British Airways - CC Industrial Relations Mk VI
I think it will be a higher 'Yes' vote than that, Dave B, because most ballot papers will have been returned before the very recent court judgement - something around 80-85% voting 'Yes'. But they won't know why they voted 'Yes' other than to say "BASSA said we had to." What they probably will only just begin to understand is the force of the repercussion, which is already becoming unmistakeable.
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but will people who vote for the strike actually follow through on the day - particularly if they will lose their staff travel priveleges as a result?
i can see the vote being positive just to send a message but the actual number willing to walk out will be much lower and any strike will quickly collapse
i can see the vote being positive just to send a message but the actual number willing to walk out will be much lower and any strike will quickly collapse
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but will people who vote for the strike actually follow through on the day - particularly if they will lose their staff travel priveleges as a result?
i can see the vote being positive just to send a message but the actual number willing to walk out will be much lower and any strike will quickly collapse
i can see the vote being positive just to send a message but the actual number willing to walk out will be much lower and any strike will quickly collapse
And what message would that be Discokid? That I am voting for a strike but I'm not pr
How about that you are putting your faith and your fate in the hands of others.
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These who have made a tactical Yes vote haven't considered that BA have a massive plan in place to break the strike, which would leave Bassa in tatters. By voting Yes and not intending to strike they are guiding their union to its demise.
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I'd be interested to know from Litebulbs what internal debate there is in Unite about this proposed strike.
When on my volunteers course there were plenty of Unite members training to break the strike of fellow union members.
When on my volunteers course there were plenty of Unite members training to break the strike of fellow union members.
Midman,
I think you are absolutely right. I think a great number of the cc community are in the "send a message to the vile willie walsh" camp, while having little or no intention of striking.
I think this is one of the more contemptuous forms of cowardice
In the current situation there are several options, the more obvious of which are below:
1. You agree with your union, vote for a strike and withdraw your labour.
2. You disagree with your union, vote against a strike but abide by the collective will and withdraw your labour.
3. You disagree with the union, vote against and then resign from the union and work as normal.
4. You despise your employers and other workmates so much that you find another job.
To think that you can try to hold the company to ransom while doing irreparable damage by threats of IA, all the while intending to work is dispicable. To think that many of them would dare to morally judge volunteers whist secretly intending to break their own strike is beyond belief. If the vote is of the order of 80% then I will no longer have much sympathy with them.
What ye have sowed, so ye shall reap.
I think you are absolutely right. I think a great number of the cc community are in the "send a message to the vile willie walsh" camp, while having little or no intention of striking.
I think this is one of the more contemptuous forms of cowardice
In the current situation there are several options, the more obvious of which are below:
1. You agree with your union, vote for a strike and withdraw your labour.
2. You disagree with your union, vote against a strike but abide by the collective will and withdraw your labour.
3. You disagree with the union, vote against and then resign from the union and work as normal.
4. You despise your employers and other workmates so much that you find another job.
To think that you can try to hold the company to ransom while doing irreparable damage by threats of IA, all the while intending to work is dispicable. To think that many of them would dare to morally judge volunteers whist secretly intending to break their own strike is beyond belief. If the vote is of the order of 80% then I will no longer have much sympathy with them.
What ye have sowed, so ye shall reap.
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Latest from:
. COST SAVING TALKS PAGE
. COST SAVING TALKS PAGE
21st February 2010
Days of wonder.
There is no doubt that as crew, the times we are living through are troubling - but they are also historic; these truly are the days of our lives.
We have faced bullying, threats, gloating managers and colleagues, smears on our character, attacks on our families and intimidation - but we are still right here.
We had been involved in very intense negotiations for the past two weeks at the TUC in central London; we committed to you to try and find a negotiated settlement and that’s exactly what we are trying and will continue to try and do, despite provocation to do otherwise. We won’t stop trying until the last minute of the last day before we take industrial action.
If we have to take industrial action, it will be for no other reason than because those talks have failed, but this will not be for want of trying on our part.
Last week was long, tiring and tough and ended on a low, with a second loss at the hands of a judge. We spent many hours and days locked away in windowless rooms. During one of many adjournments, we often found ourselves in Assistant General Secretary, Lenny McCluskey’s office, at Unites head office, on the wall to his office he has framed the lyrics to a Labbi Saffri song ‘Something inside’, as it has given him inspiration in difficult times.
It would be fair to say that it lifted our spirits as well and has become something of an unofficial anthem between us all, and for whatever reason, we took its words to heart - and you know what? Losing the court case was disappointing, but it hasn’t had the devastating feeling that the December loss gave us all; we are still here, we are still strong and with your backing, we are not going anywhere anytime soon.
Willy Walsh, Tony McCarthy, Bill Francis et al do what they do because they are paid to do it; you and I are standing up for something we believe in - ourselves and what’s right - and that’s a big difference.
