British Airways - CC Industrial Relations Mk VI

[MrBernoulli]

BASSA MODERATOR
Post subject: FROM THE MOD - TALKS UPDATE CLARIFICATION
New postPosted: 05 Mar 2010 21:58

Talks with BA have been adjourned for the weekend and will recommence Monday. A final deadline has been set for 5pm on Tuesday evening.

A final UNITE document was NOT in the end presented to the company today as some of the financial calculations were not completed in time. Work will continue over the weekend in order that a position can be reached on Monday.

Apologies for earlier confusion.

THE MODERATOR

Well done BASSA! So even they don't yet have a clue what their 'savings' supposedly are.

[PC767]

Classic, your post is very patronising, the inference being the majority of cabin crew at BA are thick. The point you were attempting to make was lost because of such a stance.

Caribbean Boy. Thank you for your link.
Tuesday set as deadline for BA strike talks - Home News, UK - The Independent

In particular I respect the first responce to the article from Mon 747. Some of what he states has already occurred. The respect and trust for managment by cabin crew has all but gone, and will take along time to rebuild. Unfortunately the same can be said increasingly for the union reps. After leaks of a 3.4% pay cut the talk down route was 'why should we pay so the CSD can return to their old duties.'

There has never been any balance to this debate on either this nor the bassa forums. Left v right. Most of us reside in the centre. Mon 747 sums up the new problems BA has created by marginalising and dividing staff. Pensions next as well. Who will publicly oppose who on that one, will old wounds be harmed in time.

[Beagle9]

Arguably the CSD is the crew member most affected by the crewing level changes, both on EF and WW, though usually only noticably when things go wrong.

However, (accepting that we don't know the details of the offer and there may be more to it than we know) a quick back-of -fag-packet calculation ,for a middling seniority CSD, (assuming the 3.4% reduction to be permanent and the pay freeze 2 years duration) would be thus:

Plan A; BASSA Plan

"You can have your crew member back, but write BA a cheque for £1500 this year and every year until you retire (assuming 15 years, £22,250).

Plan B: BA Plan:

Carry on working as you have been for the last 5 months and keep your current pay.

Hmmmm. Not may takers for Plan A then.

As an ex union rep himself, WW must be boggle-eyed with disbelief that the cabin crews' union could stitch them up in such a way, just to save face and to keep staff levels (and thus potential union membership) high.

Maybe I'm being unfair and the details of the offer will reveal something that puts a different slant on it, but if the assumptions we've been making are essentially correct, I wish I were still a member of Unite, just so I could put a third "NO" on a ballot paper, this time to the question "Do you accept the deal negociated by Unite with BA in resolution of this dispute?"

[flyingsoldier1993]

Who is actually going to strike?

I have just returned from a trip to the US.
Once we all got to know each other a little and nobody feared being bullied for their honest opinion on this particular trip, this is what emerged:

We had 8 cabin crew members onboard.
2 used to be in the union but had resigned their membership very recently.
2 had voted no to IA and are not going to strike.
Out of those 2, 1 is going to resign her membership if a strike is called.
The remaining 4 had voted for IA but only 2 of them are actually going to strike because the other 2 only voted yes to IA to pressure the company.
That left 2 out of 8 cabin crew who are saying that they are going to strike.

Out of the 8 all but 2 had lost faith in their union representation.
The resounding opinion between us was that we don't trust the company's intention, but we also lost all trust in BASSA's intentions, their professionalism and their ability to negotiate appropriately. And none of us was going to risk loosing our job or travel concessions to keep a csd from working as part of the service or to keep people on the old contract on the gravy train.

And may I add, from what I have gathered on previous flights, the amount of cabin crew who will actually take part in any IA seems to be less than half at best.

Should IA really come to happen, I am certain UNITE is in for a very very unpleasant surprise.

[draglift]

PC767 You wrote

The respect and trust for managment by cabin crew has all but gone,

I agree and this is a real problem.

