British Airways - CC Industrial Relations Mk VI
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Non aligned view.
There seems to have been at least some sense spoken in many areas over the last few days, although there is an element that should be of very great concern to striking cabin crew. While I might not immediately align with VLD1977, I have to say his posts (currently #2798 and #2806) certainly bring a well informed and cogently argued view to the discussion. And are all the more damning of BASSA's actions for all that.
VLD1977's points and those of some replies to them, highlight the fact that certain possible actions of BA - staff travel and even sackings, plus other issues raised about nationalisation and government support - are all 'grey areas'. They seem to be centred around very fine legal lines, which few of us are able to clarify.
Having said that, it is, I suggest, folly indeed for BASSA to 'bet' CC's lifestyle and even livelyhood on exactly those fine lines playing out in their favour. I certainly wouldn't do it myself, let alone let anyone else do it for me.
Roger.
VLD1977's points and those of some replies to them, highlight the fact that certain possible actions of BA - staff travel and even sackings, plus other issues raised about nationalisation and government support - are all 'grey areas'. They seem to be centred around very fine legal lines, which few of us are able to clarify.
Having said that, it is, I suggest, folly indeed for BASSA to 'bet' CC's lifestyle and even livelyhood on exactly those fine lines playing out in their favour. I certainly wouldn't do it myself, let alone let anyone else do it for me.
Roger.
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A reasonable man?
I believe a good negotiator should be a reasonable man/woman whether representing the company or the employees.
Willie Walsh (Irish businessman) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
This game of chess is becoming more like a game of russian roulette.
Willie Walsh (Irish businessman) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
This game of chess is becoming more like a game of russian roulette.
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VLD1977
Wow, what a refreshing read. I can just see some parties within my union going scarlet if they ever read your first post. The thing is, they should be made to read it.
With regard to employment law, it would be beneficial to all, if more education time was spent training reps in this area.
With regard to employment law, it would be beneficial to all, if more education time was spent training reps in this area.
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Extract from a recent Bill Francis missive
Bill Francis (my bold):
Clearly any CC member that opts to strike will have their forward roster wiped and the intervening days between the declared strike blocks will not see them back at work.
At the end of the current two strike day blocks, is it true to suggest that members who have elected to strike will certainly find their return to a productive and lucrative roster quite a sluggish process? Indeed if further blocks are announced, it is probable that once you strike you will be out for the duration of this dispute.
You will not be paid from the point you do not report for duty up to the point we can reasonably allocate you another duty. The withdrawal of pay will include MBT or days off at the end of the duty that you do not report for.
At the end of the current two strike day blocks, is it true to suggest that members who have elected to strike will certainly find their return to a productive and lucrative roster quite a sluggish process? Indeed if further blocks are announced, it is probable that once you strike you will be out for the duration of this dispute.
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spin_doctor wrote:
Willie Walsh did indeed say that future offers would be smaller. However, there is often a certain amount of wriggle room in disputes. If Unite were to call off the strikes immediately and offered to ballot crew over the next three weeks on the withdrawn offer, then it's hard to see how the public would understand a refusal by WW to agree.
The problem is that the disunity in Unite will probably prevent the calling off of the strikes. You might have thought that Derek Simpson, the joint general secretary, would be able to read the riot act to Len McCluskey, the assistant general secretary, but that doesn't seem to be happening.
Quote:
I wonder if Unite has been the first to blink. The proper thing to do would be to call off the strikes, ask BA to resubmit the offer and ballot crew.
Not that easy I'm afraid. WW has been very clear that as soon as strike dates are announced the losses start to mount up as bookings are cancelled and contingencies (like booking seats on other airlines) are activated. Simply calling off the strike now won't get the cabin crew back the same offer. All lost revenue will need to be recovered and as a result any deal from now on will be on less generous terms.
I wonder if Unite has been the first to blink. The proper thing to do would be to call off the strikes, ask BA to resubmit the offer and ballot crew.
Not that easy I'm afraid. WW has been very clear that as soon as strike dates are announced the losses start to mount up as bookings are cancelled and contingencies (like booking seats on other airlines) are activated. Simply calling off the strike now won't get the cabin crew back the same offer. All lost revenue will need to be recovered and as a result any deal from now on will be on less generous terms.
