British Airways - CC Industrial Relations Mk VI
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Crew saying today Pilots still getting the blame 
Was told some posts on CF saying CRM at an all time low and safety is at risk 
.Can't they just accept that BASSA have got it wrong.
Was told some posts on CF saying CRM at an all time low and safety is at risk .Can't they just accept that BASSA have got it wrong.
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Watersidewonker, you've been outmaneuvered at every twist, every turn in this sorry debacle.
Your union and its leaders are inept and inane; they are weakened to the point of being totally impotent and face now nothing more than a battle for their very own survival.
They have led you to the edge of the precipice; the question is, do you have the courage of your convictions to make the jump....?
Your union and its leaders are inept and inane; they are weakened to the point of being totally impotent and face now nothing more than a battle for their very own survival.
They have led you to the edge of the precipice; the question is, do you have the courage of your convictions to make the jump....?
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Reasoned Response?
Hello everyone hope your all looking forward to hearing the massive YES vote result again on Monday followed by the master plan being revealed on Thursday oh and how is that food in the canteen these days yummy I hope. I'm backing BA because I know it will BA big YES in favour of seeing justice done through industrial action. Glad to see you are all having some lovely debates going but now the real action must begin.
It's good to see he/she is backing BA, although it is rather difficult to see how this can be by threatening Industrial Action. It is also good to see they now have 'a master plan', because up to now - having read every post since the end of BA III - any form of 'plan' as I understand the term was strangely lacking.
But it is the two sentences; -
.....oh and how is that food in the canteen these days yummy I hope.
Glad to see you are all having some lovely debates going but now the real action must begin.
..... that I find more than a little sinister. Some of you may know what he/she is talking about?
Roger.
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It is interesting that WWW thinks justice is done by ignoring the ruling of the courts, but that aside.
So, I am right in concluding that the merit of the strike has been negated by the court ruling. So, the ballot is now - once again - null and void since there is no clear other issue on the table (remember: the judge also ruled on the matter of imposition and blamed that on BASSA!) so the crew can have no idea why they would vote YES other than general disagreement with BA Management.
In my country (NL) Industrial Action must be proportional to the issue that instigated it. E.g. there must be a clear definition of the issue so a judge can rule the strike legal or not. There also must be an alternate proposal on the table (like wage increase or keeping a status quo). Furthermore you cannot go on a 10 day strike because of a minor conflict (however much that escalated by warmongering).
To know whether or not the strike has merit is important for both sides since if the strike is legal BA can do very little to the strikers but take away every perk. However, if the strike is illegal they can do much, much more.
Any lawyers out there who can tell me if the judge needs to rule the strike unlawful before BA can start taking measures like firing or can BA also take the position the strike in unlawful, take appropriate measures and start firing people and deal with the courts afterwards?
The latter would seem very inappropriate (strikers need to know the legal consequences of their actions before they commit to striking) so would that not mean that BA will have to seek a second injunction?
So, I am right in concluding that the merit of the strike has been negated by the court ruling. So, the ballot is now - once again - null and void since there is no clear other issue on the table (remember: the judge also ruled on the matter of imposition and blamed that on BASSA!) so the crew can have no idea why they would vote YES other than general disagreement with BA Management.
In my country (NL) Industrial Action must be proportional to the issue that instigated it. E.g. there must be a clear definition of the issue so a judge can rule the strike legal or not. There also must be an alternate proposal on the table (like wage increase or keeping a status quo). Furthermore you cannot go on a 10 day strike because of a minor conflict (however much that escalated by warmongering).
To know whether or not the strike has merit is important for both sides since if the strike is legal BA can do very little to the strikers but take away every perk. However, if the strike is illegal they can do much, much more.
Any lawyers out there who can tell me if the judge needs to rule the strike unlawful before BA can start taking measures like firing or can BA also take the position the strike in unlawful, take appropriate measures and start firing people and deal with the courts afterwards?
The latter would seem very inappropriate (strikers need to know the legal consequences of their actions before they commit to striking) so would that not mean that BA will have to seek a second injunction?
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FlibJ
Any chance you could post the post no. of Carnage or, alternatively copy and paste it here to avoid me, and others, having to look back through all the posts.
