British Airways - CC Industrial Relations Mk V
No solution possible?
Hiflyer, and others who would like a solution.
Some posts ago, Henky came up with "Getting to Yes", a book from the Harvard Negotiating Project, which shows folk how to negotiate. It is very good, with some great tips.
However, to "negotiate" requires two groups who want to reach a solution.
As their own behaviour shows that Bassa do not want a solution, the "getting to yes" technique does not work. That's when you need to get out the original works by Karrass. (Google his org). All of us with 30+ years of negotiating experience have our copy of the "Karrass tapes" hidden away somewhere.
Karras and others do actually understand what Power is. If your opponent does not want to negotiate to reach a solution, I'm afraid that you have to set out to destroy them. The early Karrass courses taught this. Other negotiators with experience of cold war Russia/USA negotiations also understood this.
You should expect BA to give Bassa perhaps one more chance of a negotiated settlement. Failing that, it will have to be a fight to the end, by all available means. Either BA will win by destroying Bassa, or Bassa will "win" by destroyng BA..............and thus making themselves unemployable.
No other solution is possible.
Unfortunately, Unite, which knows all this stuff, does not seem to have the power over Bassa to make them understand. Plus, Unite's own internal politics make being "strict" with Bassa just about impossible. (Years ago, Jack Jones of the T & G gave too much power to local units compared to the centre).
Only the lawyers will get rich!
Some posts ago, Henky came up with "Getting to Yes", a book from the Harvard Negotiating Project, which shows folk how to negotiate. It is very good, with some great tips.
However, to "negotiate" requires two groups who want to reach a solution.
As their own behaviour shows that Bassa do not want a solution, the "getting to yes" technique does not work. That's when you need to get out the original works by Karrass. (Google his org). All of us with 30+ years of negotiating experience have our copy of the "Karrass tapes" hidden away somewhere.
Karras and others do actually understand what Power is. If your opponent does not want to negotiate to reach a solution, I'm afraid that you have to set out to destroy them. The early Karrass courses taught this. Other negotiators with experience of cold war Russia/USA negotiations also understood this.
You should expect BA to give Bassa perhaps one more chance of a negotiated settlement. Failing that, it will have to be a fight to the end, by all available means. Either BA will win by destroying Bassa, or Bassa will "win" by destroyng BA..............and thus making themselves unemployable.
No other solution is possible.
Unfortunately, Unite, which knows all this stuff, does not seem to have the power over Bassa to make them understand. Plus, Unite's own internal politics make being "strict" with Bassa just about impossible. (Years ago, Jack Jones of the T & G gave too much power to local units compared to the centre).
Only the lawyers will get rich!
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My CC friend was on a BA flight last week, 53 passengers were staff alone with family, I bet there was a real scrabble for the best seats.
I don't know any crew that travel anything below Club personally, most travel 1st when the children are not with them but when they hit the age of 12 the whole family gets to go 1st.
This should be classed as a benefit in kind and taxed, just like any other employee receiving a perk! This virtually free travel to me is a huge perk.
I don't know any crew that travel anything below Club personally, most travel 1st when the children are not with them but when they hit the age of 12 the whole family gets to go 1st.
This should be classed as a benefit in kind and taxed, just like any other employee receiving a perk! This virtually free travel to me is a huge perk.
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As SLF I have been loyal to BA and remain so. The reasons are that the current timetable from Boston is beter than Virgin, the planes and crew are beter than AA (no seat back screens on AA) and that my wife is currently a Gold Executive Club member. Also we want to fly direct to LHR (lots of other options if we don't mind changing planes).
Down sides at the moment are it takes a lot of flights to remain gold and its hard to use the air miles at a time we want. They are small points really but the big one at the moment is still the threat of IA. Mrs J is flying back to the UK in January for work so that should be OK but we are flying back for a holiday in March so will that be ok??
In the last few years the majority of CC have been excellent, a few have only average but at no time have any been rude.
If BA don't survive then it will be a sad day for aviation but life will go on and we will have to fly with AA or Virgin.
Down sides at the moment are it takes a lot of flights to remain gold and its hard to use the air miles at a time we want. They are small points really but the big one at the moment is still the threat of IA. Mrs J is flying back to the UK in January for work so that should be OK but we are flying back for a holiday in March so will that be ok??
In the last few years the majority of CC have been excellent, a few have only average but at no time have any been rude.
