.

I really hope you do make something of PCCC. God knows, we need all the help we can get right now but until you're willing to stand up and be counted, I fear nothing will come of it.

[Slickster]

I think the key word here is "transparency". It's all very well, people coming on here reckoning they "do all right" when all is averaged out. Do you? Can you prove that to me? Didn't think so.

From what I saw, my ex (CC) got a hell of a good roster, a lot of the time. It was a standing joke with us, that she was shagging a scheduler. On the other hand, other CC friends I have hadn't had a sniff of her trips for years.

Now, I might be wrong or I might be right, but a transparent system would solve all the arguing, wouldn't it? But BASSA don't seem to want that. I wonder why?

[wiggy]

Listening to what the crew are saying, you will struggle to achieve a membership of any size all the while you refuse to reveal your identity.

Looking at this from the outside, so to speak, I agree with Jetset Lady and other commentators such as Eddy. From the conversations I've been involved in there are a significant number of Cabin crew around who would be interested in an alternative representative body. However Cabin crew by their nature are "people people" and they're not going to jump ship and join some abstract organisation, they need to know who's involved in the PCCC.

[TopBunk]

I can understand peoples reluctance to embrace the PCCC without knowing who they are, but I believe it is pointless to announce anything more right now.

There is nothing that the PCCC can achieve in the current dispute to resolve it / change the outcome. It is therefore only right and proper that in the vacuum created by the detruction of BASSA in a few weeks time when the cabin crew are analysing what went wrong, that the PCCC formally announce themselves with their proposals for the way forward and put themselves on an election platform.

[fred737]