The problem is that the disunity in Unite will probably prevent the calling off of the strikes. You might have thought that Derek Simpson, the joint general secretary, would be able to read the riot act to Len McCluskey, the assistant general secretary, but that doesn't seem to be happening.
Scourge of Bad Airline Management!
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Nationalising BA....
I shan't comment on the rights or wrongs of the dispute, since I don't know anything like enough about the situation - but I do feel qualified to consider what may happen if BA ends up in REAL trouble.
Nationalising BA is not impossible. As someone mentioned, like the banks, mechanisms exist that would allow the government to take a significant stake in the organisation as a way of refinancing it. Remember there is an election coming up as well, and Murphy's Law, as applied to Gordon B, is that if BA is going to go TU, it will happen during the campaign, forcing hands all over Whitehall...
BUT the downside is that, rather as the banks that were nationalised have found out, there will be a very considerable price to pay as a trade off. I would wager that a nationalised BA will have to surrender a VERY large slice of the LHR slots for a start, and the government will not be able to resist meddling in the day to day running of it. Add to that severe curtailing of aircraft purchases (HMG is skint as well, remember!), which means those 747-400s, already a tad long in the tooth, are going to be around for another 5-10 years. In other words, BA will continue, but as a smaller, toothless and economically crippled version of its former self - and I can't quite see whose interest that would be in, other than the queue of foreign carriers who would love some slots at LHR...
So. You may well find that the old adage about being careful what you wish for is truer in this case than you could imagine.
I shan't comment on the rights or wrongs of the dispute, since I don't know anything like enough about the situation - but I do feel qualified to consider what may happen if BA ends up in REAL trouble.
Nationalising BA is not impossible. As someone mentioned, like the banks, mechanisms exist that would allow the government to take a significant stake in the organisation as a way of refinancing it. Remember there is an election coming up as well, and Murphy's Law, as applied to Gordon B, is that if BA is going to go TU, it will happen during the campaign, forcing hands all over Whitehall...
BUT the downside is that, rather as the banks that were nationalised have found out, there will be a very considerable price to pay as a trade off. I would wager that a nationalised BA will have to surrender a VERY large slice of the LHR slots for a start, and the government will not be able to resist meddling in the day to day running of it. Add to that severe curtailing of aircraft purchases (HMG is skint as well, remember!), which means those 747-400s, already a tad long in the tooth, are going to be around for another 5-10 years. In other words, BA will continue, but as a smaller, toothless and economically crippled version of its former self - and I can't quite see whose interest that would be in, other than the queue of foreign carriers who would love some slots at LHR...
So. You may well find that the old adage about being careful what you wish for is truer in this case than you could imagine.
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I would think that this is happening, as politicians enter into the arena, to give support to a more mediatory stance.
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I firmly believe the damage to BA is already done, it's too late to call of the strikes now.
BA has already spent vast amounts of money re-organising the schedule and has not been taking bookings for the strike dates since they were announced.
Had Unite taken the 3 week breather offered and re-balloted its members I believe this whole sorry episode would be over.
Sadly I believe this has weakened not only BASSA but all union sections involved with BA
BA has already spent vast amounts of money re-organising the schedule and has not been taking bookings for the strike dates since they were announced.
Had Unite taken the 3 week breather offered and re-balloted its members I believe this whole sorry episode would be over.
Sadly I believe this has weakened not only BASSA but all union sections involved with BA
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I would think that this is happening, as politicians enter into the arena, to give support to a more mediatory stance.
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BA is just a normal FTSE company, it can fail
The current dispute has clearly affected forward bookings and the main problem that manifests itself is that our potential passengers are not booking and depositing funds with BA in advance of their journey.
Operationally, from a financial point of view, BA has the twin problems of having to fly the current program for passengers having already paid for their trips, and secondly, seeing a severe downturn in the level of cash being deposited by potential future passengers.
It is probable that BA will have to secure facilities to trade their way out of this current difficulty and back to the norm of having healthy receipts from future passengers which would fund the cash flow required to operate the current program.
