British Airways - CC Industrial Relations Mk V
Join Date: Apr 2007
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merry christmas
i have posted messages on here before that werent so polite to crew, so i would just like to wish everyone a very merry christmas and hope that passengers, crew, and management find a way forward in the new year, thank you to all the dedicated crew such as glamgirl who work so hard to provide a good service in these difficult times. merry christmas everyone and god bless
Join Date: Feb 2006
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Merry X-mass to all!
I have take the discussion about what I witnessed offline. No point in debating that here. I am sure the Finnish captain and I will clear this up.
Having had two days to (rather unsuccessfully) recuperate from my jet lag I decided to at least share one more observation.
I agree with our Nordic Captain that my last 3 post or so where a bit more confrontational (and dare I say: positional) than those before. That may have been partly to do with jet lag but also with the phenomenon that I started to look at the crew through a different set of eyes due to recent events. Admittedly a less positive set.
Far be it from me to call myself the voice of reason (in fact, some of my friends would die laughing if they heard that!) but I do believe that I am normally a more unbiased observer than most. If this manages to affect me, how would it affect other pax?
Well, I asked that too and forget to report back on that. Short haul pax I spoke to were all business men, some of them downgraded (sorry, could not resist) and they had a sort of defeatist attitude. "Ah well, I have given up being angry at BA. My company will simply book me on another airline.". No real anger, no understanding, no long term effect either, since their business depends on others.
Long haul was a different matter. About half the pax I spoke to did not even know about a strike... (how??). Those who did universally blamed the crew for being indifferent to the state of the economy and most found them greedy and vindictive. Mind you: observation here, not my opinion.
All of them would fly BA again after a possible strike but would be more careful booking in the next couple of months, especially since insurance won't cover the cost anymore. A new strike would really hurt people financially.
One pax explained it to two crew members. His story:
He had booked 4 WT+ return tickets with BA for February, but after November 2nd (I believe that is the date that insurance companies say that a strike is no longer covered). He did not know about any threat of a strike. He also booked a non-refundable safari and several hotels. None of them are covered by insurance anymore since any strike coming is now exempt from coverage.
If BA would go on strike this would cost him (excluding the tickets that would be refunded) around GBP 4000. He told the crew that was about 6% of his annual income. He asked if they found it reasonable to hurt other people this hard. Although they seemed shocked that insurance no longer covers the damage of a new strike for people who booked after November 2nd, the universal reaction was to take this up with WW since it is all his fault. They took no ownership at all. That is what bothered me most.
I am looking forward to reactions from the pro strike community to this story. He probably is not the only one affected.
I think the crew are open to reasoning though. They show every sign of being brainwashed. That is not their fault, it happens. History and the rise of populist political parties teaches us that. It is also something that can be easily (though skillfully) countermanded. Again I urge for a strong voice of reason to stand up within the CC. Most of your colleagues are ill informed and have no clue what is really at stake. BASSA is leading them down a very destructive garden path. There is no acceptable outcome of their strategy...
I have take the discussion about what I witnessed offline. No point in debating that here. I am sure the Finnish captain and I will clear this up.
Having had two days to (rather unsuccessfully) recuperate from my jet lag I decided to at least share one more observation.
I agree with our Nordic Captain that my last 3 post or so where a bit more confrontational (and dare I say: positional) than those before. That may have been partly to do with jet lag but also with the phenomenon that I started to look at the crew through a different set of eyes due to recent events. Admittedly a less positive set.
Far be it from me to call myself the voice of reason (in fact, some of my friends would die laughing if they heard that!) but I do believe that I am normally a more unbiased observer than most. If this manages to affect me, how would it affect other pax?
Well, I asked that too and forget to report back on that. Short haul pax I spoke to were all business men, some of them downgraded (sorry, could not resist
) and they had a sort of defeatist attitude. "Ah well, I have given up being angry at BA. My company will simply book me on another airline.". No real anger, no understanding, no long term effect either, since their business depends on others.Long haul was a different matter. About half the pax I spoke to did not even know about a strike... (how??). Those who did universally blamed the crew for being indifferent to the state of the economy and most found them greedy and vindictive. Mind you: observation here, not my opinion.
