British Airways - CC Industrial Relations Mk VI
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this is a fair representation of where we are currently and who needs to review and update their present stance
ever considered that unite may just be incompetent?
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Thats a given!
As someone left of centre politically the Unite / BASSA handling of this dispute makes me feel ashamed
This has become an internal Unite power struggle - the cannon fodder if it goes ahead will be their members - Disgusting and connot be defended.
Len and LaLa need to hang their heads in shame
Your thoughts Litebulb?
ps any chance of hot nibbles and I prefer red wine pls!
As someone left of centre politically the Unite / BASSA handling of this dispute makes me feel ashamed
This has become an internal Unite power struggle - the cannon fodder if it goes ahead will be their members - Disgusting and connot be defended.
Len and LaLa need to hang their heads in shame
Your thoughts Litebulb?
ps any chance of hot nibbles and I prefer red wine pls!
Last edited by cym; 14th Mar 2010 at 18:55.
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Polaxed52
Speaking as an outsider, I just want to say- don't cave, WW is playing a game of bluff. If BA go down it will not be because of this dispute. If this action was really going to bring BA down- WW would cave before the strike, if not you strike until that threat exists and then WW will cave. WW's responsibility is to his bonus- put in place by the shareholders in order to ensure his performance, if he were to allow BA to fail because he wouldn't back down to a union, then he would lose his job and his bonus. It really is as simple as that, if you stay united(he bets that you won't),and stay strong, then you will win, he is in the position of weakness and he knows it. GOOD LUCK!!
I really hope all the militants strike and stay out, united and striking until the threat of BAs demise exists. In the meantime the 40% of cabin crew who didn't vote for the strike, together with those who bottle the strike and come to work anyway, the volunteers, the 23 wet leased aircraft, the consolidated flights within BA and the passengers dispersed on other carriers will ensure that its business pretty much as usual at BA.
Those waiting for Mr Walsh to cave will, I suggest have a long wait - a very long one.
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Thats a given!
As someone left of centre politically Unite / BASSA handling of this dispute make me feel ashamed
This has become an internal Unite power struggle - the cannon fodder if it goes ahead will be their members - Disgusting and connot be defended.
Len and LaLa need to hang their heads in shame
Your thoughts Litebulb?
ps any chance of hot nibbles and I prefer red wine pls!
As someone left of centre politically Unite / BASSA handling of this dispute make me feel ashamed
This has become an internal Unite power struggle - the cannon fodder if it goes ahead will be their members - Disgusting and connot be defended.
Len and LaLa need to hang their heads in shame
Your thoughts Litebulb?
ps any chance of hot nibbles and I prefer red wine pls!
In saying that it is just an internal power struggle is not, in my opinion, true. It is a factor and has been commented on by a Judge, so there is no hiding from it. However, to say that means that 7000+ Unite members have no mind of there own. I doubt strongly that this is the case.
I do not know about the dynamics of the BASSA reps group and how they do business. If I was a BASSA member and a rep threatened me, I would take it as a challenge to point out the error of their way, by whatever means necessary. I still find it hard to believe that the cabin crew community is capable of bullying each other at the levels suggested.
I have sympathy with people like HighFlyer, GlamGirl and Tiramisu and why they want to set up an alternative group. I have had many conversations with colleagues, debating whether the benefits of a large union outweigh the benefits of a small, role specific one.
I believe with the political names who have now gone public with their thoughts, that their will not be a strike. When the Labour Party speaks out so openly on the issue, then you have all the cards stacked against you.
However, keep backing a wounded dog into a corner..............
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Litebulbs
I can see where you are coming from.
Have loads of friends still BA CC and the truth is the degree of bullying and disinformation that goes on from BASSA defies belief. When I could I made a concious decission not to join on that basis alone.
Over the last few months I've felt like a teacher - giving mates facts and options - thats not my job - it is BASSA's and you still come up against the fear factor consistently.
Also there;s the 'need to send management a message' and 'dont worry management will back down' type message - its bordering on subliminal.
In my view that isn't right for a union who are PAID by their members to protect their best interests to act in such a manner.
No hot nibbles I take it?