If BA don't survive then it will be a sad day for aviation but life will go on and we will have to fly with AA or Virgin.
Mrs J is flying back to the UK in January for work so that should be OK but we are flying back for a holiday in March so will that be ok??
BA would, of course, like to have your flight as scheduled but the intransigence of BASSA and Unite is just not going to allow an answer to that. Sorry. Expect more shenanigans from the unions, would be my best bet.
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Ott
Little round of applause for Ottergirl, somebody normal, with knowledge and understanding! Just as a thoughtI return from work via BUD on the 2nd -PM, - having promised never again. It will be interesting to see having had a less than savoury trip out, what the trip back will be like! Should I comment later? 
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I wasn't asking a real question. I have been following this for a while now and have commented before. I asked as this this the biggest thing putting off people booking with BA ,why should I book if Bassa still want to strike.
Mrs J is in HR and has been involved in large scale redundancies in the UK, Germany and the US over the last 10 years so has a very good understanding of employment law and unions. Her opinion on this is that for BA to survive cuts and reductions must be made to compete in todays world. Not yesterdays worlds or LALA land but the real world we live in today!!!!
Mrs J is in HR and has been involved in large scale redundancies in the UK, Germany and the US over the last 10 years so has a very good understanding of employment law and unions. Her opinion on this is that for BA to survive cuts and reductions must be made to compete in todays world. Not yesterdays worlds or LALA land but the real world we live in today!!!!
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Thoughts on CC
Having read over three hundred posts some of which have appalled me, some given me hope, and some a wry smile, I feel it may not be a total waste of time to add my thoughts in what is my first and probably last post, as I have no intention of joining a shouting match.
First my background. I joined BOAC as a pilot in the late sixties, and worked for over thirty years until compulsory retirement at the age of fifty five. I was not ready to stop flying at that time, and was able to extend my career for a few years with a far eastern airline.
I therefore have seen quite a bit of BA’s operation, and also a little of what goes on elsewhere.
It seems to me that there is one main problem, and one running sore that cannot but be detrimental to the crew’s performance, and consequent quality of service they provide. First, and most importantly, the obvious antipathy shown by the cabin crew towards their employer, and secondly the surly, sometimes venomous attitude shown by a number of cabin crew towards the flight crew.
Not long before I joined, Captains stayed in separate hotels to the rest of the flight crew. Ridiculous you may say, and probably so, but it was undeniably a time when the commander was respected by one and all.
On my early trips a few years later, the Capt was still that slightly remote figure. I think it must have been at least ten years before I felt I could address him by his first name, and only then when off the aircraft! During those years, I honestly don’t remember any festering undercurrents between the crew. We all worked hard, and enjoyed our time off down route. Apart from a minor punch up in the Dickens Bar between a rather inebriated flight engineer and a steward, I don’t recall any serious confrontations!
But since that time, there has been a steady erosion of the Captain’s position in particular, but also of the flight crew in general. This has been partly due to changes in society, but also to deliberate actions by the employer to level the playing field. Now the Capt is merely the one at the top of the list, and the second on the list may as well be at the bottom. As for respect, I’m sure most will say that the Captain has to earn it, and I agree, but he should not have to start from a position where he is regarded as a “smug b-----d” (if one believes these posts) even before he has met the crew.
I have tried to find a rationale for this awful breakdown between the flight crew and cabin crew, and wonder if trying to be too matey with everyone doesn’t backfire in the long run. Certainly, in my more recent company, the flight crew and cabin crew were more at arms length. Interaction was correct, polite, friendly, and business like, and the operation was first class. After my time with BA, I missed the extra informality, and once or twice regretted the “arms length” thing! But it worked.
In my time in BA, especially on the 747, the operation was sometimes terrific. Usually thanks to a great CSD (of which there are many, and from reading his posts I’m certain I can include Tiramisu) being able to motivate his team by his/her example, his enthusiasm, and his general demeanour. Great fun. But sometimes it was pretty awful. Cabin crew simply going through the motions before the next slip. Sometimes the CSD would not even appear on the flight deck. Sure, we had some obstinate, rude individuals on the flight deck, they probably still exist, but let’s be realistic, they are few and far between. So why the frequent hostility?
