British Airways vs. BASSA (Airline Staff Only)

[The Blu Riband]

I wonder if BA will bother seeking Bassa cooperation with the disruption agreements?

[MrBunker]

TripleX,

Clearly you do. That's not in doubt. What you don't appear to have, along with a number of pro-BASSA posters on here (Eddy, MissM et al not included) is either the ability or the willingness to back up your opinions with reason and facts. What, other than a brief moment of asinine vapidity, did your comment bring to the debate then? At best it was a clumsy obtuse attempt to imply something demeaning about the character of BA flight crew. In fact, on reflection, that's about all it seemed to me to be.

That's the big problem I find when trying to get to the heart of the matter here, there's so few able/willing, or perhaps both, to articulate what it is that actually drives them to a certain course of action. Replies like "yeah, yeah, yeah" don't do much than suggest to many that you aren't here to advance your argument, perhaps, dare I say it, because it isn't fully formed in your own mind. Surely, if it were, you'd be happy to point out the errors in the other side of the debate?

Or is it simply a sufficient standard of evidence in your mind to believe that WW is evil, the pilots are all backstabbers and on a basis of judging evidence it needs no more analytical weighing-up than BASSA good, BA bad?

Depressing really, if that's the best we can expect in attempting to unravel the concerns behind this industrial action. MissM and Eddy put you to shame in this regard.

MrB

[Pornpants1]

I wonder if BA will bother seeking Bassa cooperation with the disruption agreements?

Blu Riband, BA don't need to, any written or verbal instructions given by BASSA to cabin crew to work to industrial agreements, will be seen as an "unofficial work to rule".

You will remember BA used this to their advantage in January during the snow disruption.

HTH

[Tiramisu]

In the meantime, the intimidation continues.

Some of us who came to work are being completely ostracised. A bit unfortunate considering we aren't members of BASSA or Amicus. Colleagues who I worked with and mentored when they were Pursers are refusing to talk to me or even look at me, all very unnecessary and a bit juvenile in my opinion.
I respect crew who withdrew their labour and striked and expect the same in return, just unfortunate some of them have such a bad attitude.

An observation on the flights I have operated since the strike is that the crew who came to work seem content and generally happy, and those who striked seem very troubled. I'm not saying they are not performing at work, they are, but they are doing the bare minimum and it's obvious in their interaction with colleagues and customers.

On 'other' forums, threads titled 'Scab CSDs' and 'Hello Willy...... I'm a Strikebreaker' amongst others, belittle and humiliate well respected colleagues and even mention their families. This is the behaviour of crew who consider themselves to be the best cabin crew in the world. I don't think so and how very pathetic.


I'm BA cabin crew and the above represent my personal views and not those of my employer.

[OverFlare]

I am calling in all of you pilots and crew backing BA to show some support to BA.

BA is in need of your support again, so why not volunteering to help them today ?

I volunteered - and was trained - to act as cabin crew. How do you think that might help in the current situation with the ash cloud?

This is the behaviour of crew who consider themselves to be the best cabin crew in the world.

This has always been the problem with BA cabin crew: the standards are exceptionally variable. The CSD I worked with over the strike period was probably one of the most professional and customer focused cabin crew I've ever come across. Many of BA's cabin crew are similar.

But there are a lot who are rubbish - who complain at every customer call bell; who can't wait to get to crew rest but don't help out in other cabins. These are the ones BA really need to get rid of somehow as, overall (and I write as someone who has flown on many many airlines), these people can - and often do - drag the experience down to a very mediocre level for the passengers.

[MissM]

M.Mouse

I have already answered it several times. Take for instance our signed agreement back in 2007 which we had issues with in 2008 because BA failed to honor it.

Beagle9

In print doesn't seem to mean too much to BA unfortunately There's not a chance that they will allow us on the other fleets to remain as they are once they have a cheaper fleet up and running. It would like the case with Qantas and Jetstar. That's the point with New Fleet to take operating costs down but BASSA has realised that any deal with BA would have to include it.

HiFlyer14

Have I had a satisfactory response? Not all the time but BASSA has done some very good things to us which I appreciate. What steps have I taken on issues I don't agree with? I usually go against them, like handing out hot towels despite being told not to!