Thanks in advance.
Any chance you could post the post no. of Carnage or, alternatively copy and paste it here to avoid me, and others, having to look back through all the posts.
Thanks in advance.
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Now what?
BA ignore the irregularities and deliberately allow BASSA to declare a series of 12-day, yes 12-day strikes. (The masterplan referred to by wonker)
They then use the tactics they have planned to break the strike with a few token dismissals (see if the reps who are left are brave enough not to work), denial of staff travel etc and the use of the trained volunteers.
Those strikers who are not dismissed will be locked out and only allowed back on new contracts.
The losses from the strike action will be calculated and added to IFCE's savings target. The figure will be so big, the only way to achieve it will be to issue 90-day notice and put the entire workforce on New Fleet conditions.
Pro-Striking crew: we have tried to tell you, please listen for your own sakes. You are in a new kind of game where your opponent has decided to stop playing by your rules and is now preparing to destroy your inept Union.
BA ignore the irregularities and deliberately allow BASSA to declare a series of 12-day, yes 12-day strikes. (The masterplan referred to by wonker)
They then use the tactics they have planned to break the strike with a few token dismissals (see if the reps who are left are brave enough not to work), denial of staff travel etc and the use of the trained volunteers.
Those strikers who are not dismissed will be locked out and only allowed back on new contracts.
The losses from the strike action will be calculated and added to IFCE's savings target. The figure will be so big, the only way to achieve it will be to issue 90-day notice and put the entire workforce on New Fleet conditions.
Pro-Striking crew: we have tried to tell you, please listen for your own sakes. You are in a new kind of game where your opponent has decided to stop playing by your rules and is now preparing to destroy your inept Union.
Last edited by strikemaster82; 21st Feb 2010 at 08:55.
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Finncapt,
I must confess I'm thinking more of the opus of Carnage's posts, rather than a particular one.
At every point, he's called the outcome correctly, and become a figure of hate for the CM glitterati.
The problem is, the old rulebook has been thrown out, and we are in completely uncharted territory. BASSA are still in the 70's, whilst the world has changed, and advanced.
It doesn't matter what happened 2,5,10 years ago. BASSA members at some point have got to realise that, and that the ramifications of strike action will be severe and to them (and them only!) unexpected.
My own take:
Crew will be sacked
Staff travel will be removed
New contracts will be issued
There will not be a new fleet, because it won't be required. I'm sorry, but our crew have got to realise that BASSA have been bluffing all along, whilst brainwashing members that they hold a strong hand.
On a side note, as a BA pilot, I have NEVER been treated so well by groundstaff. Whilst aircraft CRM is being destroyed by BASSA, the rest of the airline have never had better relations in my eyes. Odd that everyone else is starting to "Unite".
I must confess I'm thinking more of the opus of Carnage's posts, rather than a particular one.
At every point, he's called the outcome correctly, and become a figure of hate for the CM glitterati.
The problem is, the old rulebook has been thrown out, and we are in completely uncharted territory. BASSA are still in the 70's, whilst the world has changed, and advanced.
It doesn't matter what happened 2,5,10 years ago. BASSA members at some point have got to realise that, and that the ramifications of strike action will be severe and to them (and them only!) unexpected.
My own take:
Crew will be sacked
Staff travel will be removed
New contracts will be issued
There will not be a new fleet, because it won't be required. I'm sorry, but our crew have got to realise that BASSA have been bluffing all along, whilst brainwashing members that they hold a strong hand.
On a side note, as a BA pilot, I have NEVER been treated so well by groundstaff. Whilst aircraft CRM is being destroyed by BASSA, the rest of the airline have never had better relations in my eyes. Odd that everyone else is starting to "Unite".
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Why
Clearly, this is the beginning of the end of BASSA and about time too; their style, bullying, total lack of business awareness and 70's rhetoric has no place in the modern workplace where the pace of change requires nimbleness and flexibility. This mess is entirely as a result of this, even the judge effectively said BASSA are responsible for imposition. Anyway, I was thinking about all the meetings BA has to hold with its CC TU's
NSP/WW Steering/EF Steering/Local Panel/Family Friendly/24hr/Manpower/Product consultative/Ops and Choice/Hotels/H&S L1,2,3/Special Circs/MOA/Part time etc
and there are more, these are just the 16 I can think of right now ! See why BA can never be nimble with this kind of structure..............