Latest from Bassa

>
> Beginning to think the strike is all about "staff travel" and that the
> offer isn't so bad?
>
> Maybe you even voted to accept it, or are beginning to think, as the
> strike dates approach and the threats increase, that it may be easier
> to
> give up.
>
> Then it's time to explain exactly what you would have been be
> accepting.
>
> Though the dispute is about imposition, British Airways has insisted
> that
> several other major items must be given before any settlement of this
> dispute. None of these are particularly to your benefit.
>
> What does Mr. Walsh get in his "fair" offer, and what do you get? Make
> up
> your own mind.
>
> There is no contractual right to any of these points, there also is no
> agreement - just their words on a piece of paper and an intent. You
> would
> need to decide how much you trust those words, because words are all
> you
> will have, nothing more.
>
> * Cost saving
>
> A commitment to provide an ongoing saving per year of GBP124 million.
> This means continued cuts as the previous cuts decline in value.
>
> * Pay
>
> It is, in effect, a four-year deal. Two years frozen and two years
> capped
> at inflation. This amounts to a 6% pay cut.
>
> * New Fleet
>
> Must be agreed and introduced. No future recruitment to ALL existing
> fleets as people leave. The resulting recruitment goes to new fleet as
> it
> grows. Our routes will then move to new fleet season by season.
>
> There is no agreement to cover how many, or how fast, or which routes
> move. This will be at the sole discretion of British Airways and will
> be
> on a commercial (cost) basis. This is projected to be 20% of routes
> within
> 18 months.
>
> New Fleet crew are already flying alongside you on a different
> agreement -
> less days off, hourly pay etc. How long will you survive on your
> current
> fleet and agreement? Nobody knows.
>
> * Monthly Travel payment
>
> No guaranteed agreement whatsoever. How long will this continue to be
> paid, when half our routes have moved to new fleet? Will this then also
> be
> cut by 50% and so on? If this is all about cost cutting then it's
> highly
> unlikely this will be paid for very long.
>
> * Crew complements
>
> Over 1200 were removed, 184 would be returned. When, where and who
> would
> again be at British Airways sole discretion. You will pay for these
> crew
> with the removal of language and telephone allowance, removal of EDR
> days,
> variable pay freeze, meal allowance freeze and crew food downgrade.
>
> * Promotion
>
> How, when and if this would happen in the future on existing fleets is
> simply not fully explained. What is explained is that there will be
> plenty of opportunities on the new fleet. How will this happen with
> only
> one supervisory grade onboard?
>
> * Assurances
>
> There are some, but these have been made specifically around
> "contractual"
> items only. This means current basic pay and leave. The rest, days-off
> down route, MBTs, all your flying agreements, variable pay etc British
> Airways believes to be non contractual and so are NOT protected.
>
> * Part-time
>
> Everybody who wants part-time of any type will of course get it, which
> is
> good. The downside being that every single resulting vacancy goes to
> new
> fleet and our work with them.
>
> * Your employment rights
>
> Will be downgraded with severely reduced protections around
> disciplinary
> and grievance procedures and reduced rights to appeal any decisions.
>
> * Redeployment agreement
>
> The new redeployment agreement will give British Airways the right to
> move
> you to any part of the business that they see fit. If your base and
> fleet
> are closed down, you do not have to be offered a role similar to your
> current role. If you refuse the offer, you will be put on the 'new'
> careerlink, given three months to find a job, and if you fail, your
> contract with British Airways will be terminated.
>
> * Removal of current Trade Union recognition and facilities
> agreement
>
> In effect, this would end the trade union recognition in British
> Airways
> that you have known for your entire flying career.
>
> * Litigation
>
> British Airways insist, as a precondition to their proposal, that all
> court cases against them for the loss of earnings, staff travel and for
> breach of contract by the imposed removal of a crewmember, must be
> dropped.
>
> Sound good to you so far? Well, if all this is agreed and then fully
> implemented to British Airways' full and total satisfaction, then, and
> only then, at their total discretion, would they reinstate staff travel
> for strikers - but with NO seniority and NO length of service tickets.
>
> So what is in it for you?
>
> ABSOLUTLEY NOTHING if we are brutally honest. But you will have to
> make
> up your own mind on that one, come Tuesday 18th May. This is about
> changes
> so huge and far reaching that they will change everything you thought
> you
> knew about flying forever. If we do not secure a fair agreement, with
> words that can be trusted now, we never will do so again.
>
> Far from being an intransigent trade union, as Mr. Walsh loves to
> portray
> any union that questions his strategy, Unite was always keen to avoid
> unnecessary disruption for both you and BA customers, if at all
> possible.
> So much so that they even offered to "recommend" an acceptance of this
> deal if Mr. Walsh acted as though he intended to honour his own words
> in
> this offer, and also fully reinstated staff travel - but Willie Walsh
> refused.
>
> We hope that you can see this is not just about staff travel for us as
> crew, but for Mr. Walsh it clearly is, he is using it as hostage to get
> everything he wanted in the first place. He is making it seem a
> magnanimous gesture, to offer partially back what he calculatingly had
> taken away! It is a smoke screen; to slip in unnoticed all that he
> wanted
> in the first place! To risk a three week strike and all the heartache
> that
> goes with it, to gamble on the future of our airline to protect his own
> ill-advised public statements on punishing people is reckless and shows
> a
> lack of true statesmanship, as befits his position.
>
> Backing BA? To do what? This ill-advised strategy is ruining the best
> airline in the world for all of us.
>
> It will not be long before people wake up to the fact that Mr. Walsh is
> the problem not the solution.
>

[sk8erboi]

Tony Woodley, the joint general secretary of Unite, told the BBC he would "seriously consider" calling it off.

"You would have to be stupid to want to ground planes that are going nowhere anyway," he said.

That's very big of you! Means everyone gets paid too!

[report call sign]

Mr Woodleys strike game tricks hey!
think he can turn it on and off like a light bulb does he
WELL! hes gonna get one hell of a smacking shock!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[jockmctavish]

Hiflyer14

Sweeping? Maybe? Inaccurate?

Well how many cabin crew have signed up so far?

[report call sign]

signed up to what may I ask?

[Beagle9]

Fred737

Question for you. I ask this as cc myself.

When, in the last 15 months, have BASSA come up with a realistic, costed, ALTERNATIVE proposal to the knub of the problem - long term cabin crew costs being significantly higher than rival quality, longhaul and shorthaul airlines?

