British Airways - CC Industrial Relations Mk V
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So you would be looking for a membership of about 1000 for the PCC to start to have an effect then. This would take a conscious choice to think about how you were represented and then actually do something about it and in doing so, you would have a sizeable group who would be able to have a mandate to discuss the direction of its own future.
Another question -
Will PCC membership be selective? What would stop the militants joining and as a group, demand exactly what BASSA are demanding now? Or would there me a manifesto set up (as it appears to be on the website), where you know the position and that position will not change?
Another question -
Will PCC membership be selective? What would stop the militants joining and as a group, demand exactly what BASSA are demanding now? Or would there me a manifesto set up (as it appears to be on the website), where you know the position and that position will not change?
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Boondocker etc
I have no link to PCCC, just a general morbid interest in the way a part of BA's cabin crew community appears headed towards an unwinnable dispute.
I can hazard a guess at PCC's approach from what I have read to date, both about its modus operandi, and that of BASSA. This is certainly how I would approach things. I suspect PCC will look to gain recognition by BA. Immediately after, or even as part of such a discussion, PCC will ask for access to BA's internal financials and will sign the requisite NDA that BASSA declined to do some time ago.
Having analysed BA's financials (in reality having asked an accountancy firm to do so on their behalf), they will then be in a position to advise members on what it is practical to request in any negotiations on T&Cs, make recommendations as to the negotiating position to adopt, as well as ensuring they negotiate with BA from a position of information equality.
BASSA's lack of awareness with respect to BA's detailed financial position is clear to anyone with a reasonable level of financial training. BASSA's financial assumptions, both with regard to aviation generally and BA specifically, are well outside the consensus range right now. This failure to appreciate the economic environment within which negotiations with BA are taking place is a key reason why BASSA is failing to gain any kind of traction with the financial community (and possibly explains disagreement with other colleagues in BA too, but that is just my speculation). You may not see investors as being important but, unfortunately, investors and their advisors represent an important stakeholder group, just as do employees, customers, and suppliers.
So, to summarise what I would do if I was leading the PCC:
1. Seek recognition
2. Seek access to BA's internal financials
3. Formulate a negotiating position based on the analysis of 2 above
I suggest that some of the questions currently being asked of PCC, ie "what would you do about X?" are impossible to answer other than speculatively unless and until PCC is able to achieve point 2 above at the very least. Nobody can answer definitively without knowing the financial basis on which BA would view any particular proposal. Again, a key reason why BASSA is failing to make progress with its proposals with BA is that it is ignorant of BA's detailed financial analysis of crew operating costs. And that goes right back to its decision not to accept access to them in return for an NDA. My view is that you would be better off asking BASSA to explain that decision of theirs, rather than posing hypothetical questions to PCC at the moment. The fact that BASSA does not have access to BA's interpretation of all relevant financial data is probably the key reason why they find themselves in such a weak negotiating position. Getting "what if" answers from PCC is not going to improve the current weak bargaining position that cabin crew find themselves in.
I can hazard a guess at PCC's approach from what I have read to date, both about its modus operandi, and that of BASSA. This is certainly how I would approach things. I suspect PCC will look to gain recognition by BA. Immediately after, or even as part of such a discussion, PCC will ask for access to BA's internal financials and will sign the requisite NDA that BASSA declined to do some time ago.
Having analysed BA's financials (in reality having asked an accountancy firm to do so on their behalf), they will then be in a position to advise members on what it is practical to request in any negotiations on T&Cs, make recommendations as to the negotiating position to adopt, as well as ensuring they negotiate with BA from a position of information equality.
BASSA's lack of awareness with respect to BA's detailed financial position is clear to anyone with a reasonable level of financial training. BASSA's financial assumptions, both with regard to aviation generally and BA specifically, are well outside the consensus range right now. This failure to appreciate the economic environment within which negotiations with BA are taking place is a key reason why BASSA is failing to gain any kind of traction with the financial community (and possibly explains disagreement with other colleagues in BA too, but that is just my speculation). You may not see investors as being important but, unfortunately, investors and their advisors represent an important stakeholder group, just as do employees, customers, and suppliers.
So, to summarise what I would do if I was leading the PCC:
1. Seek recognition
2. Seek access to BA's internal financials
3. Formulate a negotiating position based on the analysis of 2 above
I suggest that some of the questions currently being asked of PCC, ie "what would you do about X?" are impossible to answer other than speculatively unless and until PCC is able to achieve point 2 above at the very least. Nobody can answer definitively without knowing the financial basis on which BA would view any particular proposal. Again, a key reason why BASSA is failing to make progress with its proposals with BA is that it is ignorant of BA's detailed financial analysis of crew operating costs. And that goes right back to its decision not to accept access to them in return for an NDA. My view is that you would be better off asking BASSA to explain that decision of theirs, rather than posing hypothetical questions to PCC at the moment. The fact that BASSA does not have access to BA's interpretation of all relevant financial data is probably the key reason why they find themselves in such a weak negotiating position. Getting "what if" answers from PCC is not going to improve the current weak bargaining position that cabin crew find themselves in.
