British Airways - CC Industrial Relations Mk VI
Couldonlyaffordafiver
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So as things stand, we find out tonight (until BASSA allow BA to walk over that line in the sand and draw another one.... 
).
Some thoughts.
If this goes to a strike, once again we know that people who had left BASSA were sent ballot papers. From the precedent previously set in December, we know the courts would declare this strike illegal, especially given that the turnout was less so incorrect ballot papers will have been more likely to materially effect the result. This gives BA an extremely strong hand. Strike if you want, but it will be illegal and we will bankrupt you afterwards - not something Unite will want to hear.
BA are entirely in control and realistically have three options. First, they can allow the strike to go ahead, which will almost certainly crumble after a few days and impose the remainder of their wish list when everyone comes back to work. Expect lockouts and general unpleasantness with the unedifying prospect of BA giving 90 days notice of termination of all cabin crew contracts.
Second, allow an "illegal" strike to go ahead and subsequently go to town on Unite/BASSA and it's membership. The courts would no doubt take a dim view of the same law being broken a second time and would doubtless give BA, if not carte blanche, an awful lot of freedom to manoeuvre.
The third option is that a deal is actually done. It's probably the outside bet but there's always the chance and given the above, probably Unite's preferred option. If a deal is done, expect the ongoing appeal against the second part of the "imposition" case to disappear. Also, expect much of BA's wish list to be granted, along with a no-strike deal.
I would be surprised if Unite allow any solution to go to a member's vote. If there is any sniff of a pay cut (which would seem to be the only way Unite can meet BA's needs), the answer will be no and given that Unite's only recourse would be a further strike ballot, of which they can't be assured of sufficient support (which is why we're in this situation now), they can't take the chance.
Finally, I would not want to walk out on strike if I was not 100% certain it was legal. As an individual, I would be taking a huge risk with my future. Namely that I would certainly lose my job and would not be an attractive prospect for any future employer.
).Some thoughts.
If this goes to a strike, once again we know that people who had left BASSA were sent ballot papers. From the precedent previously set in December, we know the courts would declare this strike illegal, especially given that the turnout was less so incorrect ballot papers will have been more likely to materially effect the result. This gives BA an extremely strong hand. Strike if you want, but it will be illegal and we will bankrupt you afterwards - not something Unite will want to hear.
BA are entirely in control and realistically have three options. First, they can allow the strike to go ahead, which will almost certainly crumble after a few days and impose the remainder of their wish list when everyone comes back to work. Expect lockouts and general unpleasantness with the unedifying prospect of BA giving 90 days notice of termination of all cabin crew contracts.
Second, allow an "illegal" strike to go ahead and subsequently go to town on Unite/BASSA and it's membership. The courts would no doubt take a dim view of the same law being broken a second time and would doubtless give BA, if not carte blanche, an awful lot of freedom to manoeuvre.
The third option is that a deal is actually done. It's probably the outside bet but there's always the chance and given the above, probably Unite's preferred option. If a deal is done, expect the ongoing appeal against the second part of the "imposition" case to disappear. Also, expect much of BA's wish list to be granted, along with a no-strike deal.
I would be surprised if Unite allow any solution to go to a member's vote. If there is any sniff of a pay cut (which would seem to be the only way Unite can meet BA's needs), the answer will be no and given that Unite's only recourse would be a further strike ballot, of which they can't be assured of sufficient support (which is why we're in this situation now), they can't take the chance.
Finally, I would not want to walk out on strike if I was not 100% certain it was legal. As an individual, I would be taking a huge risk with my future. Namely that I would certainly lose my job and would not be an attractive prospect for any future employer.
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Brilliant summary Human Factor
I would be surprised if Unite allow any solution to go to a member's vote.
If they reach a settlement they will present their membership with a fait accompli 'that's the best we could do for you'
In the past the membership have chosen to say 'thanks a lot, BASSA' instead of 'how about a vote of no confidence in the committee'
CC89 was set up after one of these negotiating debacles
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HF
None of your scenarios actually solves BA's problem, which is the existing Cabin Crew are too inflexible, and come at twice the cost of their competitors.
Remember in the High Court it was stated BA LHR Worldwide operating cost is £60 per hour, and Eurofleet £58 per hour.
Contrast that with the following: Emirates £27, Virgin £20 - £27, BA Gatwick £37, BMI £33, Easyjet £20.
The only way to reach the above cost levels will be by issuing a 90 day notice under SOSR. This will give you short-term pain, but will provide a long-term cost-base which is comparable to competitors.
None of your scenarios actually solves BA's problem, which is the existing Cabin Crew are too inflexible, and come at twice the cost of their competitors.
Remember in the High Court it was stated BA LHR Worldwide operating cost is £60 per hour, and Eurofleet £58 per hour.