Clearly, if the financial institutions that back BA start to get nervous and limit borrowing then that borrowing will be sought from alternative sources at an increased rate. It may even require an approach to HM Treasury to secure the borrowing but that would hopefully be a discrete affair given the alarm that such an approach from Northern Rock caused. Additionally, such financial guarantees would come with strings and that would be limiting and undesirable.
In short, there could be a domino effect. It could certainly bring the company down but I feel confident that Mr Walsh will avert this if at all possible. In the end, he may find himself running short of working capital and no willing lenders which will take matters out of his hands.
It would be a very sad epitaph for such a wonderful company but history will relate that it went under because a crew member felt unable to assume a working position on a trolley. Not entirely true but it has some credibility.
Operationally, from a financial point of view, BA has the twin problems of having to fly the current program for passengers having already paid for their trips, and secondly, seeing a severe downturn in the level of cash being deposited by potential future passengers.
It is probable that BA will have to secure facilities to trade their way out of this current difficulty and back to the norm of having healthy receipts from future passengers which would fund the cash flow required to operate the current program.
Clearly, if the financial institutions that back BA start to get nervous and limit borrowing then that borrowing will be sought from alternative sources at an increased rate. It may even require an approach to HM Treasury to secure the borrowing but that would hopefully be a discrete affair given the alarm that such an approach from Northern Rock caused. Additionally, such financial guarantees would come with strings and that would be limiting and undesirable.
In short, there could be a domino effect. It could certainly bring the company down but I feel confident that Mr Walsh will avert this if at all possible. In the end, he may find himself running short of working capital and no willing lenders which will take matters out of his hands.
It would be a very sad epitaph for such a wonderful company but history will relate that it went under because a crew member felt unable to assume a working position on a trolley. Not entirely true but it has some credibility.
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Don't worry too much if you are a passenger but worry a lot if you are crew. Two examples that come to mind are Swiss(air) and JAL. A bankruptcy is probably the best (if not only) way to resolve the pension fund woes (similar to JAL). Not much effect for passengers but a lot of problems for current and retired staff. You will not only loose your travel perks, but maybe you even have to accept that your pension will be much, much less.
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Nationalisation
There is not a chance in a thousand that the Government will nationalise BA.
It's contrary to all statements that Labour have made on the issue, in public and in private. The British people wouldn't stand for taxpayers money being spent on a dysfunctional aitline that was in financial collapse because its highest paid workers on £50k+/year wouldn't accept change.
The UK has allowed large national institutions to go to the wall, knowing that more efficient, modern companies will replace them and employ the same people, without the need for state intervention.
The country is skint, thanks to TCGB spending all the cash in the good years, and is unable to pay for BA's inflated wage structure and inefficient operating practices - far better to let the company go to the wall, allow a buy out of the slots and the valuable assets by someone else, (sovereign wealth fund, far east organisation with access to foreign currency etc) and start again a few weeks later with the staff on market rate wages and modern, flexible working practices.
Is that what Bassa wants?
I don't, that's why I and so many of my colleagues will be doing our utmost to keep the airline going and hanging the Bassa hardliners out to dry.
It's contrary to all statements that Labour have made on the issue, in public and in private. The British people wouldn't stand for taxpayers money being spent on a dysfunctional aitline that was in financial collapse because its highest paid workers on £50k+/year wouldn't accept change.
The UK has allowed large national institutions to go to the wall, knowing that more efficient, modern companies will replace them and employ the same people, without the need for state intervention.
The country is skint, thanks to TCGB spending all the cash in the good years, and is unable to pay for BA's inflated wage structure and inefficient operating practices - far better to let the company go to the wall, allow a buy out of the slots and the valuable assets by someone else, (sovereign wealth fund, far east organisation with access to foreign currency etc) and start again a few weeks later with the staff on market rate wages and modern, flexible working practices.
Is that what Bassa wants?
I don't, that's why I and so many of my colleagues will be doing our utmost to keep the airline going and hanging the Bassa hardliners out to dry.