All of them would fly BA again after a possible strike but would be more careful booking in the next couple of months, especially since insurance won't cover the cost anymore. A new strike would really hurt people financially.
One pax explained it to two crew members. His story:
He had booked 4 WT+ return tickets with BA for February, but after November 2nd (I believe that is the date that insurance companies say that a strike is no longer covered). He did not know about any threat of a strike. He also booked a non-refundable safari and several hotels. None of them are covered by insurance anymore since any strike coming is now exempt from coverage.
If BA would go on strike this would cost him (excluding the tickets that would be refunded) around GBP 4000. He told the crew that was about 6% of his annual income. He asked if they found it reasonable to hurt other people this hard. Although they seemed shocked that insurance no longer covers the damage of a new strike for people who booked after November 2nd, the universal reaction was to take this up with WW since it is all his fault. They took no ownership at all. That is what bothered me most.
I am looking forward to reactions from the pro strike community to this story. He probably is not the only one affected.
I think the crew are open to reasoning though. They show every sign of being brainwashed. That is not their fault, it happens. History and the rise of populist political parties teaches us that. It is also something that can be easily (though skillfully) countermanded. Again I urge for a strong voice of reason to stand up within the CC. Most of your colleagues are ill informed and have no clue what is really at stake. BASSA is leading them down a very destructive garden path. There is no acceptable outcome of their strategy...
I'm a retired BA captain. I have also been a union member from the age of fifteen to present and am reluctant to tell other union members how to conduct their business (I was a strike rep at the age of 18) HOWEVER, I do feel that BASSA need a reality assessment.
1. Thanks to a threatened strike which did not occur YOU disrupted the lives of those who pay your salary.
2. London based crew have shouted "Scab!" in public at JFK at other BA cabin crew.
3. My elder son travelled JFK-LHR on BA178 on 24th Dec and has reported that the cabin crew were a pretty grumpy lot.
There's an old saying: "**** or get off the pot!"
Go on strike like honorable people or work properly.
You should be ashamed of yourselves.
1. Thanks to a threatened strike which did not occur YOU disrupted the lives of those who pay your salary.
2. London based crew have shouted "Scab!" in public at JFK at other BA cabin crew.
3. My elder son travelled JFK-LHR on BA178 on 24th Dec and has reported that the cabin crew were a pretty grumpy lot.
There's an old saying: "**** or get off the pot!"
Go on strike like honorable people or work properly.
You should be ashamed of yourselves.
Join Date: Sep 2006
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Peterlondon, thanks for your message.
Basil, I'm as appalled as you are. I know only too well what happened in your point 2. I won't go much into it here, but it has to do with the LCY-JFK route...
All I wish for Christmas is for a solution.
Merry Christmas everyone, and let's have a Happy New Year.
Gg
Basil, I'm as appalled as you are. I know only too well what happened in your point 2. I won't go much into it here, but it has to do with the LCY-JFK route...
All I wish for Christmas is for a solution.
Merry Christmas everyone, and let's have a Happy New Year.
Gg
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Yes, for everyone Merry Christmas, have a lovely day tomorrow, and let's all have a great New Year, where a reasonable solution can be found (even if the militants don't agree - they won't agree to anything really!)
Join Date: Nov 2009
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To those CC supporting a re-ballot for strike action, in the true spirit of Christmas, it's a time for giving.
Time to give back to BA what it has given you, an excellent lifestyle, one that employees in other airlines or industries can only dream of.
This is your opportunity to get BA back to where it was. A great iconic British brand, one that we can all be proud of. Talk to your Unions, tell them to get back to BA and talk till both sides reach a workable solution and agreement. You are in danger of losing the very thing you are trying so hard to protect, your job and everyone else's' at BA.
Happy Christmas to all our customers, all the mods at PPRuNe, and all at BA.
Once again, a big Thank You to PPRuNe for giving us a voice here.
Thank you to all our customers, present past and future(I'm optimistic).
To those customers who are no longer with us, I'm so sorry we've let you down.
I'm BA Cabin Crew and the above represent my personal views and not those of my employer's
Time to give back to BA what it has given you, an excellent lifestyle, one that employees in other airlines or industries can only dream of.