[MrBunker]

Originally Posted by MissM

Beagle9

In print doesn't seem to mean too much to BA unfortunately There's not a chance that they will allow us on the other fleets to remain as they are once they have a cheaper fleet up and running. It would like the case with Qantas and Jetstar. That's the point with New Fleet to take operating costs down but BASSA has realised that any deal with BA would have to include it.

MissM, if I may, I think that's the nub of the problem. Your fears, as expressed above, seem to be so deep-rooted that there's simply no way of allaying them for you. Consequently, if many think as you do, it's no trouble for BASSA to whip up people into an almost paranoid frenzy. I'd like to ask, then, if you feel that BA won't honour any written agreements as you intimate in your first sentence, then why would the offer made by BASSA (which allowed for New Fleet) be any different? At the end of the day, agreements will always be revisited, amended and made fit for the time in which they operate. I think the difference here is that BASSA, whilst doing their damndest to defend existing crew terms and conditions have developed somewhat of a die in a ditch mentality to any change. Whilst I grant you that BA don't always engender a feeling of trust, worth or loyalty in their staff, I think, equally, BASSA need to look at how they go about doing business. Banging the drum (both literally and metaphorically) and saying no all the time isn't a model of union representation that seems fit for purpose into the 21st century. I don't believe for one minute from the postings you made that you subscribe to the over-simplified BASSA rhetoric of "you're either with us or against us", and so I'd ask you, after numerous failed court cases brought by Unite/BASSA, would you agree that, perhaps, the approach taken in trying to defend your terms, this time round has been, thus far, unsuccessful?

I can't pretend that I, as you've admitted to with BASSA, am a fan of every decision that BALPA make but I will say that I prefer their progressive approach to change, and also that they endeavour to be business partners in their dealings with BA, rather than assuming the more militant model that seems to be the Unite way.

BASSA have done admirable work in some respects in retaining an enviable set of employment conditions for their membership but (there had to be one, didn't there!) the danger of such a resolute refusal to embrace continuous change is that one day, somewhere down the line, a large and fundamental shift might come along. It looks like that time is now, and thus, if BA get to where they need to be to survive and prosper in future trading conditions, those staff groups that haven't evolved as symbiotically with the business, will receive a relatively unpleasant surprise. What saddens me is that less than a year ago, BASSA had the chance to take what seemed to me a pretty good deal and could then have set about ameliorating the change at a slower pace, instead of the fait accompli they now find themselves presented with by both BA and their own intransigence.

MrB

[triple x]

I volunteered - and was trained - to act as cabin crew. How do you think that might help in the current situation with the ash cloud?

is that a joke ? BA is asking for volunteers to help. U dont need to be trained to volunteers for certain jobs. I have volunteered in the past to help and I did not need train.

This only shows that you guys (pilots) are really backing BA when it suits you

[Eddy]

I think Triple X makes a fair point here.

BA is looking for floorwalkers and customer hosts to help out at the airport and these are largely un-skilled jobs (i.e. you don't need specific training to undertake them). The company is also looking for ticketing and re-booking staff and these involve the use of Amadeus so unless you know your commands, you wouldn't be much use.

I know my Amadeus commands from my previous job but am not nearly confident enough that I'd be able to help with the level of ability they would need in these challenging circumstances.

But Triple X, as I said, does have a point. Pilots could head to the terminals and dish out letters (which most of the regular staff are doing already) if they wanted to help out.

That said, I spent a couple of hours in the airport this morning (not helping, just looking and visiting someone - he reads, so hello!) and things were incredibly calm and well organised.

I came in from Entebbe yesterday and have an early flight on Saturday so am staying down in London for my days off and I saw a family in T5 today I'd flown in yesterday and who were meant to be heading to YYZ today. I helped them out by calling the 0800 number on my phone (they didn't have the ability to call from theirs) and by offering other advice, but beyond that I actually don't think they need much help in the terminals.

[essessdeedee]

xxx

BA is asking for volunteers to help. U dont need to be trained to volunteers for certain jobs.

If you looked close enough BA were looking for volunteers with ticketing skills. Considered as specialist knowledge.

[Timothy Claypole]

Does anybody back BA when it doesn't suit them?