Perseverance, a quiet dignity and strength of heart will always win in the end.
Every dog has its day and boy, are we ever due one soon!
MONDAY 22nd February
Another momentous day is ahead of us.
On Monday afternoon (tomorrow) we will be given the results from the final counting of our ballot.
The waiting is nearly over; tomorrow we will know exactly the effect their threats have had. Do you still wish your voice to be heard? Or have their bullying tactics worked.
In just a few hours we will all know.
We know it has been so hard for you, having to do it all over again for a second time, there has been so many threats and intimidation to the cabin crew community and to individuals, we know this will have taken its toll.
We need to get above 50%, with all that you have had to endure; we will be delighted to reach that target.
As soon as the result is available it will be communicated to you, until then our fingers will remain firmly crossed!
Joint Members' Meeting
Thursday 25th February 11.00am Kempton Park
If you can, you really do need to make the effort for this one, we will be reporting back for your consideration two specific areas only.
• Deal or no deal?
• Progress on the talks that have been held at TUC over the last two weeks - and your views on that will be sought.
We will also all know the ballot result and if a strike has been called, then together we will decide on the course of our industrial action with regards to dates and duration.
It couldn’t be any more important that you spare the time to join us and have a voice in your future.
Days of wonder.
There is no doubt that as crew, the times we are living through are troubling - but they are also historic; these truly are the days of our lives.
We have faced bullying, threats, gloating managers and colleagues, smears on our character, attacks on our families and intimidation - but we are still right here.
We had been involved in very intense negotiations for the past two weeks at the TUC in central London; we committed to you to try and find a negotiated settlement and that’s exactly what we are trying and will continue to try and do, despite provocation to do otherwise. We won’t stop trying until the last minute of the last day before we take industrial action.
If we have to take industrial action, it will be for no other reason than because those talks have failed, but this will not be for want of trying on our part.
Last week was long, tiring and tough and ended on a low, with a second loss at the hands of a judge. We spent many hours and days locked away in windowless rooms. During one of many adjournments, we often found ourselves in Assistant General Secretary, Lenny McCluskey’s office, at Unites head office, on the wall to his office he has framed the lyrics to a Labbi Saffri song ‘Something inside’, as it has given him inspiration in difficult times.
It would be fair to say that it lifted our spirits as well and has become something of an unofficial anthem between us all, and for whatever reason, we took its words to heart - and you know what? Losing the court case was disappointing, but it hasn’t had the devastating feeling that the December loss gave us all; we are still here, we are still strong and with your backing, we are not going anywhere anytime soon.
Willy Walsh, Tony McCarthy, Bill Francis et al do what they do because they are paid to do it; you and I are standing up for something we believe in - ourselves and what’s right - and that’s a big difference.
Perseverance, a quiet dignity and strength of heart will always win in the end.
Every dog has its day and boy, are we ever due one soon!
MONDAY 22nd February
Another momentous day is ahead of us.
On Monday afternoon (tomorrow) we will be given the results from the final counting of our ballot.
The waiting is nearly over; tomorrow we will know exactly the effect their threats have had. Do you still wish your voice to be heard? Or have their bullying tactics worked.
In just a few hours we will all know.
We know it has been so hard for you, having to do it all over again for a second time, there has been so many threats and intimidation to the cabin crew community and to individuals, we know this will have taken its toll.
We need to get above 50%, with all that you have had to endure; we will be delighted to reach that target.
As soon as the result is available it will be communicated to you, until then our fingers will remain firmly crossed!
Joint Members' Meeting
Thursday 25th February 11.00am Kempton Park
If you can, you really do need to make the effort for this one, we will be reporting back for your consideration two specific areas only.
• Deal or no deal?
• Progress on the talks that have been held at TUC over the last two weeks - and your views on that will be sought.
We will also all know the ballot result and if a strike has been called, then together we will decide on the course of our industrial action with regards to dates and duration.
It couldn’t be any more important that you spare the time to join us and have a voice in your future.
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I think that I have established that I am a trade unionist. I have also been on leave when my area was on strike. I cancelled my leave and took the hit like everyone else.
I have represented people who I do not like and have listened to people moaning to me about their demands, even when they do not pay a monthly fee that allows them the right to negotiate.
Hey, but you do not do it for thanks, you do it because you believe in it.
I am most definitely in the minority on this thread, but I imagine that on the CF site, that position would be completely reversed.
One thing though, it matters not what I think, it is people like MissM, A Lurker and WWW, along with HiFlyer, Ottergirl and Tiramisu that count. The thread is weaker since the pro strikers left. How can you influence the debate, when all you are debating with is yourselves?
I have represented people who I do not like and have listened to people moaning to me about their demands, even when they do not pay a monthly fee that allows them the right to negotiate.