The rest of the airline has taken pay cuts, had staff reductions or agreed to work more hours. BA cabin crew have not been asked to take a pay cut or work more hours. You have just been asked to work a bit harder when you are at work. This impacts the CSD more than anyone else. This does not seem to have been a problem for LGW cabin crew who work with fewer cabin crew and for less money. LHR cabin crew are actually being let off very lightly compared to the hits taken by some departments in the airline.

I know in one BA department they had a staff member long term sick. The other members took turns at coming in on a day off to cover the shift, unpaid. Imagine asking a cabin crew member to come in and work unpaid!

Yet LHR cabin crew still clearly feel hard done by. The rest of the airline consider that cabin crew are pandered to and given special treatment.

So why do cabin crew lack trust and respect for management? Has BA reneged on deals? Has it lied to you? Has it cut your pay? No. But BA is going through its worst ever two years and is doing its best to ensure that it survives so its employees, cabin crew included, have a job in the future.

Now BASSA has undeniably lied to you on numerous occasions. These lies are regurgitated in the galleys whipping you up into a frenzy. You seem to regard BASSA as your employer and BA as your enemy. BASSA is undoubtably ante BA management and influences you to become the same way.

It is a joke that BASSA is discussing ways to save money with BA when its deliberate antics have already cost BA hundreds of millions in lost bookings.

I recall that a while ago Stonewall the Gay organisation voted BA the best employer for gay people in Britain. BA is a pretty good employer for straight people too! It's a shame the cabin crew feel so hard done by. If they dealt with facts rather than emotions and gossip they might realise how good their present deals are.

I appreciate that the fatigue inherent in the job, especially long haul, can colour one's perceptions of reality and turn trivial items into major ones.

Let's hope it is all sorted soon.

[HiFlyer14]

PC767 I don't think anyone on this thread has inferred that "cabin crew are thick". The only line being offered is that BASSA/Unite have misled and misrepresented the crew.

As a community though what we are guilty of is complacency. We have become complacent to reality, preferring to believe "BA is indestructible" "BASSA knows best" "We are untouchable" etc. BASSA have fed this belief, and many people fail to even read the emails or letters from BA. Hence we are where we are now.

As you say, most of us are middle of the road. It doesn't have to be a choice - between BA or BASSA, but many people think it is. If our company say they need to start a New Fleet, what's wrong with saying "Ok, and in return we would like guarantees that our jobs/futures are safe"? That is reasonable, BA would see that as reasonable and we could move forward. Unite on the other hand refuse to discuss, walkout of meetings, and we get the stalemate situation that we are in now.

Thankfully the tide is slowly turning. WW read an email from someone who had voted yes, but then seen the court case verdict proving that BASSA didn't negotiate and now regrets it. Flyingsoldier's account of crew attitudes is very accurate and I am coming across similiar statistics on my flights.

I hope that if it achieves nothing else, the Professional Cabin Crew Council has shown that it is ok to agree with BA. BA are NOT out to get us, they are simply trying to run a business. We are part of that business, and the sooner we all work together to strengthen this business, the better.

I am BA cabin crew and this is my own viewpoint and not that of BA.

[sidtheesexist]

Firstly, I cannot believe that this whole sorry production hasn't reached it's final act...........the uncertainty is doing everyone's head in. Lets bring it on and reach a conclusion, one way or the other, and try and move on together. IMHO the end play will see the demise of the old, militant, head in the sand BASSA - maybe not, but either way, for the sake of everyone's sanity and for the viability of the company in the immediate short term, this must reach a lasting resolution very soon!!!

I think Classic's interpretation of the ballot/intention to actually strike situation is absolutely spot on and the less deluded/blinkered CC are fully aware that this is the real state of play. I see no suggestion in the post that he thinks CC per se are 'thick'. The annecdotal evidence (admittedly, one small snapshot) supplied by flyingsoldier1993 supports this scenario.