Their only proposal (the one that they persuaded the membership on a show of hands to be the ONLY proposal they would accept discussions around) was mainly short term and was valued by PWC at one third of what they claimed. That, I'm afraid, was either:

a. Breathtakingly incompetent b. Cynically dishonest. There is, I'm afraid, no middle ground on that one.

So, I say again, when has BASSA proposed a workable alternative to New Fleet?

Do they REALLY believe that we can carry on into the future as we are?

[Eddy]

So come on : what are our honest predictions for Monday?

Will BA win the injunction?

[MrBernoulli]

Will BA win the injunction?

I don't expect to lose my money.

And I didn't bet on a union .....

[Hotel Mode]

So come on : what are our honest predictions for Monday?

Will BA win the injunction?

Difficult to say. Looking like BASSA did balls it up again but it may just be seen as a technicality.

4 options

1 - Unite win outright, no injunction and judgement made in their favour - We're in the same position we were yesterday morning, so no loss to BA

2 - BA fail to get injunction but judgement reserved for full trial. Unite now liable for damages and crew liable to get sacked if they strike and subsequent judgement goes against them. Disaster for Unite as they cant call strikes off due 12 week rule.

3 - BA get injunction and judgment reserved. Still disaster for Unite. Strikes off and long legal case ahead. Meanwhile yet another ballot has to be called, but may be deemed to be a continuation of previous one so the protected 12 weeks wont apply.

4 - BA Win, injunction given and judgement for BA - Unite liable for damages for first strike and crew at risk of retrospective removal. (cant see BA doing this last bit??)

Once again, BASSA have lost before they've even started. BA seem not to do anything without a plan.

If Tony Woodley is daft enough to cancel the strikes for the ash, I'd imagine BA will be in court for damages there too unless its part of a settlement.

[essessdeedee]

gr8

I have been involved in every CC recuitment campaign in the past five years

you must have taken over where I left off then. It looks like we could both be right

[ottergirl]

The pilots' bidding works on a seniority based system. We all accept that we will have more control over our roster and greater ability to go to 'better' destinations as time goes on, it's a good system.

When we first introduced Carmen (the crew bidding system) we could have gone down the seniority bidding route but it was deemed that with crew post 97 on considerably less basic pay it would not be fair for them to also have the least chance of bidding to maximise their earnings. This two-tier pay system is why we do not have the senior crew doing all the best trips! Pilots are all on one pay scale.

[Litebulbs]

Originally Posted by Hotel Mode

Once again, BASSA have lost before they've even started. BA seem not to do anything without a plan.

That will only be true if it is not option 1 of your post.

[From Tunbridge Wells]

So come on : what are our honest predictions for Monday?

Will BA win the injunction?

I believe they will

[flybymerchant]

When we first introduced Carmen (the crew bidding system) we could have gone down the seniority bidding route but it was deemed that with crew post 97 on considerably less basic pay it would not be fair for them to also have the least chance of bidding to maximise their earnings. This two-tier pay system is why we do not have the senior crew doing all the best trips! Pilots are all on one pay scale.

Sorry, I think my point was that therein lies lots of the unfairness in the current system....people should by all means be paid that little bit extra each year than the previous based on experience/seniority, but the day-to-day work, that we all have to do should carry an element of standard pay, so that the senior people can't double their advantage, or if they're bassa reps, triple it.

Cabin Crew seem to spend so long looking at what the pilots have and complaining, so why has no-one suggested copying the sensible parts of their agreements for the better good of the majority of cabin crew?

[AtlasDrawer]

Did anyone look at the ESS message from BA about the court injunction (on the news section) and how the crew that decide to go on strike could have 'limited protection' (BA's words not mine)if the strike was deemed to be illegal?. That would make you seriously question whether going on strike is a great idea? I , obviously plan on going in to work but if I was planning on going on strike , after reading that I would be seriously worried and seeking legal clarification from the union.

As I no longer have access to the BASSA website, can anyone clarify for me if this statement from BA is being addressed?

AD