British Airways - CC Industrial Relations Mk VI
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polax52 wrote:
Can I remind you that it is some cabin crew who will strike, not WW! In fact, the vast majority of BA employees disagree with striking, and will keep working to preserve their company and their jobs.
If they don't bottle it they will win, unless ww vindictively allows BA to go bankrupt.
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We are quite serious here - if you would like to contribute, then grasp the issue at hand instead of the intangible, off-topic, rabble-rousing, divisive issue of "it's management - they can't win"
Tell me - for example - what exactly you find wrong with management who seek to permit crews greater time with loved ones, without cutting their take-home. It is these issues that the union has failed to communicate to crew, and that BA will see significant savings through tackling.
If that is your intransigent view, you would never be able to negotiate anything. Remember that negotiating requires give and take - something the reps in question clearly forgot.
After suggesting that you are not crew, you now suggest that you are, so what is it then?
Tell me - for example - what exactly you find wrong with management who seek to permit crews greater time with loved ones, without cutting their take-home. It is these issues that the union has failed to communicate to crew, and that BA will see significant savings through tackling.
why management should not be allowed to win this dispute
After suggesting that you are not crew, you now suggest that you are, so what is it then?
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BASSA Response to BA Offer
So BASSA / Unite
.... If you are so anti it why do you want Fri's offer retabled and offered to an open vote by your members?
Why did Len choose to go public with strike dates when a resonable offer had been tabled by BA?
Why, as a union have you now changed your stance - if it was a pig on Fri when you made your annoucement and broke one of the conditions of the offer why is it now something Len is saying he wants to offer up now? Prepared to honour the terms of the orginal offer ie no strike dates and the consequental damage to BA? How do you propose to deal with the resulting costs? Other departments and BA shareholders to take the hot caused as a direct result of your?
f*s grow up and start doing what your members pay you for - to represent the majority of them (with knowldge on whats on the table rather than what you want them to know)
BASSA - I know you read this forum - why the silence - bit too hot for you? Too many questions you choose to ignore??
.... If you are so anti it why do you want Fri's offer retabled and offered to an open vote by your members?
Why did Len choose to go public with strike dates when a resonable offer had been tabled by BA?
Why, as a union have you now changed your stance - if it was a pig on Fri when you made your annoucement and broke one of the conditions of the offer why is it now something Len is saying he wants to offer up now? Prepared to honour the terms of the orginal offer ie no strike dates and the consequental damage to BA? How do you propose to deal with the resulting costs? Other departments and BA shareholders to take the hot caused as a direct result of your?
f*s grow up and start doing what your members pay you for - to represent the majority of them (with knowldge on whats on the table rather than what you want them to know)
BASSA - I know you read this forum - why the silence - bit too hot for you? Too many questions you choose to ignore??
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If you would like to start pontificating on surgical techniques, you can try Cleft - Bridging the Gap , in the meantime you can let the serious crewmembers discuss, why management should not be allowed to win this dispute.
Serious crewmembers? You? Dont make me laugh!
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polaxe52
I am very curious about this word "vindictively". It is clear that you are saying that if BA goes bankrupt, (and I have to say that in the current trading conditions and the pension deficit and, and.... high cost base there is a distinct possibility), that it would be a vindictive act if he were to allow bankruptcy to happen. Did I get that right?
If that is the case, surely what he is trying to do by reducing costs is to avoid this possibility.
As much is I would like things to remain unchallenged in your fluffy world view, I do not think you can have it both ways.
If they don't bottle it they will win, unless ww vindictively allows BA to go bankrupt.
If that is the case, surely what he is trying to do by reducing costs is to avoid this possibility.
As much is I would like things to remain unchallenged in your fluffy world view, I do not think you can have it both ways.
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polax - I notice from your past posts that your experience in (through family) in FR's appalling work practices and (rightly) the abdication of FAA responsibility for safety by relying on collective bargaining post deregulation in the US.