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As an outsider here, can I firstly comment this PCC initiative. However I believe you need to present yourselves a bit more coherently on your website. You will loose much of your target audience I fear with the shear amount of info presented in each section of your website.
You show where you are coming from reasonably well, but not where you see yourselves going. I strongly recommend describing, at the very least, the primary goals of your Council.
Best of luck.
You show where you are coming from reasonably well, but not where you see yourselves going. I strongly recommend describing, at the very least, the primary goals of your Council.
Best of luck.
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JayPee
My view is that you would be better off asking BASSA to explain that decision of theirs
So, perhaps BASSA were not confident in their own ability to not disclose – and let’s face it on a sliding scale leaking BA’s accounts would be a biggie...!
....and whilst we are all giving advice to the PCCC, albeit well meaning and good natured I cannot resist offering my own....
As BASSA appear to be making the very worst of decisions at every opportunity the phrase “never interrupt your opponent when he’s making a mistake” comes to mind.
Perhaps the PCCC has to do little more than exist at this stage?
Last edited by Snas; 1st Feb 2010 at 13:52. Reason: added a bit...
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I fully support the concept that the enlightened people who are trying to put together the PCCC initative, borne as it was in part through the meaningful exchange of information on tis forum.
I would suggest caution as to what it can possibly achieve in the current dispute however. I think that this is way too far down the road for any group to influence the outcome, and certainly not a group that yet has to achieve recognition.
Where I can see the PCCC emerging is in the aftermath when BASSA and CC89 and Unite are tearing themselves apart reflecting where it all went wrong. To BASSA, of course, it will be BA/BALPA/Unite/Amicus/TRM's/The City/The Daily Mail and never their own tactics. At that point there may well be an opportunity for a new grouping such as the PCCC to gather support from the many disillusioned Unite members of both colours and to then approach the company for recognition.
I urge caution, not to undermine the PCCC but merely so as people don't expect too much too soon, thus extinguishing an ember that needs carefully feeeding to fully develop.
We are now approaching the beginning of the end of this chess game, and there will/can be only one winner - you can tell which way it's going by the increasingly rabbid rantings emanating on a daily basis from Malone.
I would suggest caution as to what it can possibly achieve in the current dispute however. I think that this is way too far down the road for any group to influence the outcome, and certainly not a group that yet has to achieve recognition.
Where I can see the PCCC emerging is in the aftermath when BASSA and CC89 and Unite are tearing themselves apart reflecting where it all went wrong. To BASSA, of course, it will be BA/BALPA/Unite/Amicus/TRM's/The City/The Daily Mail and never their own tactics. At that point there may well be an opportunity for a new grouping such as the PCCC to gather support from the many disillusioned Unite members of both colours and to then approach the company for recognition.
I urge caution, not to undermine the PCCC but merely so as people don't expect too much too soon, thus extinguishing an ember that needs carefully feeeding to fully develop.
We are now approaching the beginning of the end of this chess game, and there will/can be only one winner - you can tell which way it's going by the increasingly rabbid rantings emanating on a daily basis from Malone.
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ITV News request
Hello All,
I am a journalist for ITV News and am currently working on both the result of the re-ballot as well as the latest financial results released on Friday.
I posted on this forum in December asking for the perspective of BA workers on the ballot. It was very useful to understand some of the issues involved in the dispute, particularly some of the more technical aspects involved.
I'd be really grateful to hear from BA cabin crew who voted in the recent ballot and get your views on Bassa/BA management.
[email protected]
Many thanks,
Chris
I am a journalist for ITV News and am currently working on both the result of the re-ballot as well as the latest financial results released on Friday.
I posted on this forum in December asking for the perspective of BA workers on the ballot. It was very useful to understand some of the issues involved in the dispute, particularly some of the more technical aspects involved.
I'd be really grateful to hear from BA cabin crew who voted in the recent ballot and get your views on Bassa/BA management.
[email protected]
Many thanks,
Chris
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Would anybody like to venture a guess on the size of this so called militant group?
My guess:
100 genuine militants
250 brainwashed flunkies
3000 believe / trust Bassa and don't actually read BA's info.
what's your guess?
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I really don't know, but the ballot result will be a huge indicator. The length of strike and permanent loss of staff travel will, well should, focus every members mind on the cost implications of what they are about to embark on today, regardless of what a strike will do to BA in the future.