Contrast that with the following: Emirates £27, Virgin £20 - £27, BA Gatwick £37, BMI £33, Easyjet £20.
The only way to reach the above cost levels will be by issuing a 90 day notice under SOSR. This will give you short-term pain, but will provide a long-term cost-base which is comparable to competitors.
Couldonlyaffordafiver
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HF
None of your scenarios actually solves BA's problem, which is the existing Cabin Crew are too inflexible, and come at twice the cost of their competitors.
Remember in the High Court it was stated BA LHR Worldwide operating cost is £60 per hour, and Eurofleet £58 per hour.
Contrast that with the following: Emirates £27, Virgin £20 - £27, BA Gatwick £37, BMI £33, Easyjet £20.
The only way to reach the above cost levels will be by issuing a 90 day notice under SOSR. This will give you short-term pain, but will provide a long-term cost-base which is comparable to competitors.
None of your scenarios actually solves BA's problem, which is the existing Cabin Crew are too inflexible, and come at twice the cost of their competitors.
Remember in the High Court it was stated BA LHR Worldwide operating cost is £60 per hour, and Eurofleet £58 per hour.
Contrast that with the following: Emirates £27, Virgin £20 - £27, BA Gatwick £37, BMI £33, Easyjet £20.
The only way to reach the above cost levels will be by issuing a 90 day notice under SOSR. This will give you short-term pain, but will provide a long-term cost-base which is comparable to competitors.
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Human Factor
HF,
Regarding your point about the strike being declared illegal...
I believe that all Unite have to be able to show (in court) is that they took reasonable steps to stop 'illegal' votes.
Members were told (IIRC) to only vote if they expected to be able to participate in any industrial action from 1st March onwards.
While nothing is certain in court, this would probably be deemed by a court to be 'reasonable steps'.
Regarding your point about the strike being declared illegal...
I believe that all Unite have to be able to show (in court) is that they took reasonable steps to stop 'illegal' votes.
Members were told (IIRC) to only vote if they expected to be able to participate in any industrial action from 1st March onwards.
While nothing is certain in court, this would probably be deemed by a court to be 'reasonable steps'.
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..furthermore, and this needs to be understood. BA's forward booking are shaky at best. Any 'agreement' has to contain an assurance that future threats of IA are REMOTE, ie a methodology of creating stability has to be created so that WE can move forward and further build/develop the BA brand in the face of the most difficult trading times ever. I Expect Mr Walsh to deliver - I expect BASSA to be faceless after this is over.
For those that link the Aer Lingus situation with Mr Walsh and assume that it was his stewardshipo that has precipitated a further 670 job losses, you're wrong. Read the facts about the Shamrock and you will realise the truth.
nurj
For those that link the Aer Lingus situation with Mr Walsh and assume that it was his stewardshipo that has precipitated a further 670 job losses, you're wrong. Read the facts about the Shamrock and you will realise the truth.
nurj
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HF,
Regarding your point about the strike being declared illegal...
I believe that all Unite have to be able to show (in court) is that they took reasonable steps to stop 'illegal' votes.
Members were told (IIRC) to only vote if they expected to be able to participate in any industrial action from 1st March onwards.
While nothing is certain in court, this would probably be deemed by a court to be 'reasonable steps'.
Regarding your point about the strike being declared illegal...
I believe that all Unite have to be able to show (in court) is that they took reasonable steps to stop 'illegal' votes.
Members were told (IIRC) to only vote if they expected to be able to participate in any industrial action from 1st March onwards.
While nothing is certain in court, this would probably be deemed by a court to be 'reasonable steps'.
).Of the three options I suggested, taking BASSA back to court is only one of the options. If the strike is poorly supported and collapses after a couple of days, there will be no need to take legal steps. However, the threat remains and if it causes fewer cabin crew to support the strike, it will have done it's job. On the other hand, if the strike has strong support, BA still have the option and it will be up to their lawyers to advise whether or not it is a viable strategy. IMHO, a strike will collapse early so it would be unnecessary.
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Lets postulate the following:
Now move on please.
Thank you.
... and for the new joiners among us, this thread is about BA cabin crew and their terms and conditions.
Not about BA pilots, gate agents, check-in staff, Gate Gourmets, Waterside Warriors, ground engineers, pensioners, passengers and what not.
All very worthy in their own right, but NOT the subject of this thread.
- Those who volunteered to break a CC strike / keep BA aloft during a CC strike, received without knowing about it in advance, some form of financial compensation for their time if they came in on their rostered days off. If they were taken off a flight to do the training, they lost allowances for that trip and were out of pocket.
- Some people here think that is wrong
- Other people here think that is right
Now move on please.
Thank you.