Humbly, might I point out that this is a totally different situation. While I agree with your sentiment in your past posts that it is undesirable to be unrepresented in large businesses, I might point out that this involves gross misrepresentation by the very reps who have been elected to look out for their colleagues.
Read more...
Humbly, might I point out that this is a totally different situation. While I agree with your sentiment in your past posts that it is undesirable to be unrepresented in large businesses, I might point out that this involves gross misrepresentation by the very reps who have been elected to look out for their colleagues.
Read more...
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Having read this
http://www.bassa.co.uk/bassa/downloa...DFFile-842.pdf
I can totally see why they wouldn't recommend it to their members. Should really be no problem that the offer has been removed as it was a far reaching and vague offer that could have seen crew t&c completely changed.
Shame they couldn't communicate so well to their member throughout the past year.
Even has some common sense plain english advice at the end!
http://www.bassa.co.uk/bassa/downloa...DFFile-842.pdf
I can totally see why they wouldn't recommend it to their members. Should really be no problem that the offer has been removed as it was a far reaching and vague offer that could have seen crew t&c completely changed.
Shame they couldn't communicate so well to their member throughout the past year.
Even has some common sense plain english advice at the end!
Bottom line? All we can do is point out in good faith the potential pitfalls;
that’s our role. If this offer becomes available again at any point, it will
be your choice whether you chose to accept it.
If you do, we will of course respect your wishes, but the responsibility for
what that could mean in the future, must rest with you.
that’s our role. If this offer becomes available again at any point, it will
be your choice whether you chose to accept it.
If you do, we will of course respect your wishes, but the responsibility for
what that could mean in the future, must rest with you.
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Gordon Brown intervenes in BA strike
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I wasn't suggesting that he would vindictively allow the airline to go out of business, I was sayng the opposite. My original post was in support of the crew but clearly this thread is not the appropriate place. Either the BA cabin crew have changed their mind about the need to strike or this is a management thread.
openclimb- Enlighten me, why are the crew going on strike if the changes involve receiving the same pay and more time at home? If that's the case we'll have willie at my airline.
As for being a serious crewmember I stood on a picket line for 11 days in Anchorage Alaska, fighting for the jobs of my colleagues. Something that you probably would never be man enough to do.
openclimb- Enlighten me, why are the crew going on strike if the changes involve receiving the same pay and more time at home? If that's the case we'll have willie at my airline.
As for being a serious crewmember I stood on a picket line for 11 days in Anchorage Alaska, fighting for the jobs of my colleagues. Something that you probably would never be man enough to do.
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So - if we debate something whereby any view accepts that management might be reasonable, that is unacceptable to you? Nobody has prevented you from posting here; quite the contrary.
Fact is that gross inefficiencies could be ironed out and people could spend more time at home if only the union engaged with management and negotiated. Nothing like that has happened as they find the intricacies of those inefficiencies an effective way to exert power.
The BA proposal is sketchy and inadequate in present form, but could form the basis of something sensible, yes.
Understand the issues and the larger power game...I doubt anyone here is management or willing to permit them carte blanche...
Fact is that gross inefficiencies could be ironed out and people could spend more time at home if only the union engaged with management and negotiated. Nothing like that has happened as they find the intricacies of those inefficiencies an effective way to exert power.
The BA proposal is sketchy and inadequate in present form, but could form the basis of something sensible, yes.
Understand the issues and the larger power game...I doubt anyone here is management or willing to permit them carte blanche...
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polax52
This strike is about an imposition that involved a VOLUNTARY reduction of workforce, and a scheme that is already working well, with BASSA's cooperation, at other locales.
No wage reduction, nothing regarding New Fleet, all of those are side issues but they are not what BASSA is insisting on striking over.
There is a reason that Gordon Brown called Unite. He is well aware of how unpopular this issue is with the general public and even with other unions.
