British Airways - CC Industrial Relations Mk VI
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Surrey
Posts: 471
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'd be trying to organise getting us airborne and they'd be phoning the DOM trying to get off the aircraft.
Can anyone who works in BA shorthaul deny they haven't witnessed this?
Can anyone who works in BA shorthaul deny they haven't witnessed this?
I do, it has not happened on my flights.
Infact, only recently we worked over the legal limits from a certain outstation and all the cabin crew left it between the Captain and myself to decide if we were returning home(Captain of course used discretion).
Our duty day for a there and back was in excess of 16 hrs for a shorthaul flight. There was no contacting the Union and we all returned home safely but weary, and everyone was relieved to get back especially our customers.
No extra payments were demanded except for overtime generated.
I don't want to generalise. This normally happened on only 90% of occasions!
I'm BA cabin crew and the above represent my thoughts and not those of my employer.
Last edited by Tiramisu; 7th Mar 2010 at 18:53. Reason: Forgot to mention customers!
Couldonlyaffordafiver
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: The Twilight Zone near 30W
Posts: 1,934
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Litebulbs,
There are only two UK based shorthaul operators from LHR, BA and BMI. Average expenditure, as opposed to salary, per head (cabin crew) is as follows (in 000's, using 2007 figures):
BMI 13.7
BA 28.7
This doesn't distinguish between shorthaul and longhaul as clearly, BA's operation, especially in LH is significantly bigger than BMI. However, it does include BA's LGW shorthaul op which is significantly lower cost.
By contrast, Virgin are entirely a LH operation whilst Easyjet are entirely shorthaul (although not LHR).
Virgin 14.1
Easyjet 20.5
Make what you will of the figures, which come from HERE.
There are only two UK based shorthaul operators from LHR, BA and BMI. Average expenditure, as opposed to salary, per head (cabin crew) is as follows (in 000's, using 2007 figures):
BMI 13.7
BA 28.7
This doesn't distinguish between shorthaul and longhaul as clearly, BA's operation, especially in LH is significantly bigger than BMI. However, it does include BA's LGW shorthaul op which is significantly lower cost.
By contrast, Virgin are entirely a LH operation whilst Easyjet are entirely shorthaul (although not LHR).
Virgin 14.1
Easyjet 20.5
Make what you will of the figures, which come from HERE.
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Gatwick
Posts: 1,980
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Human Factor
So what is the market rate at LHR for long and short haul?
Statistically speaking, more crew earn the BA rates of pay than any other, so would that not dictate how much UK employers pay crew at LHR and therefore the market rate?
Statistically speaking, more crew earn the BA rates of pay than any other, so would that not dictate how much UK employers pay crew at LHR and therefore the market rate?
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: suffolk
Posts: 170
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
So if VA earn 14000 pounds pa and on average take 600 pounds downroute cash in hand and tax free each month then, using these figures as Market Rate ,and adding on 10 %, then I should be due for a pay rise!
Junior trash
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: UK
Posts: 1,025
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
So what is the market rate at LHR for long and short haul?
Statistically speaking, more crew earn the BA rates of pay than any other, so would that not dictate how much UK employers pay crew at LHR and therefore the market rate?
Statistically speaking, more crew earn the BA rates of pay than any other, so would that not dictate how much UK employers pay crew at LHR and therefore the market rate?
Market rate is by definition the pay BA need to pay to recruit and retain staff of the appropriate calibre. BA is happy with the rates of pay, retention and customer satisfaction at LGW (a not fundamentally different employee catchment area) ergo the LGW rates of pay are market rate.
BA patently doesnt dictate market rate to other airlines, otherwise they'd all be paying BA rates.
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: London
Posts: 379
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Airline personnel costs (UK and Overseas) 2008
The most recent information is here.
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/80/airline...rseas_2008.pdf
The number of BA CC then was 15, 051, now it's a bit below 13,400 (after the 1,003 left last year on voluntary redundancy).
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/80/airline...rseas_2008.pdf
The number of BA CC then was 15, 051, now it's a bit below 13,400 (after the 1,003 left last year on voluntary redundancy).
Join Date: Sep 1998
Location: Europe
Age: 53
Posts: 97
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Statistically speaking, more crew earn the BA rates of pay than any other, so would that not dictate how much UK employers pay crew at LHR and therefore the market rate?
The fact is that at LHR there are two other airlines, one mostly shorthaul the only longhaul. Both pay about half what BA pays.
Junior trash
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: UK
Posts: 1,025
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
So if VA earn 14000 pounds pa and on average take 600 pounds downroute cash in hand and tax free each month then, using these figures as Market Rate ,and adding on 10 %, then I should be due for a pay rise!
B: That amount is included in the £14000 anyway. Its the TOTAL cost.
Couldonlyaffordafiver
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: The Twilight Zone near 30W
Posts: 1,934
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
So what is the market rate at LHR for long and short haul?
As far as the split goes, you'll have to ask BA. However, if they're having to compete with operators whose costs are £13.7k and £14.1k per head and neither of those operators are making money, how do you expect BA to make money when their per capita costs are practically double?