... and for the new joiners among us, this thread is about BA cabin crew and their terms and conditions.
Not about BA pilots, gate agents, check-in staff, Gate Gourmets, Waterside Warriors, ground engineers, pensioners, passengers and what not.
All very worthy in their own right, but NOT the subject of this thread.
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..also, for those rookies on this thread, please do no waste time thread creeping. ie pilot bashing inter alia. The mods have done a great job on here to keep posts on track. Most of this kind of cr@p has been aired already so just don't bother. Dare I say it - read the facts on both sides - think rationally - then post on topic.
nurj
..sorry flaps', I see you moderated quicker than I can type.
nurj
..sorry flaps', I see you moderated quicker than I can type.
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BASSA has failed to negotiate.
BA waited, and then imposed the new crew complements.
The crew costs are way too high. Is there any way other than a wholesale change of the crew using SOSR to achieve the cost levels of Emirates, Virgin, BMI etc?
BA waited, and then imposed the new crew complements.
The crew costs are way too high. Is there any way other than a wholesale change of the crew using SOSR to achieve the cost levels of Emirates, Virgin, BMI etc?
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From Reuters
Its seems it is not only British Aiways Cabin Crew who are detached from the reality of the recession. Once again most other groups have already compromised.
Regards
DUBLIN, March 9 (Reuters) - Operating losses at Aer Lingus quadrupled in 2009 according to an unaudited trading update issued after the Irish airline postponed publishing full results in a standoff with staff over cost-cutting measures.
The company's board will meet later on Tuesday to adjust provisions for cost-cutting measures after cabin crew opposed a plan to reduce its annual operating costs by 97 million euros ($133 million) by shedding up to a fifth of staff.
The proposed plan to stop it burning through its cash reserves had been accepted by unions representing pilots, middle management, maintenance staff and by some ground staff and cabin crew.
The company's board will meet later on Tuesday to adjust provisions for cost-cutting measures after cabin crew opposed a plan to reduce its annual operating costs by 97 million euros ($133 million) by shedding up to a fifth of staff.
The proposed plan to stop it burning through its cash reserves had been accepted by unions representing pilots, middle management, maintenance staff and by some ground staff and cabin crew.
Regards
Last edited by binsleepen; 10th Mar 2010 at 10:53. Reason: Hint from PM about BA Not British
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Quote
"Remember in the High Court it was stated BA LHR Worldwide operating cost is £60 per hour, and Eurofleet £58 per hour.
Contrast that with the following: Emirates £27, Virgin £20 - £27, BA Gatwick £37, BMI £33, Easyjet £20"
If these numbers are correct, and I don't recall anyone saying they are not, we will have to see big change on the first line.
I think an early post mentioned a 37% reduction for CC T&C's, that would still leave them way ahead of market rate.
Looks to me like CC unions had too much time and too many chances to make a better deal than 37%, CC unions are now in a poor position to get what they told their members they could secure.
CC are about to be fast tracked to a place much nearer market rate than they thought possible one year ago.
My previous link/post about EI, was not about its management, infact I am surprised it remains today as it is, think it now has a base in LGW, it sells some very cheap tickets, Ireland is having a tought time and looks like not much good news for them in the near future, I wish all the EI staff well (leaving & remaining). My point of link/posting was to show the state of the Airlines at the moment, many good airline staff finding out just how good life was in a nice job at a good airline.
Getting back to 37%, did I read about a pay cut of 3.5% !!!! the gapp is too big, suggest CC unions remove the nose pinch and pop into to Costa Coffee anytime soon ???
"Remember in the High Court it was stated BA LHR Worldwide operating cost is £60 per hour, and Eurofleet £58 per hour.
Contrast that with the following: Emirates £27, Virgin £20 - £27, BA Gatwick £37, BMI £33, Easyjet £20"
If these numbers are correct, and I don't recall anyone saying they are not, we will have to see big change on the first line.
I think an early post mentioned a 37% reduction for CC T&C's, that would still leave them way ahead of market rate.
Looks to me like CC unions had too much time and too many chances to make a better deal than 37%, CC unions are now in a poor position to get what they told their members they could secure.
CC are about to be fast tracked to a place much nearer market rate than they thought possible one year ago.
My previous link/post about EI, was not about its management, infact I am surprised it remains today as it is, think it now has a base in LGW, it sells some very cheap tickets, Ireland is having a tought time and looks like not much good news for them in the near future, I wish all the EI staff well (leaving & remaining). My point of link/posting was to show the state of the Airlines at the moment, many good airline staff finding out just how good life was in a nice job at a good airline.
Getting back to 37%, did I read about a pay cut of 3.5% !!!! the gapp is too big, suggest CC unions remove the nose pinch and pop into to Costa Coffee anytime soon ???