Have loads of friends still BA CC and the truth is the degree of bullying and disinformation that goes on from BASSA defies belief. When I could I made a concious decission not to join on that basis alone.
Over the last few months I've felt like a teacher - giving mates facts and options - thats not my job - it is BASSA's and you still come up against the fear factor consistently.
Also there;s the 'need to send management a message' and 'dont worry management will back down' type message - its bordering on subliminal.
In my view that isn't right for a union who are PAID by their members to protect their best interests to act in such a manner.
No hot nibbles I take it?
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Man food in the oven (and after microwave defrosting as I forgot to get it out of the freezer), as the better half has left me to fend for myself for a few days!
Where the threats of a physical nature?
Where the threats of a physical nature?
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Lord Adonis has really riled me weighing into an industrial dispute in such a biased way. No mention at all of the havoc wreaked by unilateral bullying management with no regard for staff loyalty or indeed welfare.
Anyway, can I just suggest two courses of action and their result from the perspective of Crew.
1/ Most crew, or at least 4-5000 on duty during strike days don't strike. WW withdraws staff travel from the crew that are ill, or do strike. The airline's losses from the strike are entirely due to ill-conceived plans laid up to break the strike. I say ill conceived because I don't think it will be possible, for all sorts of technical reasons from visas through to public safety, insurance etc, to run the airline solely based on the recently trained temporary crew.
Immediately WW declares an imagined sum to cover these losses and any other costs he can assign to it. He announces that there will have to be a permanent 2.6% pay cut across the board in addition to previous changes. Additionally he declares that all 'expensive' routes will go to a new long haul fleet and away from LHR WW.
In other words, crew lose out big time, and the eventual result will be the decimation of the current crew either to the four winds or to a new, much lower paid fleet. One that will only support single people living at home or in shared accommodation.
2/ The strike is all but universally observed. As I said above, my opinion is that WW will not be able to run any significant number of flights. However, lets assume that he runs a basic service to key US destinations and a number of other destinations around the world. The losses will still be pretty huge, and the union will be in a stronger position than it is now. They will be in a position to institute pretty random short term strikes for the forseeable future with the immediate demand of a re-instatement of staff travel to all and the heavy suggestion that having a bully at the helm is a bad way to run a company.
In the short term, crew keep much of their agreements, at worst BA loose up to £100m a year some years, and make a few hundred some years, though I doubt that - I think much of the current losses are the amortization and write down of assets in a clever way to exaggerate losses. I think they're generally in profit. Certainly the claimed £60m of savings isn't going to sway it significantly in either direction. In the medium term, a more reasonable management style is introduced and much of the wasteful crew agreements are eroded away item by item. Larger savings are made and BA remains in it's niche of being a full service, full destination list premium airline.
My prognosis for BA as a budget airline? Wouldn't last 5 years. Aer Lingus hasn't lasted that long after WW wreaked havoc there has it?
Anyway, can I just suggest two courses of action and their result from the perspective of Crew.
1/ Most crew, or at least 4-5000 on duty during strike days don't strike. WW withdraws staff travel from the crew that are ill, or do strike. The airline's losses from the strike are entirely due to ill-conceived plans laid up to break the strike. I say ill conceived because I don't think it will be possible, for all sorts of technical reasons from visas through to public safety, insurance etc, to run the airline solely based on the recently trained temporary crew.
Immediately WW declares an imagined sum to cover these losses and any other costs he can assign to it. He announces that there will have to be a permanent 2.6% pay cut across the board in addition to previous changes. Additionally he declares that all 'expensive' routes will go to a new long haul fleet and away from LHR WW.
In other words, crew lose out big time, and the eventual result will be the decimation of the current crew either to the four winds or to a new, much lower paid fleet. One that will only support single people living at home or in shared accommodation.
2/ The strike is all but universally observed. As I said above, my opinion is that WW will not be able to run any significant number of flights. However, lets assume that he runs a basic service to key US destinations and a number of other destinations around the world. The losses will still be pretty huge, and the union will be in a stronger position than it is now. They will be in a position to institute pretty random short term strikes for the forseeable future with the immediate demand of a re-instatement of staff travel to all and the heavy suggestion that having a bully at the helm is a bad way to run a company.