[3Greens]

"Does anybody back BA when it doesn't suit them?"

yes they do. I myself had several 400 mile round trips during the two strikes. Stood down on all occassions and drove home afterwards costing me £40 diesel. this was all during my leave which i agreed to move to help out. the leave was considered to be a prime slot as over the easter hols. Granted i will get it back but it is likely that it will be at a time of BA's choosing

[Timothy Claypole]

Nice to see our crew are backing BA too:

I'm sure we'll be able to use this volcanic ash to our advantage.

THIS IS OUR CHANCE TO BEAT HIM,,,,,TW SHOULD TELL WW THAT IF HE DOESN'T COMPROMISE WITH A DEAL TODAY OR LATEST TOMORROW WE WILL GO ON STRIKE AGAIN IN 7 DAYS TIME...THEY ARE NOT GOING TO BE ABLE TO PUT THE SERVICE BACK TO NORMAL BEFORE WE STRIKE AGAIN AND DISRUPT IT BADLY.....SO DON'T U THINK GUYS THIS IS THE TIME TO BACKFIRE???????
PLEASE BASSA DO SOMETHING TAKE THIS OPPORTUNITY TO BRING HIM DOWN TO THE REAL WORLD.
PLEASE
PLEASE

Clearly the BASSA diehards cannot understand that if BA goes under it's bad news for them.

[Matt101]

Originally Posted by Timothy Claypole

Does anybody back BA when it doesn't suit them?

I volunteered on a couple of occasions at LHR during fog/snow/leaves on the runway disruption. I was the only CC member there and there were several pilots over the two day period. Mainly office staff though.

It was actually quite difficult to volunteer due to rest periods prior to next duty etc.

Worthwhile experience though, sadistically I used to find some of it quite exciting and a different challenge. Pax obviously less excited by the whole thing and so anything we can do to help is often appreciated.

Anyway point was I have seen pilots on the terminal floors before.

[Eddy]

Originally Posted by Matt101

I volunteered on a couple of occasions at LHR during fog/snow/leaves on the runway disruption. I was the only CC member there and there were several pilots over the two day period. Mainly office staff though.

It was actually quite difficult to volunteer due to rest periods prior to next duty etc.

Hi Matt,

I've also volunteered to help in the terminal a few times. Last time was February last year during the Great Snow of 2009.

It saddens me that helping in the terminals is a taboo subject to talk about and almost something to be ashamed of according to a minority of one's cabin crew colleagues.

But I enjoyed helping out and the one thing that kept me going was when I looked at all the poor people who were disrupted and I thought "that could be my mum, or my gran - and I wouldn't want them to be abandoned".

I think BA's habit of asking for volunteers is pretty poor, to be honest - the company should be prepared to pay even a nominal sum to thank those who come in on days off for doing so - but I don't really volunteer specifically to help the company, I do it to help the customers because god knows when it'll be someone I know who needs the help.

[MissM]

Do they really need any volunteers? I know two who wanted to volunteer but said they weren't needed.

MrBunker

I know that I have very little faith in management and either deal will have my fair share of suspiciousness which is going to cause some problems.

The only reason why BASSA includes New Fleet in their proposal is because they know BA will go ahead with it whether we like it or not. By including it in their deal they can get control of it. They could propose a 30% pay cut to BA and they still won't accept it.

Do I fully agree with how BASSA has dealt with this? No, of course not and they have in the past year done some serious damage which definitely hasn't been to our benefit. They are acting out of belief and what they think is best for us members. They want us to have a good atmosphere and work to some of the best terms and conditions.

Do I agree to their hand vote to no further negotiations last year? No. Do I agree to our chairman calling our CEO the c-word? No. Do I agree to them saying to us not to do any hot towels? No. Do I agree to some members screaming outside of Arora Hotel? No. So, people can see that I don't always agree with BASSA. Still, I don't have enough faith to abandon them and go over to BA because they have let us down in the past and failed to honor existing and signed agreements. I keep coming back to this but that's because where the problem lies. I want BA to survive and succeed and to be one of the best airlines. I think all of us do even though we have been striking for a whole week in total.

There was a good deal on the table last year even though there probably were loopholes in it. The issue is that last year very few probably thought it would go as far as this and that's why it was fine to refuse.

[MrBunker]

MissM,

But as I said, there's the point. Well, two, actually.