Mr Walsh has made it quite clear what the management team will do, if the vote is a yes.
Mr Walsh has made it quite clear what the management team will do, if the vote is a yes.
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length of strike
recieved this today from amicus/unite
Your time to choose...
How long do you think any industrial action should last for, bearing in mind it is the opinion of Amicus Cabin Crew that a short strike will have no effect?
Submissions will only be accepted if ALL fields are completed. Each entry will be checked against our database and each member will only be allowed one vote.
Select ONE option only
1-3 Days 4-6 Days 7-9 Days 10-12 Days 12+ Days
As i left 2 years ago then maybe they will check that but as i am still on their e-mail database i presume the vote would be accepted.
Your time to choose...
How long do you think any industrial action should last for, bearing in mind it is the opinion of Amicus Cabin Crew that a short strike will have no effect?
Submissions will only be accepted if ALL fields are completed. Each entry will be checked against our database and each member will only be allowed one vote.
Select ONE option only 1-3 Days 4-6 Days 7-9 Days 10-12 Days 12+ Days
As i left 2 years ago then maybe they will check that but as i am still on their e-mail database i presume the vote would be accepted.
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The High Court case is listed for tomorrow in Court 23:
Court Hearings - Queen's Bench Division
Court Hearings - Queen's Bench Division
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RV,
Thanks for the kind compliment.
Snas,
I'm guessing the above was written somewhat tongue-in-cheek. I would agree with the sentiment if this was simply a fight between two impersonal entities. Unfortunately, though, inadequacies on the part of BASSA may easily translate into avoidable costs for some of its members.
I have no sympathy for the Union leadership. The kind of emotive attacks made on colleagues elsewhere in BA has probably done more to drum up volunteers than any number of appeals by Willie Walsh would ever have done. If a fraction of the effort put into their negative campaigning had, instead, gone into working with Unite's research department so that they better appreciated their negotiating environment, then they would probably be giving BA a decent game right now.
However, the people who will suffer from BASSA's inadequacies are those members who accept the Union position as presented. Unlike many on here, I do not criticise such an attitude. Members ought to be able to rely on Union advice without undertaking too much research of their own. That, after all, is why they pay fees to belong to the Union. They are, however, the people who will probably suffer most, ie if they strike enthusiastically. They deserve better representation than they have currently.
Thanks for the kind compliment.
Snas,
As BASSA appear to be making the very worst of decisions at every opportunity the phrase “never interrupt your opponent when he’s making a mistake” comes to mind.
Perhaps the PCCC has to do little more than exist at this stage?
Perhaps the PCCC has to do little more than exist at this stage?
I have no sympathy for the Union leadership. The kind of emotive attacks made on colleagues elsewhere in BA has probably done more to drum up volunteers than any number of appeals by Willie Walsh would ever have done. If a fraction of the effort put into their negative campaigning had, instead, gone into working with Unite's research department so that they better appreciated their negotiating environment, then they would probably be giving BA a decent game right now.
However, the people who will suffer from BASSA's inadequacies are those members who accept the Union position as presented. Unlike many on here, I do not criticise such an attitude. Members ought to be able to rely on Union advice without undertaking too much research of their own. That, after all, is why they pay fees to belong to the Union. They are, however, the people who will probably suffer most, ie if they strike enthusiastically. They deserve better representation than they have currently.
I'd be really grateful to hear from BA cabin crew who voted in the recent ballot and get your views on Bassa/BA management.
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Wascrew – I don’t receive e-mails from Unite/BASSA so being a naturally curious chap made my way to their web site to see the rest of the content.
I was surprised by two things, first being the fact that you had pasted the lot. There is no indication of how long this poll lasts, if or where the results will be published or indeed if any weight will be placed on the result.
My second surprise was that the poll is public facing! Anyone can vote, I know they say that they will check the names against their database, but anyone can actually vote. Imagine if the public at large were to become aware of the link, shame there isn’t a zero day’s option eh...
JayPee – tongue only half way in really. I think my point was that the PCCC are not (in my humble) going to effect this particular dispute (the game’s already afoot) but rather be there to pick up the pieces (the disillusioned) and run with it thereafter perhaps, hopefully. ...and that they couldn’t do a better job of exposing BASSA as being poor representatives than BASSA themselves are doing.
Despite my phraseology (game’s a foot, opponent, etc) I am very much aware that this is an issue that is going to be detrimental to real people, a great many of whom are not cabin crew.
It’s always a problem with text only discussions, I often wish there was a font called sarcastic, reverse psychology, irony etc....
I was surprised by two things, first being the fact that you had pasted the lot. There is no indication of how long this poll lasts, if or where the results will be published or indeed if any weight will be placed on the result.