I’m certain that the fresh faced stewards and stewardesses coming out of Cranebank hold no particular animosity towards the pilots, but once they start flying it seems as though a number become brainwashed into regarding them as the enemy. Having said that, perhaps it does start at Cranebank, by the occasional remark from an embittered trainer. I don’t know. But I do know that I sometimes used to think why me, what have I done!
If I may say so, cabin crew are also imbued, whether deliberately in the training school, or gradually over time, with a misguided sense of their importance. This sounds harsh I know, and I find myself hesitating to put it on paper. Frankly it sounds rather rude. It’s really not meant to be. I think it may have started with Kegworth and the realisation that cabin crew can sometimes have a huge impact on a successful outcome. Of course they can, no question. But now they sometimes think they can interfere in the decision making.
I will give just one example. Many years ago I had a flight out of LHR. During the pre-boarding checks, a stewardess discovered a note scrawled on a toilet mirror saying “you’re all going to die” Security was called, we trooped off, and the flight was delayed whilst a security team did a long and thorough search. Eventually when they announced the all clear, I expected a departure within the hour, and instructed the redcap accordingly. I had reckoned without the cabin crew. They were not happy. Despite my explanations that the search had been more than adequate and that I was completely satisfied, they wanted a change of aircraft. I think we’ve all seen when crew get into small groups and work themselves into a state of anxiety. Well it was like that. It was only the threat of disciplinary action if they refused to operate that got us away after a further lengthy delay, and you can imagine the atmosphere. The smug b-----d’s got his way again?
And why the hostility towards BA? They are the employers who decide how they want to run things, and we the people who carry it out for a fair remuneration. Of course, there must be protection from exploitation, unfair treatment etc, and this is why we have unions. But should unions be able to manipulate their members to the extent that they issue the most ludicrously disproportionate instruction to strike for twelve days over Christmas. Particularly at a time when BA is in a parlous financial situation. This is more than giving the employer a bloody nose. It’s pushing him towards liquidation. How would that benefit their members? I don’t pretend to understand the machinations of left wing activists, but surely even they wouldn’t want that. Or would they? Perhaps a strike or a failed company is like a campaign medal to them.
And over what? Basically minor changes involving some extra work. Maybe these changes will work, and maybe not, but it’s not up to the employee to decide. That’s management’s job. Maybe, faced with compulsory redundancies, pay cuts etc, a strike vote could be justified. But of course, this is not the case. It’s simply an imposition to work a bit harder, with no reduction in salary for current crew. To be honest in the current situation, I’m surprised BA are not looking for more. Perhaps that’s what people are afraid of, but it makes no sense to vote for a strike now, just in case they decide to introduce some unknown conditions in the future.
And are BA really such bad employers? I don’t believe they are. Of course we had spats from time to time, but in my thirty three odd years I found them to be an extremely caring and by and large, fair employer. There were countless occasions when I saw them pull out all the stops in times of personal difficulty, and I was indeed proud and thankful that this was the way they behaved. Not all airlines are like this I assure you.
So in this second ballot, would it be too much to hope that the militants who seem to have their own spiteful agenda, could be outvoted by those who vote for what they themselves want, despite the propaganda emanating from their union.
For the sake of British Airways, for all staff, both in this country and overseas, and for the travelling public, I really hope so.
As others have said, British Airways flights can be the best in the business. The crews are often fabulous, and their pride in doing a first class job for their customers is evident. Passengers get off with a feeling of wellbeing. Everyone’s happy. Then they take the return flight and it’s like they were on a different airline. Why not have anonymous standards inspectors travelling in the cabin to try to improve consistency. I’ll volunteer!
Happy Christmas.
Jaffy.
First my background. I joined BOAC as a pilot in the late sixties, and worked for over thirty years until compulsory retirement at the age of fifty five. I was not ready to stop flying at that time, and was able to extend my career for a few years with a far eastern airline.
I therefore have seen quite a bit of BA’s operation, and also a little of what goes on elsewhere.
It seems to me that there is one main problem, and one running sore that cannot but be detrimental to the crew’s performance, and consequent quality of service they provide. First, and most importantly, the obvious antipathy shown by the cabin crew towards their employer, and secondly the surly, sometimes venomous attitude shown by a number of cabin crew towards the flight crew.
Not long before I joined, Captains stayed in separate hotels to the rest of the flight crew. Ridiculous you may say, and probably so, but it was undeniably a time when the commander was respected by one and all.
