British Airways vs. BASSA (Airline Staff Only)
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Many recent posts contain speculation about when new fleet will start, how it will start and how existing crew will have to sign new contracts. Most of the detail are contrary to what our investors were advised at the recent Investor day and what Bill and Willie are telling crew in person. Wild speculations based on rumour lacking facts and specifics.
I made the same point myself about the Investor day presentation a few posts back. I repeat, to those taking strike action, New Fleet will take ten years to get to 40%.
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and obvioulsy free wifi as well since you strikers are online PPRuNe 24-7...even on the bus???
You are so right.....I think they are all hooked as they keep talking about PPrune. The most successful Forum ever!
Thank you mods, a million times, for giving us a voice. I don't know what we would have done without you.
PS, I have never been prouder to fly on strike days in all my time in BA. Everyday felt as if I was going out on a VIP flight bearing in mind that all our customers are VIPs.
Last edited by Tiramisu; 9th Jun 2010 at 13:03.
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Tiramisu....
sorry, for clarification, when I said that in my opinion 14th June would bring a new contract with it, I didn't mean the New Fleet new contract, which I think Unite have declined to have any influence over.
I meant that BA will use S.O.S.R to rewrite the contracts of all cabin crew, not just those on strike. It's not allowed for the company to differentiate between strikers and supporters of the company on a contractual basis.
I think that the new contract will protect all of the things that BA has time and time again promised to protect for current crew, for example Pay, T's & C's, promotion prospects, monthly travel payment in addition to meal allowances, index-linked payrises etc etc
The stinger will be that it will be exactly the same offer that bassa just turned down. For this reason I think that all cabin crew who have come into work to protect their company/jobs will sign immediately and breathe a HUGH sigh of relief that they escaped the chop!
All crew who do not sign the new contract will be deemed by LAW to have resigned, forfeiting any severance pay/unfair dismissal.
This has been up BAs sleeve for well over a year, (many of us have been calling it since day 1) and in fact the Unite lawyer referred to it IN UNITE'S DEFENCE, saying that BA HADN'T been reasonable with the 'imposition' because it could have much more easily invoked S.O.S.R and changed everyone's contract legally!
Oh dear.....I think that WW will make the new contract REALLY fair, so as not to lose the goodwill of the supporting cabin crew. Of course there will be nothing in there to (fully) reinstate staff travel, or to over-ride the union-agreed disciplinary process, so many strikers will not sign the contract and will find themselves unemployed with no recourse by mid September.
That said, he may try to sweeten the deal to get as many cc as possible to sign within the first month by offering reinstatement of staff travel with new joining date for those strikers who sign up early on.
I also believe that the new contract will come with a no-strike clause attached to a share option, much like the pilots signed.....it's not worth a great deal, but it's something ,and in return BA can persuade the public that we have all signed no-strike clauses, hence allowing for reinvigoration of our exhausted business.
sorry, for clarification, when I said that in my opinion 14th June would bring a new contract with it, I didn't mean the New Fleet new contract, which I think Unite have declined to have any influence over.
I meant that BA will use S.O.S.R to rewrite the contracts of all cabin crew, not just those on strike. It's not allowed for the company to differentiate between strikers and supporters of the company on a contractual basis.
I think that the new contract will protect all of the things that BA has time and time again promised to protect for current crew, for example Pay, T's & C's, promotion prospects, monthly travel payment in addition to meal allowances, index-linked payrises etc etc
The stinger will be that it will be exactly the same offer that bassa just turned down. For this reason I think that all cabin crew who have come into work to protect their company/jobs will sign immediately and breathe a HUGH sigh of relief that they escaped the chop!
All crew who do not sign the new contract will be deemed by LAW to have resigned, forfeiting any severance pay/unfair dismissal.
This has been up BAs sleeve for well over a year, (many of us have been calling it since day 1) and in fact the Unite lawyer referred to it IN UNITE'S DEFENCE, saying that BA HADN'T been reasonable with the 'imposition' because it could have much more easily invoked S.O.S.R and changed everyone's contract legally!