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Rover90
BA have already secured cash reserves for the duration of the dispute - £300m from the City, and £300m from the pension fund.
As Bassa described it, they have a £600m war chest.
BA have already secured cash reserves for the duration of the dispute - £300m from the City, and £300m from the pension fund.
As Bassa described it, they have a £600m war chest.
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The BBC link posted above has been updated with a response from the union to Lord Adonis' comments:
So they demand he pressures BA to put an offer back on the table that the union said they couldn't recommend?
A spokesman for Unite said it and the cabin crew staff "want to avoid strike action", and that it "is always ready to negotiate".
He also called on Lord Adonis to publicly pressure BA to "put back on the table" the settlement offer it made last week.
This offer - the details of which are unknown - was withdrawn by BA on Friday after the airline said it was conditional on strike action being averted.
"If Lord Adonis is not prepared to speak out, he risks being seen as taking the part of a bullying and intransigent management," added the Unite spokesman.
He also called on Lord Adonis to publicly pressure BA to "put back on the table" the settlement offer it made last week.
This offer - the details of which are unknown - was withdrawn by BA on Friday after the airline said it was conditional on strike action being averted.
"If Lord Adonis is not prepared to speak out, he risks being seen as taking the part of a bullying and intransigent management," added the Unite spokesman.
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An American journalists view on bail outs:
In the US, the government has bailed out a number of airlines a number of times. Whether it will happen again, we don't know. On the other hand, in Europe, due to European Community Law, the government cannot bail out (or even own an airline-which was what got Olympic in trouble with the EEC in the first place).
They were a government run airline losing hundreds of millions of dollars a year and being subsidized by the Greek Government. The EEC doesn't like that because they recognize that it would give an airline an unfair advantage which non-subsidized airlines cannot compete against. So... European airlines can go down just as quickly (if not quicker) than US airlines.
In the US, the government has bailed out a number of airlines a number of times. Whether it will happen again, we don't know. On the other hand, in Europe, due to European Community Law, the government cannot bail out (or even own an airline-which was what got Olympic in trouble with the EEC in the first place).
They were a government run airline losing hundreds of millions of dollars a year and being subsidized by the Greek Government. The EEC doesn't like that because they recognize that it would give an airline an unfair advantage which non-subsidized airlines cannot compete against. So... European airlines can go down just as quickly (if not quicker) than US airlines.
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BA have already secured cash reserves for the duration of the dispute - £300m from the City, and £300m from the pension fund.
As Bassa described it, they have a £600m war chest.
As Bassa described it, they have a £600m war chest.
Walsh said: 'At the end of the last quarter we had reserves of over £2bn. I hope it does not come to it, but we are prepared for this strike and can afford it.'
Source: - http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/markets/article.html?in_article_id=501054
Source: - http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/markets/article.html?in_article_id=501054
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£600m war chest
Many thanks to Mid for some figures.
A £600m war chest to secure a £60m per annum saving does mean that Mr Walsh is in it to win it.
From the UNITE spokesman
With a war chest of £600m and the resolve of Mr Walsh, it is becoming increasingly clear that the ultimate settlement that UNITE/BASSA will secure with BA is evaporating by the day. I think it is apparent to most on this forum that there is a pacemaker and the other party is off the pace.
None of us are privy to what political manoeuverings are taking place behind the scenes at Transport House but the bill is going to be footed by some very decent and hard working people.
A £600m war chest to secure a £60m per annum saving does mean that Mr Walsh is in it to win it.
From the UNITE spokesman
He also called on Lord Adonis to publicly pressure BA to "put back on the table" the settlement offer it made last week.
None of us are privy to what political manoeuverings are taking place behind the scenes at Transport House but the bill is going to be footed by some very decent and hard working people.
Last edited by Rover90; 14th Mar 2010 at 14:29. Reason: can't spell "manoeuverings"
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Len McLuskey's speech on 14 December
Is it worth remembering what Unite's Mr McLuskey said to the Sandown Park meeting on 14th December last year? The link is YouTube - SANDOWN PARK 14.12.09 14.00.mpg and a very interesting part of his speech is around 1 minute 23 seconds into the video.