BASSA, through much grandstanding and overblown rhetoric, have put themselves in a very difficult situation.
This is hardly a "management" thread. Most individuals that post here seem to be "bread and butter" employees of BA. What is frustrating is when pro-BASSA individuals refuse to discuss the immediate issue at hand and simply speak as if all management is bad, therefore this strike must be appropriate.
The situation is certainly much more nuanced that that approach would suggest.
This strike is about an imposition that involved a VOLUNTARY reduction of workforce, and a scheme that is already working well, with BASSA's cooperation, at other locales.
No wage reduction, nothing regarding New Fleet, all of those are side issues but they are not what BASSA is insisting on striking over.
There is a reason that Gordon Brown called Unite. He is well aware of how unpopular this issue is with the general public and even with other unions.
BASSA, through much grandstanding and overblown rhetoric, have put themselves in a very difficult situation.
This is hardly a "management" thread. Most individuals that post here seem to be "bread and butter" employees of BA. What is frustrating is when pro-BASSA individuals refuse to discuss the immediate issue at hand and simply speak as if all management is bad, therefore this strike must be appropriate.
The situation is certainly much more nuanced that that approach would suggest.
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Diplome
The debate about crew reduction has been closed.
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There have been a few previously, but a fair amount of bullying from a small minority has driven them away, to the detriment of this thread.
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Litebulbs
Okay, there have been some 'stern words' said, but to be fair the thing that seems to have driven off most of the BASSA supporters on this thread, has been demands for them to explain. Looked at objectively, quite a lot of BASSA support has been short, sharp and mostly puerile 'cheap shots'.
There have been more reasoned 'BASSA' responses and you are still here, after all!
But the moment someone says; 'where is your evidence?' 'Show your source.' Or 'how can that be justified?' Answer comes there none.
Polax52.
You appear to be surprised at the responses you got from this thread? Again viewed objectively, you barged in with some quite inflamatory statements and were then offended when those who have been on this thread for months, gave you short shrift. I have been watching this thread for its entirety and its previous incarnation and I have to say I am staggered at the almost total lack of substance to the BASSA action. However, it is a complex issue, with its roots - as others have tried to explain - way back in the days of BOAC and BEA. Judged by your age, you perhaps wouldn't know that they were British Overseas Airways Corporation and British European Airways.
When the disposition of crews on modern aircraft that cross the Atlantic in hours rather than days, are set by protocols established for Stratocruisers and Constellations, then something must change. BASSA appear unwilling to allow this to happen and are prepared to sacrifice their members to demonstrate this.
Next time, read a bit more of the story before commenting so forcefully.
Roger.
There have been more reasoned 'BASSA' responses and you are still here, after all!
But the moment someone says; 'where is your evidence?' 'Show your source.' Or 'how can that be justified?' Answer comes there none. Polax52.
You appear to be surprised at the responses you got from this thread? Again viewed objectively, you barged in with some quite inflamatory statements and were then offended when those who have been on this thread for months, gave you short shrift. I have been watching this thread for its entirety and its previous incarnation and I have to say I am staggered at the almost total lack of substance to the BASSA action. However, it is a complex issue, with its roots - as others have tried to explain - way back in the days of BOAC and BEA. Judged by your age, you perhaps wouldn't know that they were British Overseas Airways Corporation and British European Airways.
When the disposition of crews on modern aircraft that cross the Atlantic in hours rather than days, are set by protocols established for Stratocruisers and Constellations, then something must change. BASSA appear unwilling to allow this to happen and are prepared to sacrifice their members to demonstrate this.
Next time, read a bit more of the story before commenting so forcefully.
Roger.
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From BASSA's detailed critique of BA's proposal:
Well, well. Maybe BASSA should leak this to the press! Apparently BA is (or is planning to) break all kinds of safety requirements and fly us around the world on broken and ill maintained aircraft.
In the US BASSA would be in court now for slander.