PC767 (?) mentions the fact that many CC have lost all respect and trust for/in BA management.

Well here's some breaking news for you. The vast majority of ALL BA employees have lost all respect and trust for/in BASSA/CC wrt to this farce of a dispute which is jeopardising ALL (not just yours!!!!) our jobs.

[spin_doctor]

Doom tomorrow

Please could all the pro-BASSA people stop with the tedious "they'll be coming for you next, it's the pension they're after blah blah blah..."

One of the benefits of having a proper union which understands what their members want of them is that most reps in BA sorted out this cost saving stuff months ago, leaving them plenty of time to concentrate on the important business, like pensions, Iberia merger etc.

BASSA choose to ignore all of these issues and instead spend a year talking about whether or not the CSD should work a trolley.

My union is heavily involved in current pensions discussions. Is BASSA?

[Litebulbs]

Most reps were not asked to make the savings that the BASSA reps were.

[Classic]

PC767

I'd be interested to know which of my assertions you disagree with, as I stand by everything I say.
It was never my intention to infer that cabin crew are 'thick', so I'd also appreciate your explaining that inference.

[Juan Tugoh]

Originally Posted by Litebulbs

Most reps were not asked to make the savings that the BASSA reps were.

And your point is?

[Litebulbs]

level playing fields?

[Newyorker001]

Litebulbs

usually I find most of your post interesting and well informed, but the last one is way of the mark. CC are being asked to make very small changes in comparison to other departments.I agree that as headline figures its not the same, then again I dont know many departments with a head count of approx 14000.

Every department within Ba has been asked to make significant headcount and other savings. That is why a vast majority of BA staff do not back or entertain the way that BASSA are behaving. On this last point I do think ther has been a change from the way people think and more staff having now actually seeing what lies BASSa come out with, blame them rather than CC. Although personally, if you tick yes to strike and believe that its due to the reasons that BASSA have told you and you have not gone out and read all the facts you deserve everything coming.

Bassa have also managed to totally ignore and avoid any form of constructive negotiation for the past 12 months. Everyone was set a deadline and as such BASSA as usual thought, well that wont apply to us. Unfourtuantly for BAASA we now have a CEO who has the balls to take on BAASA and deal with facts and figures. In the past Im sure Ba would have caved in and we would be back to all crew back. Thankfully those days have now gone. BA has slowly been dragged, sometimes kicking and screaming rightfully where it belongs into the 21st century.

Yes there are still problems, as Im sure everyone could still come on here and say. This could change and that could change, but overall BA are a good company to work for and things are changing.

Most crew I speak to are roughly in line with what has been pointed out by previous posts. Having now managed to see through the BASA spin and crap, are making informed decisions about what is best for them and not for BASSA and Unite.(a bit to late though)

Other departments yes have negotiated pretty well, as such they have made the cost savings required by the company to survive. WW made it quite clear to all departments that he was willing to look at any proposal and if the numbers stacked up he would sign it of. Here is BASSAs main problem and the key word is negotiated, not stick your head in the sand and stick two fingers up at the company, thinking that the rules dont apply to you. A few years ago they may not have but now they do. BASSA have gambled and lost.

[Mabbs9]

Level playing field?

Litebulbs, per head of CC the actual saving required is smaller than that of the pilot workforce. I think they managed to negotiate quite successfully within the generous timescale that was specified at the start. It simply doesn't excuse such hopeless progress to say the savings required were so much larger.

edited to add, it's probable, however, that when the cost of the strike threat is included into the IFCE required saving, then the balance may then be different.

[dave747436]

Litebulbs

Litebulbs said

Most reps were not asked to make the savings that the BASSA reps were.

This is a good point, and BASSA have been pushing the apparent unfairness of this very hard. Everybody hates to be treated unfairly.