Why do BA continue to recognise CC89 now that they are effectively BASSA and have no voice of their own ? They have only 1500 members (Vs BASSA 11,500) and appear to have the same number of reps who have to take lots of time of work to attend all the above meetings (usually multiple reps from same union attend, that is if they feel like, and if their a BASSA rep, usually very late and texting all thru meeting) Why ?? Not only does it costs a fortune, but complicates decision making, particularly when BASSA/89 don't agree......
NSP/WW Steering/EF Steering/Local Panel/Family Friendly/24hr/Manpower/Product consultative/Ops and Choice/Hotels/H&S L1,2,3/Special Circs/MOA/Part time etc
and there are more, these are just the 16 I can think of right now ! See why BA can never be nimble with this kind of structure..............
Why do BA continue to recognise CC89 now that they are effectively BASSA and have no voice of their own ? They have only 1500 members (Vs BASSA 11,500) and appear to have the same number of reps who have to take lots of time of work to attend all the above meetings (usually multiple reps from same union attend, that is if they feel like, and if their a BASSA rep, usually very late and texting all thru meeting) Why ?? Not only does it costs a fortune, but complicates decision making, particularly when BASSA/89 don't agree......
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Ok, but once again: what are the demands? What does BA need to do for the strikes to be called off?
It can't be that BASSA requires BA to do what a court just told them they didn't have to...
It can't be that BASSA requires BA to do what a court just told them they didn't have to...
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Please will one of the mods enlighten me as to why yet another of my posts has disappeared?
I totally understand why there are rules and I think I'm abiding by them - if I haven't, then please can you enlighten me as to which rule I broke - otherwise won't the same keep happening again?
Ta
I totally understand why there are rules and I think I'm abiding by them - if I haven't, then please can you enlighten me as to which rule I broke - otherwise won't the same keep happening again?
Ta
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Interesting that a Unite rep should bring up this very pertinent point:
And Mealchucker you are absolutely right - it was all done voluntarily. So why are Unite so hung up about this?
Well - 1000 employees paying £10 per month (used to be £15) in subscription fees equates to £10000 per month loss of subscription fees to BASSA/Unite.
Which equals £120000 per year loss for BASSA.
The crew complements are not detrimental to the cabin crew they are detrimental to Unite alone.
It looks very much like the cabin crew community have been sold down the river to line the pockets of Unite and its' reps. But as always happy to stand corrected on this if anyone can prove otherwise.
I am BA cabin crew and this is my viewpoint and not that of BA.
There was an imposed reduction in headcount of 1000 employees.
Well - 1000 employees paying £10 per month (used to be £15) in subscription fees equates to £10000 per month loss of subscription fees to BASSA/Unite.
Which equals £120000 per year loss for BASSA.
The crew complements are not detrimental to the cabin crew they are detrimental to Unite alone.
It looks very much like the cabin crew community have been sold down the river to line the pockets of Unite and its' reps. But as always happy to stand corrected on this if anyone can prove otherwise.
I am BA cabin crew and this is my viewpoint and not that of BA.
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HiFlyer,
Thank you for pointing out that a Unite rep would mention an 8% headcount reduction. I hope you would mention that too, if you attain negotiating rights with the PCCC at BA.
Thank you for pointing out that a Unite rep would mention an 8% headcount reduction. I hope you would mention that too, if you attain negotiating rights with the PCCC at BA.
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HiFlyer
That is a pretty strong allegation against Unite and its reps. I am a Unite rep and my pockets have not been lined as a result on Unite selling BA down the river. Have you any proof to support your allegation?
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So, these countless threads have been a waste of time, when in fact the issue all along has been about the imposition of a reduction by c.1000 in manpower, an "imposition" which was over subscribed and accepted by staff who in the main were probably members of the very same union who are now claiming it was wrong to have been imposed??!!
The mind truly boggles !
La La Laaaaaaa
The mind truly boggles !
La La Laaaaaaa
It's such a shame, because the vast majority of BA cabin crew deserve so much better than the flirting with armageddon, that their union are delivering!