This is your opportunity to get BA back to where it was. A great iconic British brand, one that we can all be proud of. Talk to your Unions, tell them to get back to BA and talk till both sides reach a workable solution and agreement. You are in danger of losing the very thing you are trying so hard to protect, your job and everyone else's' at BA.
Happy Christmas to all our customers, all the mods at PPRuNe, and all at BA.
Once again, a big Thank You to PPRuNe for giving us a voice here.
Thank you to all our customers, present past and future(I'm optimistic).
To those customers who are no longer with us, I'm so sorry we've let you down.
I'm BA Cabin Crew and the above represent my personal views and not those of my employer's
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So 2010 will be upon us soon with a new CEO no doubt
Enjoy your holidays, don't ask for an upgrade.
As to everyone else, have a great New Year, maybe, finally, in 2010 we can have a company without the BASSA millstone around its corporate neck.
Here's hoping.
Join Date: Jan 2008
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Watersidewonker
A more mild post from your end on this Xmas day..... Nice!
All of us understand you fight for what you once negotiated to earn.... But many here feel the world has changed and that cooperation from your end too is needed to ensure your employer continues to survive, not just to your benefit but to the benefit of all employees.
Also, many of the pax express here they no longer feel that the first priority of the cc at BA is the well being and safety of the pax (but rather the cc's own money earning potential), or that BA has the best cc in the business.
Either way, thanks for the mild post and merry Xmas to you all, I hope management as well as staff (including union members and the union managers) will learn in the new year that cooperation gets you further than polarization... A lesson to be learned by all sides I would think
All of us understand you fight for what you once negotiated to earn.... But many here feel the world has changed and that cooperation from your end too is needed to ensure your employer continues to survive, not just to your benefit but to the benefit of all employees.
Also, many of the pax express here they no longer feel that the first priority of the cc at BA is the well being and safety of the pax (but rather the cc's own money earning potential), or that BA has the best cc in the business.
Either way, thanks for the mild post and merry Xmas to you all, I hope management as well as staff (including union members and the union managers) will learn in the new year that cooperation gets you further than polarization... A lesson to be learned by all sides I would think
Last edited by vanHorck; 25th Dec 2009 at 20:13. Reason: typo and addition
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My Xmas message to Watersidewonker....
At least you still have a job, regardless of any 'minor' changes to your t and c's.
I WAS Flyglobespan staff and now have NO job and find myself out of the airline industry after 22 very happy years in.
You are better paid and have better working conditions than any member of crew that I have EVER worked with and yet, in these tough times, are still chewing the fat and wishing disaster upon the rest of your fine company.
The next time you are required to put an X on the form, maybe you should spare a thought for all of those who would be VERY glad to do your job for whatever terms are available ( and may very soon be working with you..There are a lot of us out there, you know )
Be careful of what you wish for.....
.
At least you still have a job, regardless of any 'minor' changes to your t and c's.
I WAS Flyglobespan staff and now have NO job and find myself out of the airline industry after 22 very happy years in.
You are better paid and have better working conditions than any member of crew that I have EVER worked with and yet, in these tough times, are still chewing the fat and wishing disaster upon the rest of your fine company.
The next time you are required to put an X on the form, maybe you should spare a thought for all of those who would be VERY glad to do your job for whatever terms are available ( and may very soon be working with you..There are a lot of us out there, you know )
Be careful of what you wish for.....
.
Watersidewonker,
You and BASSA certainly don't have a monopoly on truth and reason, as amply illustrated by recent events, so your sermon rings particularly hollow. Any chance you can stay in Barbados?
You and BASSA certainly don't have a monopoly on truth and reason, as amply illustrated by recent events, so your sermon rings particularly hollow. Any chance you can stay in Barbados?
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90 days, Wonker, is all it would take. I wonder if BASSA have provoked the employer enough yet?
Plenty of trained crew on the market who would take 'new fleet' conditions from under your nose...
HNY
Plenty of trained crew on the market who would take 'new fleet' conditions from under your nose...