On my early trips a few years later, the Capt was still that slightly remote figure. I think it must have been at least ten years before I felt I could address him by his first name, and only then when off the aircraft! During those years, I honestly don’t remember any festering undercurrents between the crew. We all worked hard, and enjoyed our time off down route. Apart from a minor punch up in the Dickens Bar between a rather inebriated flight engineer and a steward, I don’t recall any serious confrontations!
But since that time, there has been a steady erosion of the Captain’s position in particular, but also of the flight crew in general. This has been partly due to changes in society, but also to deliberate actions by the employer to level the playing field. Now the Capt is merely the one at the top of the list, and the second on the list may as well be at the bottom. As for respect, I’m sure most will say that the Captain has to earn it, and I agree, but he should not have to start from a position where he is regarded as a “smug b-----d” (if one believes these posts) even before he has met the crew.
I have tried to find a rationale for this awful breakdown between the flight crew and cabin crew, and wonder if trying to be too matey with everyone doesn’t backfire in the long run. Certainly, in my more recent company, the flight crew and cabin crew were more at arms length. Interaction was correct, polite, friendly, and business like, and the operation was first class. After my time with BA, I missed the extra informality, and once or twice regretted the “arms length” thing! But it worked.
In my time in BA, especially on the 747, the operation was sometimes terrific. Usually thanks to a great CSD (of which there are many, and from reading his posts I’m certain I can include Tiramisu) being able to motivate his team by his/her example, his enthusiasm, and his general demeanour. Great fun. But sometimes it was pretty awful. Cabin crew simply going through the motions before the next slip. Sometimes the CSD would not even appear on the flight deck. Sure, we had some obstinate, rude individuals on the flight deck, they probably still exist, but let’s be realistic, they are few and far between. So why the frequent hostility?
I’m certain that the fresh faced stewards and stewardesses coming out of Cranebank hold no particular animosity towards the pilots, but once they start flying it seems as though a number become brainwashed into regarding them as the enemy. Having said that, perhaps it does start at Cranebank, by the occasional remark from an embittered trainer. I don’t know. But I do know that I sometimes used to think why me, what have I done!
If I may say so, cabin crew are also imbued, whether deliberately in the training school, or gradually over time, with a misguided sense of their importance. This sounds harsh I know, and I find myself hesitating to put it on paper. Frankly it sounds rather rude. It’s really not meant to be. I think it may have started with Kegworth and the realisation that cabin crew can sometimes have a huge impact on a successful outcome. Of course they can, no question. But now they sometimes think they can interfere in the decision making.
I will give just one example. Many years ago I had a flight out of LHR. During the pre-boarding checks, a stewardess discovered a note scrawled on a toilet mirror saying “you’re all going to die” Security was called, we trooped off, and the flight was delayed whilst a security team did a long and thorough search. Eventually when they announced the all clear, I expected a departure within the hour, and instructed the redcap accordingly. I had reckoned without the cabin crew. They were not happy. Despite my explanations that the search had been more than adequate and that I was completely satisfied, they wanted a change of aircraft. I think we’ve all seen when crew get into small groups and work themselves into a state of anxiety. Well it was like that. It was only the threat of disciplinary action if they refused to operate that got us away after a further lengthy delay, and you can imagine the atmosphere. The smug b-----d’s got his way again?
And why the hostility towards BA? They are the employers who decide how they want to run things, and we the people who carry it out for a fair remuneration. Of course, there must be protection from exploitation, unfair treatment etc, and this is why we have unions. But should unions be able to manipulate their members to the extent that they issue the most ludicrously disproportionate instruction to strike for twelve days over Christmas. Particularly at a time when BA is in a parlous financial situation. This is more than giving the employer a bloody nose. It’s pushing him towards liquidation. How would that benefit their members? I don’t pretend to understand the machinations of left wing activists, but surely even they wouldn’t want that. Or would they? Perhaps a strike or a failed company is like a campaign medal to them.
And over what? Basically minor changes involving some extra work. Maybe these changes will work, and maybe not, but it’s not up to the employee to decide. That’s management’s job. Maybe, faced with compulsory redundancies, pay cuts etc, a strike vote could be justified. But of course, this is not the case. It’s simply an imposition to work a bit harder, with no reduction in salary for current crew. To be honest in the current situation, I’m surprised BA are not looking for more. Perhaps that’s what people are afraid of, but it makes no sense to vote for a strike now, just in case they decide to introduce some unknown conditions in the future.