Oh dear.....I think that WW will make the new contract REALLY fair, so as not to lose the goodwill of the supporting cabin crew. Of course there will be nothing in there to (fully) reinstate staff travel, or to over-ride the union-agreed disciplinary process, so many strikers will not sign the contract and will find themselves unemployed with no recourse by mid September.
That said, he may try to sweeten the deal to get as many cc as possible to sign within the first month by offering reinstatement of staff travel with new joining date for those strikers who sign up early on.
I also believe that the new contract will come with a no-strike clause attached to a share option, much like the pilots signed.....it's not worth a great deal, but it's something ,and in return BA can persuade the public that we have all signed no-strike clauses, hence allowing for reinvigoration of our exhausted business.
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Hi flybymerchant,
Thanks for that clarification. It's just that in one of my conversations with Bill Francis, I mentioned about SOSR and he said the exact thing you've posted, the fact that they cannot discriminate against strikers and non strikers. SOSR would have to be for all and both WW and BF want to recognise those who have kept BA flying during the strike.
However, if it's as you have very succinctly put, then I'd say I'm pencil poised....... ready to sign on the dotted line.
Thanks for that clarification. It's just that in one of my conversations with Bill Francis, I mentioned about SOSR and he said the exact thing you've posted, the fact that they cannot discriminate against strikers and non strikers. SOSR would have to be for all and both WW and BF want to recognise those who have kept BA flying during the strike.
However, if it's as you have very succinctly put, then I'd say I'm pencil poised....... ready to sign on the dotted line.
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Unite confirm they will Ballot again
I now suspect that flybymerchant is correct with SOSR. Unite will reballot.
BBC News - BA strike: Unite union prepares for new strike ballot
BBC News - BA strike: Unite union prepares for new strike ballot
Unite will reballot.
However the 64,000 dollar question is: What would the UNITE leadership prefer as an outcome to the ballot; a majority for or against continuing the IA?
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It would be interesting to know how many/and which MP's signed the letter of support.
My guess is that it will be a few of the usual far left suspects.
Funny how a striking BA poster on Skynews claims she has an interview with Emirates and goes on to praise Virgin and Richard Branson using the words "there is a man who knows how to run an airline". Maybe so, but certainly not for the benefit of his cabin crew.
It beggars belief that there are people believing that they will have a better set of T&C's outside of BA. Perhaps they should all do as "trolleydolly" is doing, if any other airline is willing to employ them.
My guess is that it will be a few of the usual far left suspects.
Funny how a striking BA poster on Skynews claims she has an interview with Emirates and goes on to praise Virgin and Richard Branson using the words "there is a man who knows how to run an airline". Maybe so, but certainly not for the benefit of his cabin crew.
It beggars belief that there are people believing that they will have a better set of T&C's outside of BA. Perhaps they should all do as "trolleydolly" is doing, if any other airline is willing to employ them.
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Originally Posted by gr8tballsoffire
Going back to your wish for a harmonious working life, unfortunately BASSA have put paid to that a long time ago by managing to alienate each and evey department in BA
I remember back in March I was treated to a rather frosty, though not rude or unprofessional, reception by a member of ground staff when I approached her with a question.
When I spotted the letter from BA to customers about the disruption and, long story short we got chatting about our opinions on the subject, she warmed up no end.
I can hardly blame her - this company is being damaged (I won't say wrecked - I think BA can sustain these strikes for a lot longer than Bassa/Unite and its members can) by my flying colleagues.
There's a lot of worry about how crew will work together when we're all mixed up again but we should be worried about how we will work with our ground based colleagues and, indeed, our colleagues on the other side of the flight deck door.
ALSO, the preferred put-down by strikers aimed at non-strikers is "we'd have won this a long time ago if you had backed Bassa". And that, of course, will be their answer WHATEVER happens now (which will undoubtedly be the acceptance of a deal worse than those we've previously seen).
But what they need to realise is that the majority of us have minds of our own - we're intelligent enough, as they no doubt believe they are, to weigh up the arguments from both sides and make a decision from there.
What they are saying is tantamount to "go along with Bassa even if you don't agree with them so we can screw the company into agreeing something they cannot afford".
They seem incapable - and I mean this with all due respect - of understanding that other people will see things differently to them.