HNY
Go on strike like honorable people or work properly
I am also a ret'd Captain, and was once reported to the cabin crew union for 'coercing' crew to work, all history now from over 30 yrs ago, but my actions were because the cabin crew didn't know their own scheduling rules, and were being led by a hothead, and the aircraft would have been grounded in mid journey at one of the stops.
My point is, if you accept the company's 'shilling' by putting on their uniform and turning up for work, then at least do the job you are being paid for, willingly - which includes being nice to your bread and butter, if you don't want to do that - stay at home. You have a choice.
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Watersidewonker,
Of all days of the year, you had to write what you did. I do find myself wondering if you're looking for fights because you haven't anything better to do with your time.
For pretty much everyone, I wish you happiness and solutions.
Gg
Mods, I'm sorry....
Of all days of the year, you had to write what you did. I do find myself wondering if you're looking for fights because you haven't anything better to do with your time.
For pretty much everyone, I wish you happiness and solutions.
Gg
Mods, I'm sorry....
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I'm sure there are people who would be pleased to take the offer on "New Fleet" but does that mean that current crew are not supposed to hold on to what they've got? Are we just supposed to be quiet and be happy about that we've got a job and just let the company change our T&C's? That's a pretty ridicilous argument to use. There will always be people who would happily take any job regardless under any T&C's. If that's the game, let it be.
About New Fleet and doing mixed flying, I will not be willing to do both longhaul and shorthaul trips because I was recruited to do longhaul and that's the fleet I'm staying on.
Merry Christmas.
By the way, to those of you who say that LGW is working fine, why are most of the crew at LGW on Opps&Choice List to LHR EF and LHR WW?
About New Fleet and doing mixed flying, I will not be willing to do both longhaul and shorthaul trips because I was recruited to do longhaul and that's the fleet I'm staying on.
Merry Christmas.
By the way, to those of you who say that LGW is working fine, why are most of the crew at LGW on Opps&Choice List to LHR EF and LHR WW?
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"Horrid People"
I am one of the "horrid people" who, until now, would not have considered flying with any other carrier than BA.
The fact that one of your number was so crass and stupid as to commit that epithet to print on this blog merely reinforces the decision I took earlier in the month not to spend another penny of my firm's £250,000 travel budget with BA.
Did this benighted, dunderheaded, idiot really think that the remark would go unnoticed? Does (s)he not know that this is a public forum, that can be read by anyone, anywhere on the face of the planet, with access to a computer?
If that is what you think of the people whose fares directly keep you and your colleagues in food and shelter many former BA travellers will vote with their credit cards and fly with other companies.
There are air carriers out there that practise professionalism and politeness. British Airways cabin staff clearly do not if the horrid peopleremark is what you think of your passengers.
The fool who uttered the "horrid people" remark may just be the person who will directly cause yet more losses to BA and more involuntary redundancies.
The rest of you can just hope and pray that (s)he will be indentified, disciplined and fired before that happens.
This time it's not au revoir British Airways, but a definite adieu from this horrid person.
The fact that one of your number was so crass and stupid as to commit that epithet to print on this blog merely reinforces the decision I took earlier in the month not to spend another penny of my firm's £250,000 travel budget with BA.
Did this benighted, dunderheaded, idiot really think that the remark would go unnoticed? Does (s)he not know that this is a public forum, that can be read by anyone, anywhere on the face of the planet, with access to a computer?
If that is what you think of the people whose fares directly keep you and your colleagues in food and shelter many former BA travellers will vote with their credit cards and fly with other companies.
There are air carriers out there that practise professionalism and politeness. British Airways cabin staff clearly do not if the horrid peopleremark is what you think of your passengers.
The fool who uttered the "horrid people" remark may just be the person who will directly cause yet more losses to BA and more involuntary redundancies.
The rest of you can just hope and pray that (s)he will be indentified, disciplined and fired before that happens.
This time it's not au revoir British Airways, but a definite adieu from this horrid person.
Last edited by Albert Salmon; 25th Dec 2009 at 22:45.
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Miss M.
Your dept has to make the savings, loss of 1000 staff has headed in the right direction leaving your t+c's pretty much unchanged.
Current crew are pretty much hanging on to what they have got AFAIK.
Another strike ballot will try everyone's patience beyond belief.