Secure access for current crew on new aircraft types to ensure we are not left to simply wither on the vine… on an ageing fleet of old, broken, ill
maintained aircraft.
maintained aircraft.
In the US BASSA would be in court now for slander.
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The Way Forward
Been reading BASSA's interpretation of BA's latest proposal - The Way Forward. Interesting reading! A few of my comments:
New Fleet will have its own routes - both long and shorthaul
Why do you hate the idea of doing mixed flying? It brings FLEXIBILITY into the working pattern.
Cabin Crew on New Fleet will have different terms and conditions
In the 21st century it is no longer possible to work on terms and conditions from the 70's.
Cabin Crew on New Fleet will stay in minimum specifed hotel, probably at the airport
The typical BASSA scaremongering! Has BA revealed any information about where New Fleet will be staying? I assume after the strike mainline crew would also have to settle with minimum specified hotels - "probably at the airport" - as costs would need to be found somewhere - plus everything else. As you make your bed...
Cabin Crew on New Fleet will have NO seniority and no bidding for working positions
I don't think too many crew would mind - crew still complaining after 13 years of service that they are sometimes at the bottom of the list.
"Performance" will be based on sickness, general attendance, customer satisfaction, punctuality, uniform standards etc
I can understand why BASSA seems to have a problem with this - seeing as they don't know how to be on time and turning up to agreed meetings - and also texting throughout the meetings.
Flying allowance will be based upon hourly rate resembling LGW
Which you - BASSA - encouraged LGW crew to vote in favour for - let's say you win this dispute - will you be doing ANYTHING to change things down at LGW?
Promotion to single supervisor will be merit based and available for all external applicants both within and without the company
Merit sounds a lot more suitable than seniority. Just because you have done 30 years in the company does not mean you would make an excellent CSD.
There will be rostered GROUND duties
Surprised that you haven't provided any example of what those ground duties could be - would it be any of your similar suggestions? Refuelling aircraft and onloading bags?
LGW hourly rate is now taxed at 65%
Because you didn't negotiate properly - if you had done your homework and negotiated as adults all of you could have been taxed less.
Cabin Crew will have achievement linked - performance rated pay
Again - why does the word performance scare you to death? Is there anything wrong with doing a GOOD job and getting RECOGNITION for it?
New Fleet will operate with reduced crew complements
Let me think - similar to LGW which you agreed to in order for BA to leave LHR alone?
As another member on here suggested - if this had been the United States you would have been in court a long time ago charged with slander.
New Fleet will have its own routes - both long and shorthaul
Why do you hate the idea of doing mixed flying? It brings FLEXIBILITY into the working pattern.
Cabin Crew on New Fleet will have different terms and conditions
In the 21st century it is no longer possible to work on terms and conditions from the 70's.
Cabin Crew on New Fleet will stay in minimum specifed hotel, probably at the airport
The typical BASSA scaremongering! Has BA revealed any information about where New Fleet will be staying? I assume after the strike mainline crew would also have to settle with minimum specified hotels - "probably at the airport" - as costs would need to be found somewhere - plus everything else. As you make your bed...
Cabin Crew on New Fleet will have NO seniority and no bidding for working positions
I don't think too many crew would mind - crew still complaining after 13 years of service that they are sometimes at the bottom of the list.
"Performance" will be based on sickness, general attendance, customer satisfaction, punctuality, uniform standards etc
I can understand why BASSA seems to have a problem with this - seeing as they don't know how to be on time and turning up to agreed meetings - and also texting throughout the meetings.
Flying allowance will be based upon hourly rate resembling LGW
Which you - BASSA - encouraged LGW crew to vote in favour for - let's say you win this dispute - will you be doing ANYTHING to change things down at LGW?
Promotion to single supervisor will be merit based and available for all external applicants both within and without the company
Merit sounds a lot more suitable than seniority. Just because you have done 30 years in the company does not mean you would make an excellent CSD.