Firstly, whether it be BASSA or BA that proposes NewFleet, there will, at the end of the debacle, be an agreement pertaining to the introduction and running of that fleet. That agreement, will, as with all others, be subject to continuing scrutiny from both unions and the ever-present pressures of business. The point here, I think is that it's simply a case that, even if BA had proposed the exact same deal as BASSA did, it would still have been rejected, simply because it was BA and not BASSA proposing it. To me, that's where rational thought departs and it becomes a decision based purely on emotion.

Secondly, your point about the rejection of last June's offer being fine because no-one thought it'd get that far suggests that BASSA treat their membership as a pawn in their brinkmanship. In essence, what you suggest to me there is that it was a gamble, BASSA bluffed and now seem a little startled that, thus far the CEO of the airline (trust him, or not) has followed through on every thing he said he would in the event of BASSA striking. I'd say that I wouldn't base my industrial decisions on the basis of rejection because it'll never get that far. Smacks very much of the notion that a strong strike mandate will force BA back to the table but no strike will be necessary. No matter who's figures you elect to believe I think it's clear that not all YES voters would have or did follow through on that vote and manned a picket line.

It's a new age, whether for BA or wider trades-unionism (depending on how much quasi-religious fervour BASSA elect to inject into this dispute). The idea that the answer is no before even knowing the question is long departed. The wider UK can't afford to function under such an economically uncompetitive umbrella where disgruntled staff groups pull the kind of stunts BASSA have been running for nigh on 12 months. Negotiations were there from the start, a deadline was set and a form of share recompense was on the table so that BASSA could move their style of relationship forward, recognising that the assistance in the bad times would be rewarded on a profit (and other factors) related mechanism. But a vocal show of hands (which I acknowledge you do not support) said no to negotiation because, it seems to me, the old style of saying no again and again was so ingrained that they failed to see the edge of the cliff they marched hand in hand towards.

I apologise if the above is a little over-emotive but I do fervently believe that this was utterly avoidable at all times and that you could have come out with a pretty acceptable deal that would have still left you at or near the top of your respective market labour rates.

Cooler heads need to prevail than those writing the overwrought BASSA missives blaming everyone around them like a child, not to mention the shedding of the notion that BASSA are the guardians of the BA brand and, thus, can dictate what BA can or cannot do on board. You mention the hot towels fiasco in an earlier post (and I note, you treat it as such) - it's scarcely credible how much bluster and grief my wife received from pro-BASSA crew about the "disgrace" of BA imposing a WT+ hot towel service without the union's permission. If it weren't true it'd be a risible parody. But it is.

MrB

[nurjio]

The last few exchanges between MrBunker and MissM have been very revealing - thank you. The best of PPruNe, IMHO.

In particular, MissM, well done. You have explained your mindset pretty damn well and I admire you for explaining your beliefs despite some vitriolic assaults by the anti-BASSA brigade - me included.

nurj

PS.....Maybe we should rename that Icelandic volcano, Mount Malone.

[MrBunker]

Nurjio,

Thanks for that. I'd like to echo what he says in respect to your posts MissM. You, unlike so many people on here, provide a cogent, considered reply to questions and, to a greater extent than before, I'm beginning to understand, if not yet agree with, where you're coming from.

Can I put a couple of thoughts on the table? The key element to me that I think I've identified for you as a problem is an historically proven mistrust of BA and the management of same. Would that be a fair statement? If so, can I make one suggestion? At some point an agreement must be reached if we're to avoid the messier alternatives of either bankruptcy or notice being served on contracts. To reach that agreement, even the most cynical of BASSA supporters has to engender a degree of trust in that agreement for it to function. Would that be fair? I suppose what I'm saying is that for BA to return to the proud, successful and great airline to work for (as you've identified and I dimly remember also!) is that sooner or later trust has to be rebuilt. That will have to come, cautiously at first, from both sides and subsequently the actions of both those sides will dictate the ruggedness and survivability of that trust. A mutually beneficial framework, fit for purpose in the modern economic era can only serve to benefit all interested parties, from shareholders to customers, via management and employees.

The hard part for you, I'll wager, is to overcome your natural mistrust of BA and play your part in extending that metaphorical hand from the cabin crew side so we can all begin tearing down the bitter walls that divide so many parts of this airline - and I'd say the same to a senior manager if they were on here.

I feel this is a must if, to use a (sort of) topical analogy, we're to avoid our own Ragnarok.

All the best,

MrB

[Litebulbs]

MissM,

I don't know if you have been before, but could you see yourself as a rep in the future?