However, it is a fact that there was an offer from BA, on the table, at the end of June last year (10 months ago!) that had: No seperate Newfleet, No Paycut, and saved the required amount.

I can't, off the top of my head, think of another area of BA that could make such enormous savings so painlessly.

As an aside, I might not always agree with you, but your posts are always relevant & full of insight from another point of view - so Litebulbs, please keep posting!

[Litebulbs]

NewYorker and Mabbs

Two fair posts. I have answers (albeit probably bad ones), but they will probably get pulled because they go outside of the forum rules of this being a thread for cabin crew matters.

So again two fair posts, which I have no direct answer for.

[nurjio]

.and therein lies the genius of BASSA. Economies of truths has enabled it's leadership to hold a grip over many a member for years. However, on a daily basis now, I detect quite a shift in perception by quite a few. That said, IMHO, the long-haul die-hards have been brain-washed beyond help. As Alex Ferguson once famously said, 'it's squeeky bum time',....The Tuesday deadline, I believe is nonsense. BA already know their response to Unite's fag-packet offer. So, since this thread is about BA/CC industrial relations, 'it' is about to be finally tested. Good luck to all those hard-working, responsibly informed CC, you have done well to seek the truth - it's out there. To all others, good luck with your actions. I only hope that you can hand-on-heart say - 'I acted with ALL of the facts taken into account'.

Nurj

[spin_doctor]

Level playing field

Sorry, couldn't let that stand without challenge. BASSA's idea of a level playing field is to offer part of a well thought out plan delivered by a separate group of employees whose terms and conditions are nothing like their own.

I could easily provide a list of half a dozen items, off the top of my head, where cabin crew refused to negotiate changes (oh go on then, just one: fixed links at LHR). All these items might, in themselves, be quite small but the net effect is to make them, as crew, very inflexible and hence even more expensive than their inflated salaries suggest.

If WW had come to all employees saying he wanted XX % from all departments there would have been understandable anger from the vast majority of the company who have already changed many of their terms and conditions.

The only reason that cabin crew have been asked for more is that they have historically given far, far less.

[Litebulbs]

Originally Posted by spin_doctor

The only reason that cabin crew have been asked for more is that they have historically given far, far less.

Can you quantify that statement, in comparison to other departments? I can only speak for my old department, where their was no headcount reduction that I am aware of, and their was no proposal for a two tier pay scale.

[plodding along]

Litebulbs.....
you really need to see the cc agreements for yourself. I would be happy to email you the eurofleet agreement if you pm me.
It is basically a huge set of rules designed to minimise the amount of flying done and maximise payments.

What other workgroup has rules such as these?....

Can't start on an early after days off.

Need to finish by 21:30 on your last day.

Can't do more than two sectors if you start before 6am.

Must have minimum 2 hour 40 turnround every time they land at LHR.(reducable to 2h 15 if a paymant is made.)

Must have 15 hours off at LHR after a longish day.

Can insist on 18 hours off after every 12:30 day even though the days are artifically long in the first place due to the above break rules.

Must have two local nights off in longhaul even after a day trip hence BA can't efficiently use a 777 on routes like Moscow.

Won't do fixed links at LHR.

Still paid for work an hour after chocks, sometimes an hour and a half!!

etc etc the list goes on.

Longhaul crew are very inflexible in any disruption, remember the snow last year when about 15 longhaul aircraft were flown back empty as the crew need two local nights?

Shorthaul crew only average about 500 hours per year and do many one sector days because it's so hard to be scheduled more.

It's not just the wage bill, it's the working practices. Why should other staff groups take the same hit if they started from a far more efficient position?

I'm not having a go at cc, just saying that over the years BASSA has forced crazy agreements through because the consequences of management saying no are as we see today.

The rest of us are fed up with funding another departments inefficiencies.

The good news for cc is that the target could easily have been met by just tweaking a few rules, with no change to pay.

If you carry a lot of fat it's easier to lose a bit of weight.