Hey, but you do not do it for thanks, you do it because you believe in it.
I am most definitely in the minority on this thread, but I imagine that on the CF site, that position would be completely reversed.
One thing though, it matters not what I think, it is people like MissM, A Lurker and WWW, along with HiFlyer, Ottergirl and Tiramisu that count. The thread is weaker since the pro strikers left. How can you influence the debate, when all you are debating with is yourselves?
Junior trash
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The thread is weaker since the pro strikers left. How can you influence the debate, when all you are debating with is yourselves?
Junior trash
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Fair point again, but I would suggest that some of the more "aggressive" responses do not help to find a moderate solution.
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I wonder what CSDs on Eurofleet are then, they have been working on the trolleys for years!
Which is what makes the Eurofleet management nervous.
Some EF crew can be VERY FLEXIBLE when they are about to lose GVA but VERY INFLEXIBLE when it's MAN.
Promoting crew based on merit is dangerous because they don't have any experience. It should based on seniority. There was a huge debate about this when the company introduced this system at LGW. Seems to be working more than well done there. The seniority system explains why many crew don't have any motivation left because they don't see any career progression ahead of themselves. Crew recruited in 1997 are still working in World Traveller and Club World.
One thing though, it matters not what I think, it is people like MissM, A Lurker and WWW, along with HiFlyer, Ottergirl and Tiramisu that count. The thread is weaker since the pro strikers left. How can you influence the debate, when all you are debating with is yourselves?
All thoughts my own and in no way representative of my employer.
Last edited by ottergirl; 21st Feb 2010 at 21:08. Reason: clarification and spelling
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I am SLF and have posted twice on this debate. There is much talk of crew voting whilst being ignorant of the facts and especially refusing to accept the seriousness of the economic situation the UK now finds itself in.
I have to say that those who vote yes and continue to turn a blind eye to the truth for whatever reason, deserve whatever falls upon them over the next few weeks. Ignorance of the facts is no excuse.
True Blue
I have to say that those who vote yes and continue to turn a blind eye to the truth for whatever reason, deserve whatever falls upon them over the next few weeks. Ignorance of the facts is no excuse.
True Blue
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We are still reading your thoughts but the current climate in BA makes forums a bit nerve-wracking so the posts on open forums like this will stay limited for some time I suspect.
I think the reason for the lack of the pro-BASSA posters is that there is little left to be said.
I'm BA cabin crew and the above are my personal views and not those of my employer.
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Litebulbs, with all due respect, perhaps a reminder of the negotiation process is in order.
If you find individuals posting terse or frustrated commentary perhaps its due to the reality of the history of negotiations, or lack thereof, in this process by BASSA.
Personally, I expect a vote for a strike tomorrow...and I believe it will prove to be a mistake on BASSA's part. Not only are they pushing an issue that the Court has found reasonable (and BASSA has agreed to in other areas), but they have approached it in a way that has lost the support of not only the public, but of other unions.
If BASSA is not finished through this process, what happens the next time they cry "Wolf". They have lost significant credibilty regarding their ability to be reasonable and to represent their clients' best interests.
What I don't understand in this is Unite's failure to rein in BASSA. My spouse, as the head of his entity, deals with Unite on a regular basis. They NEVER behave in this manner, They are truly a partner in positive development for both the company's mission and advocates regarding their employees well-being.
What in the world are they doing regarding BA? BASSA truly seems to be the tail wagging the dog.
The essential chronology is as follows;
i) 24th February – At a National Sectional Panel ("NSP") meeting Mr Francis told the Union that in the then financial circumstances BA looked to save £82m as against the cost of cabin crew. Throughout Unite had separately identified representatives from both its BASSA and Amicus factions.
ii) 26th February – At a further such meeting Mr Francis handed over a list setting out 32 prospective costs saving measures and invited discussion. Of these measures nine involved reduction in current cabin crew complements.
iii) February – April BA met 14 times with BASSA and four times with Amicus in a mixture of formal and informal meetings.
iv) May – Following release of the figures for the first quarter (see para 12 above) the required costs saving was increased to £140m.
v) 1st June – BA issue a statutory HR1 form proposing up to 2000 redundancies amongst cabin crew. BA and the Union meet at a formal NSP.
vi) 9th – 30th June – Intermittent talks at Heathrow Renaissance Hotel. In the course of such;
a) 15th June BASSA had a heated argument with Amicus and refused to cooperate together
b) 23rd June BA put forward a proposal in writing. This included specific reductions in crew complements
c) 25th June – Unite put forward a written Pay and Productivity Proposal, claiming that it would save BA £173m. It proposed some alterations in the cabin crew complements but no significant reduction. Thereafter BA tried to understand and analyse the cost saving as anticipated by Unite, bringing in accountants, Price Waterhouse Cooper. The latter's assessment was that the saving would be about £53m. Unite refused to have further discussions over this issue, whether with BA or the accountants.