In the short term, crew keep much of their agreements, at worst BA loose up to £100m a year some years, and make a few hundred some years, though I doubt that - I think much of the current losses are the amortization and write down of assets in a clever way to exaggerate losses. I think they're generally in profit. Certainly the claimed £60m of savings isn't going to sway it significantly in either direction. In the medium term, a more reasonable management style is introduced and much of the wasteful crew agreements are eroded away item by item. Larger savings are made and BA remains in it's niche of being a full service, full destination list premium airline.
My prognosis for BA as a budget airline? Wouldn't last 5 years. Aer Lingus hasn't lasted that long after WW wreaked havoc there has it?
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I hope to god that this week sees some movement and the two sides get together.
I don't believe for one moment that WW will even be able to get 50% of the flights away come Saturday.
The whole thing is a bloody mess.
I don't believe for one moment that WW will even be able to get 50% of the flights away come Saturday.
The whole thing is a bloody mess.
Cleverly disguised as a responsible adult
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Where the threats of a physical nature?
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BA's profits
ba.husband wrote:
Unfortunately, some people still believe this. Are the auditors also complicit in the deceit that BA is profitable but reporting huge losses?
Also, there is the matter of the £3.7bn pension deficit - or is that an exaggeration as well?
I think much of the current losses are the amortization and write down of assets in a clever way to exaggerate losses. I think they're generally in profit.
Also, there is the matter of the £3.7bn pension deficit - or is that an exaggeration as well?
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cym,
I'm afraid you are incorrect. There have been a few physical threats, although thankfully, these are very much in the minority and I doubt very much whether the people that have used them would ever actually be brave enough to carry them out.
However, there is a bigger threat and one that's been used to great effect. Peer pressure and the threat of isolation. Cabin crew are a sociable bunch by the very nature of the work we do and the thought of being stuck on your own, on every single trip with no one talking to you is not particularly pleasant. I'll admit that I'm a pretty unsociable sort at the best of times, but even I find that a little daunting. As many of you will no doubt know, a hotel room can be one of the loneliest places in the world...
I'm afraid you are incorrect. There have been a few physical threats, although thankfully, these are very much in the minority and I doubt very much whether the people that have used them would ever actually be brave enough to carry them out.
However, there is a bigger threat and one that's been used to great effect. Peer pressure and the threat of isolation. Cabin crew are a sociable bunch by the very nature of the work we do and the thought of being stuck on your own, on every single trip with no one talking to you is not particularly pleasant. I'll admit that I'm a pretty unsociable sort at the best of times, but even I find that a little daunting. As many of you will no doubt know, a hotel room can be one of the loneliest places in the world...
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BA.Husband
Public safety risk?? I heard WW say on Radio 4 that all volunteer's had at least five years service with the airline. Many are very experienced Captains, First Officers, Maintenance Engineers, ground staff qualified in first aid etc.
The ground based and flight crew volunteers have all done courses approved by the CAA.
Public safety risk?? I heard WW say on Radio 4 that all volunteer's had at least five years service with the airline. Many are very experienced Captains, First Officers, Maintenance Engineers, ground staff qualified in first aid etc.
The ground based and flight crew volunteers have all done courses approved by the CAA.
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Litebulbs
I have sympathy with people like HighFlyer, GlamGirl and Tiramisu and why they want to set up an alternative group. I have had many conversations with colleagues, debating whether the benefits of a large union outweigh the benefits of a small, role specific one.
Bassas main problem is that its reps are too top heavy - too many CSDs, not enough rank and file. Are they really a union worthy of representing the entire cabin crew do you think ?
Any union should have reps of every role and a reasonably even distribution. BASSA reps have basically looked out for CSDs and sold every other poor bugger down the river.
As for UNITE, they could come out of this saga in a right mess if they're not careful.
So, as to your point above. I think employee representation is more relevant today than UNIONs can ever be. Hopefully, the PCCC can provide this.