And are BA really such bad employers? I don’t believe they are. Of course we had spats from time to time, but in my thirty three odd years I found them to be an extremely caring and by and large, fair employer. There were countless occasions when I saw them pull out all the stops in times of personal difficulty, and I was indeed proud and thankful that this was the way they behaved. Not all airlines are like this I assure you.
So in this second ballot, would it be too much to hope that the militants who seem to have their own spiteful agenda, could be outvoted by those who vote for what they themselves want, despite the propaganda emanating from their union.
For the sake of British Airways, for all staff, both in this country and overseas, and for the travelling public, I really hope so.
As others have said, British Airways flights can be the best in the business. The crews are often fabulous, and their pride in doing a first class job for their customers is evident. Passengers get off with a feeling of wellbeing. Everyone’s happy. Then they take the return flight and it’s like they were on a different airline. Why not have anonymous standards inspectors travelling in the cabin to try to improve consistency. I’ll volunteer!
Happy Christmas.
Jaffy.
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Isn't it fascinating that most of the comments on here are from either pilots, cabin crew down at LGW (with a few exceptions obviously), CrewForum spies or those who really don't know anything about IFCE and our agreements?
To you pilots; how would you feel if BA put forward a proposal which said that they will introduce an equivalent fleet to NewFleet with less basic salary plus a few pounds over market average which would you sooner or later have to transfer to or resign? Because that's exactly what will happen to us! It's sad if you can't or won't realize that obvious facts. Eventually there won't be any flights left for those of us on "mainline" and we'd be put on endless sby blocks. Yes, we might have this wonderful "fixed monthly travel payment" to rely on but for how long?
They have made it clear they don't want this job to be a career. They just want people to do this for a few years and then move on to something else. How do you think it feels for those of us who have been with the company for a long time and done our very best to them? I started flying right after school and have been here for almost 15 years and will do everything I can to hold on to what I have. I'm sure that's what most people want and I can't see anything wrong with that. It's not about being greedy, cheap or unwilling to negotiate. Because once it's gone it will never come back. Like, the 16th crew member which we lost a few years ago. It was a temporary measurement. Where is it? Gone! Do you think we'll get the purser on upper deck back? No! Do you think we'll get the purser on main deck in Club World back? No!
Don't start going on about LGW and how well it works down there. They AGREED to it. Nobody forced them to it as the case here at LHR. Maybe BA threathened to close the base but the vast majority of the crew have been recruited since SingleFleet was introduced. If it had been closed they probably would have been at LHR. I'm sure you do a very good job down there and you should pat yourself on your back for that.
gl
To you pilots; how would you feel if BA put forward a proposal which said that they will introduce an equivalent fleet to NewFleet with less basic salary plus a few pounds over market average which would you sooner or later have to transfer to or resign? Because that's exactly what will happen to us! It's sad if you can't or won't realize that obvious facts. Eventually there won't be any flights left for those of us on "mainline" and we'd be put on endless sby blocks. Yes, we might have this wonderful "fixed monthly travel payment" to rely on but for how long?
They have made it clear they don't want this job to be a career. They just want people to do this for a few years and then move on to something else. How do you think it feels for those of us who have been with the company for a long time and done our very best to them? I started flying right after school and have been here for almost 15 years and will do everything I can to hold on to what I have. I'm sure that's what most people want and I can't see anything wrong with that. It's not about being greedy, cheap or unwilling to negotiate. Because once it's gone it will never come back. Like, the 16th crew member which we lost a few years ago. It was a temporary measurement. Where is it? Gone! Do you think we'll get the purser on upper deck back? No! Do you think we'll get the purser on main deck in Club World back? No!
Don't start going on about LGW and how well it works down there. They AGREED to it. Nobody forced them to it as the case here at LHR. Maybe BA threathened to close the base but the vast majority of the crew have been recruited since SingleFleet was introduced. If it had been closed they probably would have been at LHR. I'm sure you do a very good job down there and you should pat yourself on your back for that.
gl
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Regarding staff travel, how often are staff upgraded to Club or even First?
I assume they enjoy the full service that the rest of us have to pay a four figure sum to enjoy?
Is this behaviour properlay audited and tracked within BA on a commercial basis?
I just thought of this when I read again that "I only get 12K basic a year." from someone.