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Binsleepin,
Its seems it is not only British Cabin Crew who are detached from the reality of the recession.
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Quote
"Remember in the High Court it was stated BA LHR Worldwide operating cost is £60 per hour, and Eurofleet £58 per hour.
Contrast that with the following: Emirates £27, Virgin £20 - £27, BA Gatwick £37, BMI £33, Easyjet £20"
mmmm, last week the gatwick figure that was being bandied about was £30. that's almost a 25% rise in a week - nice work if you can get it!
"Remember in the High Court it was stated BA LHR Worldwide operating cost is £60 per hour, and Eurofleet £58 per hour.
Contrast that with the following: Emirates £27, Virgin £20 - £27, BA Gatwick £37, BMI £33, Easyjet £20"
mmmm, last week the gatwick figure that was being bandied about was £30. that's almost a 25% rise in a week - nice work if you can get it!
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Paddy Miguel
Indeed. And both are legacy carriers in what is certainly the most competitive aviation market in the world - the UK & Ireland. It's vicious here, which is why they have bigger problems than (say) LH or AF.
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Good point Paddy, State Owned = bloated, inefficient, abused and short-term 'managed' to garner the populist vote. You only have to look at New Labour's efforts to recognise the flaws in 'State' ownership.
For too long, post-King, BA has been steered by short termists, namely Ayling and Eddington. Thank goodness we have Mr Walsh. I believe he has the vision (as well being scrotally blessed, (alledgedly)) to align BA for the longer term, and however painful it maybe right now, at least he is attempting to follow a plan which might secure a decent future. For 'pete's' sake CC realise this, and think not what can BA do for me but what can I do for BA. Sadly you are going to be forced to take a battering to your T&C's without your input. Thank BASSA and Malone's ghastly stewardship for the privilege, it's all you will have left.
GF
For too long, post-King, BA has been steered by short termists, namely Ayling and Eddington. Thank goodness we have Mr Walsh. I believe he has the vision (as well being scrotally blessed, (alledgedly)) to align BA for the longer term, and however painful it maybe right now, at least he is attempting to follow a plan which might secure a decent future. For 'pete's' sake CC realise this, and think not what can BA do for me but what can I do for BA. Sadly you are going to be forced to take a battering to your T&C's without your input. Thank BASSA and Malone's ghastly stewardship for the privilege, it's all you will have left.
GF
Last edited by IYCSWICSWICW; 10th Mar 2010 at 10:39.
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Mr Wonker, it will be more like BASSA flexing muscle, but can't, due to terminal atrophy brought about by sublime incompetence. While you're on Wonky, please can you give us your vision for the way forward? Reasonably and coherently? Please?
GF
PS, Wonker, Rime is a white or milky and opaque granular deposit of ice formed by the rapid freezing of supercooled water drops as they impinge upon an cold exposed object. Rime is denser and harder than hoar frost, but lighter, softer, and less transparent than glaze. Rime might have long 'feathers' and 'tails' of rough ice granules or might even be a fairly compact coating if favorable conditions for rime formation persisted over a longer time.
GF
PS, Wonker, Rime is a white or milky and opaque granular deposit of ice formed by the rapid freezing of supercooled water drops as they impinge upon an cold exposed object. Rime is denser and harder than hoar frost, but lighter, softer, and less transparent than glaze. Rime might have long 'feathers' and 'tails' of rough ice granules or might even be a fairly compact coating if favorable conditions for rime formation persisted over a longer time.
Last edited by IYCSWICSWICW; 10th Mar 2010 at 10:28. Reason: Education of Wonker
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The union had had the chance to negotiate and if were all honest they new this was coming after the leaked “Columbus” document in 2008 which funnily enough came at the same time as the bonus payment.
The problem here is the union has been run in the same way as the cabin service, in that you only are seen as been able to represent based on your seniority. End result is that many of those with the power to negotiate have potentially failed existing and future crew through their own greed.
The new fleet pay is much lower than Thomson, Thomascook and BMI who all operate a mixed fleet and again the greedy few at the top are missing the chance to minimise the pain of the many who are not costing BA the £60 average figure.
I wonder how close the final deal will be in regards to “Project Columbus” that came out prior to the recession?
The problem here is the union has been run in the same way as the cabin service, in that you only are seen as been able to represent based on your seniority. End result is that many of those with the power to negotiate have potentially failed existing and future crew through their own greed.
The new fleet pay is much lower than Thomson, Thomascook and BMI who all operate a mixed fleet and again the greedy few at the top are missing the chance to minimise the pain of the many who are not costing BA the £60 average figure.
I wonder how close the final deal will be in regards to “Project Columbus” that came out prior to the recession?
Last edited by legandawing; 10th Mar 2010 at 10:29.