There will be rostered GROUND duties
Surprised that you haven't provided any example of what those ground duties could be - would it be any of your similar suggestions? Refuelling aircraft and onloading bags?
LGW hourly rate is now taxed at 65%
Because you didn't negotiate properly - if you had done your homework and negotiated as adults all of you could have been taxed less.
Cabin Crew will have achievement linked - performance rated pay
Again - why does the word performance scare you to death? Is there anything wrong with doing a GOOD job and getting RECOGNITION for it?
New Fleet will operate with reduced crew complements
Let me think - similar to LGW which you agreed to in order for BA to leave LHR alone?
As another member on here suggested - if this had been the United States you would have been in court a long time ago charged with slander.
Re the "ill-maintained" fleet. It would be libel rather than slander, actually, but if true, I doubt whether BA would do much other than laugh with disbelief at this latest own goal in the succession of kamikaze cock ups by the union. I am sure that BA's engineers will be delighted about the cabin crew union's expert judgement of their "ill-maintenance" abilities.
Together with earlier misjudgements and now Unite's farcical suggestion that BA should put back on the table a proposal which the former has repeatedly confirmed that it will refuse to recommend, I really do wonder on what basis members continue to have any confidence in McCluskey & his ilk. These clowns have arguably now managed through their sheer incompetence to lose support from the majority of fellow staff, shareholders, customers, the courts, most of the media and now amazingly, even their own Labour government. It would be funny were it not for the fact that each day they bring BA closer to the brink through their antics, and sadly have already negated many times over the sacrifices made by their colleagues at BA.
Together with earlier misjudgements and now Unite's farcical suggestion that BA should put back on the table a proposal which the former has repeatedly confirmed that it will refuse to recommend, I really do wonder on what basis members continue to have any confidence in McCluskey & his ilk. These clowns have arguably now managed through their sheer incompetence to lose support from the majority of fellow staff, shareholders, customers, the courts, most of the media and now amazingly, even their own Labour government. It would be funny were it not for the fact that each day they bring BA closer to the brink through their antics, and sadly have already negated many times over the sacrifices made by their colleagues at BA.
Last edited by Max Tow; 15th Mar 2010 at 08:04.
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This may have gone unnoticed, but is surely very relevant to BA's need to cut costs.
The Civil Aviation Authority also warns of a prolonged downturn for the UK airline industry tomorrow as it confirms that last year saw the steepest fall in air passenger numbers since the second world war. UK airports handled 218 million passengers during 2009, a fall of 17 million on 2008, said the aviation watchdog.
"Passenger numbers are back to the level they were six years ago … and it could be a number of years before they reach their peak again," said Harry Bush, director of economic regulation at the CAA.
"Passenger numbers are back to the level they were six years ago … and it could be a number of years before they reach their peak again," said Harry Bush, director of economic regulation at the CAA.
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Litebulbs:
I may be mistaken but I believe that the post you refer to does not eliminate commentary as to whether or not imposition of reduction in Cabin Crew was reasonable or not, which is supposed to be the basis for this strike.
If I remember correctly that statement came about because of an exchange by other members regarding training payments, workers being forced out, etc..
Perhaps, if they deem it necessary, the moderators can clarify the issue for posters.
That´s correct Diplome.
The Mods
I may be mistaken but I believe that the post you refer to does not eliminate commentary as to whether or not imposition of reduction in Cabin Crew was reasonable or not, which is supposed to be the basis for this strike.
If I remember correctly that statement came about because of an exchange by other members regarding training payments, workers being forced out, etc..
Perhaps, if they deem it necessary, the moderators can clarify the issue for posters.
That´s correct Diplome.
The Mods
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master plan
BA`s master plan to combat the strikes revealed
British Airways Plans to Use Ships to Transport Passengers During Strike
British Airways Plans to Use Ships to Transport Passengers During Strike