My second surprise was that the poll is public facing! Anyone can vote, I know they say that they will check the names against their database, but anyone can actually vote. Imagine if the public at large were to become aware of the link, shame there isn’t a zero day’s option eh...
JayPee – tongue only half way in really. I think my point was that the PCCC are not (in my humble) going to effect this particular dispute (the game’s already afoot) but rather be there to pick up the pieces (the disillusioned) and run with it thereafter perhaps, hopefully. ...and that they couldn’t do a better job of exposing BASSA as being poor representatives than BASSA themselves are doing.
Despite my phraseology (game’s a foot, opponent, etc) I am very much aware that this is an issue that is going to be detrimental to real people, a great many of whom are not cabin crew.
It’s always a problem with text only discussions, I often wish there was a font called sarcastic, reverse psychology, irony etc....
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You show where you are coming from reasonably well, but not where you see yourselves going. I strongly recommend describing, at the very least, the primary goals of your Council.
I echo the sentiment mentioned earlier that they should link to this thread on their site, rather than setup their own, which will inevitably result in the BASSA hierarchy sending in their minions, deceitfully as ever, to try and hijack them.
I also think that they are waiting to receive sufficient numbers of genuine support from their fellow cabin crew, many of whom are rightfully disillusioned at the sheer detritus put out by the BASSA leadership.
The court case is a watershed, and the ballot result is the next. The gleeful backslapping meeting of the plebs at whatever venue wishes to host them is frankly irrelevant.
I hope any cabin crew member who wishes to at least have a different perspective to the repeated dishonest and threatening vitriol from BASSA emails the PCC and asks any question they wish.
It is my perception that the PCC have the right idea and do not wish to state their aims until they have a consensus from the people that don't wish to "join a union". They offer a chance for CC to become part of an organisation in which they have a free and unfettered voice, and to which they can contribute. I suspect they will not issue a charter until they have actually listened to, and taken on board, the opinions of those interested.
This surely is better than hanging their hopes on a bunch of overpaid old contract dinosaurs and a left wing union which is in the midst of a battle to see who's the best trade unionist - at the great expense of the people who want to be represented by them.
All I see, as an outsider, is Malone, the kitchen fitter and the other selfish BASSA leaders, and Woodley, Simpson and McLuskey fighting their own battles - and none of these people give a
about the people they are supposed to be representing. They only care about themselves.If you are BA cabin crew reading this thread for the first time, please email the PCC and ask them what they are all about - you may find you have an awful lot in common.
If you are a BASSA diehard, be aware that those of us outside the battle, but with a vested interest, can spot you a mile off, and no amount of Cheryl Cole songs and veiled threats to them will be tolerated.
I am ex-BA gold card slf, and support our national carrier and the sensible members of cabin crew - and every other department - that still make it the world's greatest airline. I look forward to flying BA again for the first time in years if you get rid of these leeches.
To survive, the supportive stakeholders in BA need to get rid of the cancer that is BASSA and the spongers that live off it, and work together for everyones benefit.
Vote No. Talk to the PCC. And Stop giving 15 quid a month to these blood suckers.
Regards,
D
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Attention The Mods please
Why do the posts keep going back in time?
Post 3798 posted after post 3797(10:05am) has gone back in time to 02:19 am! This has been happening for some time now.
Apologies for going away from topic.
Post 3798 posted after post 3797(10:05am) has gone back in time to 02:19 am! This has been happening for some time now.
Apologies for going away from topic.
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Conspiracy theories
Desertia,
Perhaps the Malone gang are trying to sabotage PPrune and the PCCC as has been suggested, but sadly I don't think they are that clever!
Look at where they are taking the BA crew community!
Perhaps the Malone gang are trying to sabotage PPrune and the PCCC as has been suggested, but sadly I don't think they are that clever!
Look at where they are taking the BA crew community!
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Perhaps the Malone gang are trying to sabotage PPrune and the PCCC as has been suggested, but sadly I don't think they are that clever!
Look at where they are taking the BA crew community!
Look at where they are taking the BA crew community!
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Yes, I know all of that. Would one of the PCCC supporters like to provide some thoughts on the future once the 'acceptable and decent' monthly travel payment is accepted albeit it an 'imagined' future?
Why don't you ask your UNION that very question? New Fleet will shortly be launched and we're about to lose Bill Francis offer of a fixed Monthly Travel Payment for ever! The members will only have themselves to blame if this offer is retracted and believe me it will be, if UNITE don't act fast and call off the Strike.
I'm BA Cabin Crew and the above represent my views and not those of BA.
Last edited by Tiramisu; 1st Feb 2010 at 17:35. Reason: Edited to add disclaimer and posted at 18:35