If we "lose" (in their opinion) this battle, it won't be beacuse of the lack of support from the crew community, it will be because a victory in the eyes of Bassa has never been within reach.
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Hi Eddy....
When you said....
Did you mean because less than 10% of pilots (yes around 300) volunteered and that the pilot union chose to remain 100% neutral, even whilst getting sh!t slung at it by bassa, again....and again.
Or did you mean because you also think, "this is all the fault of the pilots", like the recession, because we all get paid so well?
There's a lot of worry about how crew will work together when we're all mixed up again but we should be worried about how we will work with......//....our colleagues on the other side of the flight deck door.
Or did you mean because you also think, "this is all the fault of the pilots", like the recession, because we all get paid so well?
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FlyBy, I mean the former.
I've been criticised heavily in the past for getting on so well with pilots. One nasty letter seemed to be criticising me for "wanting to be a Purser, a manager or a pilot" - when did those things become the Fourth Reich?
- Edit to add : I think you misunderstand my post a little, but I can see why. When I said "we" I meant those who have adopted an extreme hatred of our stripe wearing colleagues. Not me - I will treat them with the same respect I always have done.
The only ones likely to have a particularly anti-pilot attitude over the coming months are those who have been at Bedfont every day (so what's that, about 15 people
).
I've been criticised heavily in the past for getting on so well with pilots. One nasty letter seemed to be criticising me for "wanting to be a Purser, a manager or a pilot" - when did those things become the Fourth Reich?
- Edit to add : I think you misunderstand my post a little, but I can see why. When I said "we" I meant those who have adopted an extreme hatred of our stripe wearing colleagues. Not me - I will treat them with the same respect I always have done.
The only ones likely to have a particularly anti-pilot attitude over the coming months are those who have been at Bedfont every day (so what's that, about 15 people
).
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Interesting stuff, HS.
A lot of people are trying to throw doubt on how clever an idea it is for ground staff to come away from their regular jobs in order to fly as crew, saying that if they can be spared for 90 days they might find after that time that their job has gone as they were deemed 'excess' to requirements.
However, I understand that overtime has largely been frozen for our ground staff, so the company will just re-instate overtime to cover the shortfall of staff.
There are also fears about how few experienced crew will be flying on each flight, but people need to realise that there ARE legal limits in place to dictate the level of experience required on an aircraft, so the company has to abide by those limits.
To be honest, I'm not worried about flying with temps/vccs. Having just flown with three (for the first time despite this being my 4th strike trip) I had absolutely no doubts in their abilities to perform in an emergency.
A lot of people are trying to throw doubt on how clever an idea it is for ground staff to come away from their regular jobs in order to fly as crew, saying that if they can be spared for 90 days they might find after that time that their job has gone as they were deemed 'excess' to requirements.
However, I understand that overtime has largely been frozen for our ground staff, so the company will just re-instate overtime to cover the shortfall of staff.
There are also fears about how few experienced crew will be flying on each flight, but people need to realise that there ARE legal limits in place to dictate the level of experience required on an aircraft, so the company has to abide by those limits.
To be honest, I'm not worried about flying with temps/vccs. Having just flown with three (for the first time despite this being my 4th strike trip) I had absolutely no doubts in their abilities to perform in an emergency.
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A view from an engineer
I've been watching this thread with keen interest. I'm a BA engineer with my colours very firmly nailed to the company mast in this dispute and I'm full of admiration for those crew and volunteers crossing the picket line along with the backing BA workers.
I could not agree more about the comments of BASSA and the UNITE leadership fermenting dissunity. I believe that some of the consequences of these issues are being evidenced within engineering.
Last week I read this socialistparty.org article with the following remarks attributed to BASSA staff Penny White:
"Difficulties in connecting BA workers across the different sections within the airline has led to some problems for the union. "The pilots who aren't involved in being scab crew, some of them are supporting us. The engineers aren't particularly pro-us... everyone's in sections, each group's trying to do their own thing."
I had a good chuckle at the statement “The engineers aren't particularly pro-us" I agree Penny !...and Pinochio didn’t have a particularly short nose but I’ll save that fascinating topic for another day.