You & your colleagues will find it difficult to progress from here if you all dig your heels in.
Happy New Year, though.
Albert Salmon: sorry to see you go, I don't know which routes you fly but I hope you decide to return someday.
Your dept has to make the savings, loss of 1000 staff has headed in the right direction leaving your t+c's pretty much unchanged.
Current crew are pretty much hanging on to what they have got AFAIK.
Another strike ballot will try everyone's patience beyond belief.
You & your colleagues will find it difficult to progress from here if you all dig your heels in.
Happy New Year, though.
Albert Salmon: sorry to see you go, I don't know which routes you fly but I hope you decide to return someday.
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MissM, I agree with what you are saying, BUT the company has said that New Fleet will be seperate from WW and EF... That Project Columbus document leaked late last year actually emphasised that it will be voluntary and will only grow on growth and attrition, we would keep our current T&Cs. Before you start shouting how can you believe that, well all I have to say to that is how can you speculate otherwise or disbelieve. It was the union who suggested ''starvation of work.'' I agree that it is a worry and something to look out for BUT could it not be accepted on the agreement with the union that the fixed monthly payment, ratio of equal distribution of low and high earning routes could be binding/contractual. If they could accept it based on this I would accept New Fleet. Plus, my attitude is that I would rather a job, albeit on New Fleet than no job at all - which could happen if all the union want to do is do absolutely anything including strike to keep everything we have.
I personally agree New Fleet is not ideal, the company recognised that and was planning on making some agjustments to our t&cs and new contracts for future crew and future promotions
If you agree that change is needed, which many Yes voters claim, then what kind of things could be changed... Because until now people say that but then whenever any proposal is made many people go NO NO NO.... BASSAs proposal didn't save enough so would need to be changed/added to....
Killigrews post should be a real eye opener, Killigrew I would just like to say I am really sorry for the situation you and many ex-colleagues of yours are now in and thanks very much for your poignant post!!
I personally agree New Fleet is not ideal, the company recognised that and was planning on making some agjustments to our t&cs and new contracts for future crew and future promotions
If you agree that change is needed, which many Yes voters claim, then what kind of things could be changed... Because until now people say that but then whenever any proposal is made many people go NO NO NO.... BASSAs proposal didn't save enough so would need to be changed/added to....
Killigrews post should be a real eye opener, Killigrew I would just like to say I am really sorry for the situation you and many ex-colleagues of yours are now in and thanks very much for your poignant post!!
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Watersidewonker's "advice"
Watersidewonker has taken it upon him (or her) self to advise cabin crew "not let this regime (BA) get the upper hand in 2010".
If Watersidewonker is so clearly at loggerheads with BA that (s)he feels constrained to write such drivel, it is high time that (s)he resigned.
(S)he would do well to remember that BA is your employer - not some sort of enemy in a class war, but no: he or she seems intent to saw off the branch on which all of you sit.
In the meantime, my company will not fly with BA until this stupidly organised labour dispute is settled. Believe it or not, many of your passengers read this discussion, and we are NOT impressed by Watersidewonker's Marxist tripe.
As they say on television programmes, "Other airlines are available".
If Watersidewonker is so clearly at loggerheads with BA that (s)he feels constrained to write such drivel, it is high time that (s)he resigned.
(S)he would do well to remember that BA is your employer - not some sort of enemy in a class war, but no: he or she seems intent to saw off the branch on which all of you sit.
In the meantime, my company will not fly with BA until this stupidly organised labour dispute is settled. Believe it or not, many of your passengers read this discussion, and we are NOT impressed by Watersidewonker's Marxist tripe.
As they say on television programmes, "Other airlines are available".
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It is a great shame many passengers and companies are not booking BA until this dispute is settled! BASSA and the militants as part of them should be worried as to what they had done - instead they are intent on balloting us again. BASSA may say ''but it's Willie's fault he should lift the imposition'' - OK but where are they going to get the crew to do that and what other things will you agree to make the savings?? THINK about what this strike means, and what ''Willie and the union talking'' means and actually be rational about it, afterall we are in a worldwide recession!
Merry Christmas everyone, and thank you PPRune!
Merry Christmas everyone, and thank you PPRune!