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Openclimb
Its polax52
Don't you understand that even if only 10% of flights were cancelled the strike would be extremely effective. Airlines cannot afford to sit any aircraft on the ground for any unscheduled length of time. A typical aircraft costs 700,000 dollars a month to lease or finance and airports charge by the hour to sit aircraft on the ground and its not cheap, passengers have to be accommodated and compensated, or flights paid for on other airlines. If BA really are as close to bankruptcy as is suggested, they have either to give in or allow the company to go out of business, which of course they will not do.
I would like to see this dispute resolved, but ww even acknowledges that he goes into negotiations in an unreasonable and antagonistic manner because he believes you get nothing out of being fair. Well now it is the turn of the crew to be antagonistic.
I'm totally behind the crew, though this thread so far doesn't indicate that they are behind themselves.
Its polax52
Don't you understand that even if only 10% of flights were cancelled the strike would be extremely effective. Airlines cannot afford to sit any aircraft on the ground for any unscheduled length of time. A typical aircraft costs 700,000 dollars a month to lease or finance and airports charge by the hour to sit aircraft on the ground and its not cheap, passengers have to be accommodated and compensated, or flights paid for on other airlines. If BA really are as close to bankruptcy as is suggested, they have either to give in or allow the company to go out of business, which of course they will not do.
I would like to see this dispute resolved, but ww even acknowledges that he goes into negotiations in an unreasonable and antagonistic manner because he believes you get nothing out of being fair. Well now it is the turn of the crew to be antagonistic.
I'm totally behind the crew, though this thread so far doesn't indicate that they are behind themselves.
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ArthurScargill
Some well made and interesting points. It is for BASSA as a representative body to understand and adjust this imbalance (I am taking your word for this, as I do not know).
It really is a strange situation, because when I was a rep at BA (not crew), the balance was the other way round.
It really is a strange situation, because when I was a rep at BA (not crew), the balance was the other way round.
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It would seem that the power struggle extends beyond the bounds of the control of BA as well.
Len McCluskey is aiming for the position of General Secretary of Unite at the moment as well.
From the 'Vote for Len' website UNITE 4 LEN / Home(my bold):
The worry in this is that irrespective of a successful outcome i.e. either bankrupting the company by intransigence and failure to change or bleeding the company dry through successive strikes Len would be hailed the victor.
So Len will continue to enjoy his £140,000+ lifestyle (not bad for an ex docker) and his taste for expensive restaurants (on expenses after the last Trade Union Congress) whilst those he successfully represented are finding new jobs.
So, 'victory' or not Len will continue even if BA doesn't. Kinda nice to know when you are shivering on the picket line or queuing at the Job Centre isn't it.
Len McCluskey is aiming for the position of General Secretary of Unite at the moment as well.
From the 'Vote for Len' website UNITE 4 LEN / Home(my bold):
Len is now Unite's assistant general secretary for industrial strategy. In that role he has successfully led negotiations and campaigns across most sections of our membership, including British Airways, oil tanker drivers, in the bus industry, and in the food and drink industries. He has by far the broadest range of industrial experience of any candidate in this election.
So Len will continue to enjoy his £140,000+ lifestyle (not bad for an ex docker) and his taste for expensive restaurants (on expenses after the last Trade Union Congress) whilst those he successfully represented are finding new jobs.
So, 'victory' or not Len will continue even if BA doesn't. Kinda nice to know when you are shivering on the picket line or queuing at the Job Centre isn't it.
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Wow polax - Do you think the Looney Len is a fair man. Remember this. BA offered a fantastic deal to UNITE last week. A deal that had BASSA offered it to their members, IMO, the CC would have lapped at the hand that feeds, nd said, 'thank you - we'll take it', and the whole affair could have moved on. But, NO. Looney Len called, 'STRIKE'. Now that the BA offer is finding it's way toythe members by various means - not by BASSA BTW, Loonet Len is pleading for the offer to be retabled for negotiation. Fair play by Looney Lenn? - my ar$e. Self serving, underhand game playing by a self-confessed, left winger on his own agenda to the garner the top job with scant regard for the wreckage in his wake.
BA are playing this very fair, because they are playing this in public for all to scrutinise. I see no criticism of Mr Walsh - because he is being fair.
GF
BA are playing this very fair, because they are playing this in public for all to scrutinise. I see no criticism of Mr Walsh - because he is being fair.
GF