In my department I know of no sympathy for the strikers - indeed they, along with BASSA and the UNITE leadership are perceived as a very real threat to our very own security. As Penny might say "Engineering won't be dishing out the group hugs to strikers anytime soon"
This threat has prompted several colleagues I personally know to leave UNITE to seek representation elsewhere. I’m hearing stories where whole areas have seen up to 75% of staff defect. This sounds incredible to me so I’m taking it with a pinch of salt. Even so, when Woodley and Simpson send out letters requesting members not to encourage defections (their way I’m sure of avoiding the phrase “please don’t go”) it does make you wonder at the strength of feeling within Engineering .
It’s a baffling situation, because the engineering arm of UNITE has in my opinion done some very good work in the past on behalf of its members.
If I was a senior UNITE Engineering rep I would be very alarmed at what is being discussed by those they represent and perhaps a little angry at the actions of those above them.
That's only my view/observation, other engineers may feel quite differently.
A final thought...
Willie is constantly being accused by “Academics” of splitting the workforce. Perhaps they might now like to show some impartiality and turn their attention to the excellent job that UNITE is doing in dividing the workforce – I think not.
I could not agree more about the comments of BASSA and the UNITE leadership fermenting dissunity. I believe that some of the consequences of these issues are being evidenced within engineering.
Last week I read this socialistparty.org article with the following remarks attributed to BASSA staff Penny White:
"Difficulties in connecting BA workers across the different sections within the airline has led to some problems for the union. "The pilots who aren't involved in being scab crew, some of them are supporting us. The engineers aren't particularly pro-us... everyone's in sections, each group's trying to do their own thing."
I had a good chuckle at the statement “The engineers aren't particularly pro-us" I agree Penny !...and Pinochio didn’t have a particularly short nose but I’ll save that fascinating topic for another day.
In my department I know of no sympathy for the strikers - indeed they, along with BASSA and the UNITE leadership are perceived as a very real threat to our very own security. As Penny might say "Engineering won't be dishing out the group hugs to strikers anytime soon"
This threat has prompted several colleagues I personally know to leave UNITE to seek representation elsewhere. I’m hearing stories where whole areas have seen up to 75% of staff defect. This sounds incredible to me so I’m taking it with a pinch of salt. Even so, when Woodley and Simpson send out letters requesting members not to encourage defections (their way I’m sure of avoiding the phrase “please don’t go”) it does make you wonder at the strength of feeling within Engineering .
It’s a baffling situation, because the engineering arm of UNITE has in my opinion done some very good work in the past on behalf of its members.
If I was a senior UNITE Engineering rep I would be very alarmed at what is being discussed by those they represent and perhaps a little angry at the actions of those above them.
That's only my view/observation, other engineers may feel quite differently.
A final thought...
Willie is constantly being accused by “Academics” of splitting the workforce. Perhaps they might now like to show some impartiality and turn their attention to the excellent job that UNITE is doing in dividing the workforce – I think not.
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Originally Posted by news.bbc.co.uk
Unite has been involved in a long-running row with the airline which began over staffing levels and working conditions.
But the union says the main outstanding grievance now is the removal of travel concessions for those who went on strike.
Unite could legally call another strike under its existing mandate, but as its members would not be entitled to legal protection against repercussions from management it said it would not expose them to that risk.
But the union says the main outstanding grievance now is the removal of travel concessions for those who went on strike.
Unite could legally call another strike under its existing mandate, but as its members would not be entitled to legal protection against repercussions from management it said it would not expose them to that risk.
the lunatic fringe
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Interesting..... Doesn't this effectively mean that there's very little chance of the ballot result not being overturned in the courts?
Piece on the strike on Channel 4 News just now...guess you can catch it in just under an hour on C4+1 at around 35 minutes past the hour.
Interested to see if anyone else here sees it and has views on the balance of the report.
Interested to see if anyone else here sees it and has views on the balance of the report.
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But wasn't there something posted a few pages back to suggest that the union cannot announce why it will release a ballot during existing action for a dispute that will take place in the future?
I've forgotten the exact wording.
I've forgotten the exact wording.