On that basis, the market rate is probably around £14k so if you subscribe to BA's "market rate +10%", they'll be aiming for about £15.5k.
Finally, the market rate is controlled to a certain extent by the salary which workers are prepared to accept. By the looks of it, several thousand cabin crew at LHR are prepared to accept a level around £14k so BA shouldn't have any problem filling cabin crew positions at £15.5k.
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Gatwick
Posts: 1,980
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
In that case there will be no issue if BA drastically reduce their terms and conditions for cabin crew, since they will still be getting paid the market rate. In fact using this argument BA could pay minimum wage and justify it by saying it was still the market rate.
The fact is that at LHR there are two other airlines, one mostly shorthaul the only longhaul. Both pay about half what BA pays.
The fact is that at LHR there are two other airlines, one mostly shorthaul the only longhaul. Both pay about half what BA pays.
Again, do those carriers attract BA employees?
This maybe hard to comprehend, but I left BA for a pay rise and overall better terms and conditions. My employer back then, had to pay a wage to attract, which they did.
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 93
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Tiramisu
Sorry, I obviously hit a bit of a raw nerve. I assume you are normally the SCCM, so probably very onside with regards to getting the passengers from A to B.
It has been my experience that on 90% of occasions, whenever there is a delay,the SCCM has not been so positive in their thinking.
On board our aircraft, it's normally the Capt & SCCM that set the tone.
Your tone is obviously different to most I have experienced when delays happen.
Just wondering, how often do you see CC pointing out that if we are ... late, it attracts an extra payment.
I'm not saying it's right or wrong. I'm just saying it happens
Sorry, I obviously hit a bit of a raw nerve. I assume you are normally the SCCM, so probably very onside with regards to getting the passengers from A to B.
It has been my experience that on 90% of occasions, whenever there is a delay,the SCCM has not been so positive in their thinking.
On board our aircraft, it's normally the Capt & SCCM that set the tone.
Your tone is obviously different to most I have experienced when delays happen.
Just wondering, how often do you see CC pointing out that if we are ... late, it attracts an extra payment.
I'm not saying it's right or wrong. I'm just saying it happens
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: suffolk
Posts: 170
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hotel Mode
Q.1 -had a look on an old VA thread and posters seemed to imply that doing five LH trips a month depending on destination would earn them roughly this sum per month.
Q.2- they also said their net salary per month was if I remember correctly in the region of £870 ,which would in gross terms be somewhere near the £14000 pa region.
Q.1 -had a look on an old VA thread and posters seemed to imply that doing five LH trips a month depending on destination would earn them roughly this sum per month.
Q.2- they also said their net salary per month was if I remember correctly in the region of £870 ,which would in gross terms be somewhere near the £14000 pa region.
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: uk
Posts: 237
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Litebulbs
Do Virgin have problems recuiting CC? The answer is NO!!! Ergo the salary package they offer does if not exceed market rate
£1B pounds profit? Are you anware of the crisis in the financal sector over the last 18 months, the impact that has had on the availability of capital to the wider business market and that until Jan the country has been in recession for the last 18 months? All of the above have significant impact on premium traffic which is where money is made.
If I was still crew and it dawned on me that I was being asked to take a 3.4% wagecut so the the CSD didn't have to send some time behind a trolley and with reduced cablin service little impact on maincrew (CSD's, I must admit the good ones that are committed to the passenger and the wellbeing of the company always did help in service in my experience) it would be a 2 words answer, foxtrot oscar
£1B pounds profit? Are you anware of the crisis in the financal sector over the last 18 months, the impact that has had on the availability of capital to the wider business market and that until Jan the country has been in recession for the last 18 months? All of the above have significant impact on premium traffic which is where money is made.
If I was still crew and it dawned on me that I was being asked to take a 3.4% wagecut so the the CSD didn't have to send some time behind a trolley and with reduced cablin service little impact on maincrew (CSD's, I must admit the good ones that are committed to the passenger and the wellbeing of the company always did help in service in my experience) it would be a 2 words answer, foxtrot oscar
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: LHR
Posts: 741
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
How did BA manage to make almost £1b profit a few years ago?
Couldonlyaffordafiver
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: The Twilight Zone near 30W
Posts: 1,934
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Again, do those carriers attract BA employees?
So tell me again. How can BA compete against carriers with cabin crew headcount costs around 50% less than theirs when those carriers aren't making money either?
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: London
Posts: 379
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
BA profits
BA made a huge profit on its premium traffic, especially trans-Atlantic. This profit more than compensated for excessive cabin crew costs and loss-making European and Australia routes. But this premium traffic collapsed, BA's finances are horrible, so that's why Willie Walsh is going for 2,000 CC cuts and the smaller CC complements.
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Gatwick
Posts: 1,980
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I remember the 80's when the financial world was coming to an end; but it didn't.
I believe that BA announced that premium loads were up 5%, but it was mused that premium travel was a dead duck.