In the overall result, the meetings broke up without reaching any joint conclusion.
vii) 29th June – Mr Francis sent a letter to each cabin crew member, setting out BA's proposals, such including a reduction in cabin crew complements.
viii) 21st-23rd July – An abortive session at ACAS.
ix) 21st, 30th September and 1st and 2nd October – Following an agreement reached between BA's CEO and the Joint General Secretaries of Unite, there was a further sustained resort to ACAS for conciliation. I heard evidence as to the course of events at ACAS and the following emerged. The BASSA and Amicus factions were separately represented and sat in separate rooms. Despite the efforts of ACAS they could not be persuaded to join forces for a meeting with BA. The latter raised the possibility of separate agreements with the respective factions but, understandably, that did not appeal. In the overall result there was no meeting between the Union and BA.
x) 6th October – Mr Francis e-mails all cabin crew.
i) 24th February – At a National Sectional Panel ("NSP") meeting Mr Francis told the Union that in the then financial circumstances BA looked to save £82m as against the cost of cabin crew. Throughout Unite had separately identified representatives from both its BASSA and Amicus factions.
ii) 26th February – At a further such meeting Mr Francis handed over a list setting out 32 prospective costs saving measures and invited discussion. Of these measures nine involved reduction in current cabin crew complements.
iii) February – April BA met 14 times with BASSA and four times with Amicus in a mixture of formal and informal meetings.
iv) May – Following release of the figures for the first quarter (see para 12 above) the required costs saving was increased to £140m.
v) 1st June – BA issue a statutory HR1 form proposing up to 2000 redundancies amongst cabin crew. BA and the Union meet at a formal NSP.
vi) 9th – 30th June – Intermittent talks at Heathrow Renaissance Hotel. In the course of such;
a) 15th June BASSA had a heated argument with Amicus and refused to cooperate together
b) 23rd June BA put forward a proposal in writing. This included specific reductions in crew complements
c) 25th June – Unite put forward a written Pay and Productivity Proposal, claiming that it would save BA £173m. It proposed some alterations in the cabin crew complements but no significant reduction. Thereafter BA tried to understand and analyse the cost saving as anticipated by Unite, bringing in accountants, Price Waterhouse Cooper. The latter's assessment was that the saving would be about £53m. Unite refused to have further discussions over this issue, whether with BA or the accountants.
In the overall result, the meetings broke up without reaching any joint conclusion.
vii) 29th June – Mr Francis sent a letter to each cabin crew member, setting out BA's proposals, such including a reduction in cabin crew complements.
viii) 21st-23rd July – An abortive session at ACAS.
ix) 21st, 30th September and 1st and 2nd October – Following an agreement reached between BA's CEO and the Joint General Secretaries of Unite, there was a further sustained resort to ACAS for conciliation. I heard evidence as to the course of events at ACAS and the following emerged. The BASSA and Amicus factions were separately represented and sat in separate rooms. Despite the efforts of ACAS they could not be persuaded to join forces for a meeting with BA. The latter raised the possibility of separate agreements with the respective factions but, understandably, that did not appeal. In the overall result there was no meeting between the Union and BA.
x) 6th October – Mr Francis e-mails all cabin crew.
Personally, I expect a vote for a strike tomorrow...and I believe it will prove to be a mistake on BASSA's part. Not only are they pushing an issue that the Court has found reasonable (and BASSA has agreed to in other areas), but they have approached it in a way that has lost the support of not only the public, but of other unions.
If BASSA is not finished through this process, what happens the next time they cry "Wolf". They have lost significant credibilty regarding their ability to be reasonable and to represent their clients' best interests.
What I don't understand in this is Unite's failure to rein in BASSA. My spouse, as the head of his entity, deals with Unite on a regular basis. They NEVER behave in this manner, They are truly a partner in positive development for both the company's mission and advocates regarding their employees well-being.
What in the world are they doing regarding BA? BASSA truly seems to be the tail wagging the dog.
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Originally Posted by ottergirl
winstonsmith - no flexibility on Eurofleet. Everyone works to the agreement, both crew and scheduling! No favours asked nor given. Its fairer that way so to imply we have a choice is incorrect. We could wish to keep GVA or lose MAN but it is just that - a wish, a pipe-dreamq
I often send Acars messages for crew who want to tell ops they are willing to ignore their industrial limits to keep a high paying trip and a lot of the time they keep them. I have also seen some quite frankly obscene foot-dragging to avoid doing a 'charity' manchester/ncl/edi link, things like refusing to board because they found some crumbs, and have called back the cleaners to delay departure and various other 'tricks'.
We all know it goes on, don't ruin your credibility by suggesting otherwise.