I assume they enjoy the full service that the rest of us have to pay a four figure sum to enjoy?
Is this behaviour properlay audited and tracked within BA on a commercial basis?
I just thought of this when I read again that "I only get 12K basic a year." from someone.
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Several posters have said that they voted "NO" in the BASSA ballot and either have resigned, or are about to resign from the union. Perhaps it might be worthwhile for those still in membership to hang on and vote in the new ballot. Given the reported wavering among some "YES" voters, a few more "NO" votes next time might just make a difference.
One of the few plausible rationales for the BASSA leadership encouragement to VR people to vote last time was a fear that without them the result might have been too close for their comfort. Will they be more worried this time?
Some of the ideas for compromise and advance that have surfaced here in the last couple of days seem well worth exploring further. Is there anyone out there willing to put their head above the parapet and float them on the BASSA or CrewForum sites? They might just be enough to get discussion going, or if not, get a few more people thinking about the real world.
The effect of any change in any environment should always be evaluated. What appears to be a good idea from one perspective is likely to have disadvantages, perhaps minor, perhaps major, from others.
Reducing CC numbers has an imediate and visible positive impact on costs. It may also have a less easily quantifiable impact on service levels. That should be reviewed, and I would not be surprised to find that the results depend on the route. Perhaps the reduced numbers can work well on long sectors with plenty of time, such as LHR-SIN or LHR NRT, but it is more difficult to provide adequate levels of service on shorter sectors, such as LHR-BOS or LHR-TLV. Or it might be the other way round. Bring on the mystery shopper!
My interest is as fairly frequent SLF (just into EC Silver) and a small-scale shareholder (not many more than needed to get the shareholder discount).
One of the few plausible rationales for the BASSA leadership encouragement to VR people to vote last time was a fear that without them the result might have been too close for their comfort. Will they be more worried this time?
Some of the ideas for compromise and advance that have surfaced here in the last couple of days seem well worth exploring further. Is there anyone out there willing to put their head above the parapet and float them on the BASSA or CrewForum sites? They might just be enough to get discussion going, or if not, get a few more people thinking about the real world.
The effect of any change in any environment should always be evaluated. What appears to be a good idea from one perspective is likely to have disadvantages, perhaps minor, perhaps major, from others.
Reducing CC numbers has an imediate and visible positive impact on costs. It may also have a less easily quantifiable impact on service levels. That should be reviewed, and I would not be surprised to find that the results depend on the route. Perhaps the reduced numbers can work well on long sectors with plenty of time, such as LHR-SIN or LHR NRT, but it is more difficult to provide adequate levels of service on shorter sectors, such as LHR-BOS or LHR-TLV. Or it might be the other way round. Bring on the mystery shopper!
My interest is as fairly frequent SLF (just into EC Silver) and a small-scale shareholder (not many more than needed to get the shareholder discount).
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To you pilots; how would you feel if BA put forward a proposal which said that they will introduce an equivalent fleet to NewFleet with less basic salary plus a few pounds over market average which would you sooner or later have to transfer to or resign? Because that's exactly what will happen to us! It's sad if you can't or won't realize that obvious facts. Eventually there won't be any flights left for those of us on "mainline" and we'd be put on endless sby blocks. Yes, we might have this wonderful "fixed monthly travel payment" to rely on but for how long?
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Posted by stoic on the previous thread:
Listen to the words in the segment 1:15 to 1:25. McCluskey is not a negotiator - he is a militant, left wing activist who takes pride in striking. Do you honestly think BASSA will enter any form of meaningful negotiation?
Being part of a union can be very helpful, but unions are there to help negotiate on behalf of the membership. Striking should be the last resort.
BASSA are conning its members - as CC you deserve better leadership in your union. There is nothing wrong with a strike, but things have to be extremely serious to go that far. In the present climate, you have to be even more careful.
It seems to me from the outside looking in, that there is a huge amount of denial and unwillingness to accept facts by BASSA members.
Until your union - yes it is your union, they work for you not the other way round, start playing ball and behaving sensibly, you as staff are going to suffer, rightly or wrongly, the wrath of your customers - the people who pay your wages and maintain your livelihood.
Whether you drink it or not you need to wake up and smell the coffee, because your union are doing you a dis-service - more-so than WW
May I suggest you read: United Left: Len McCluskey is United Left candidate for General Secretary
Then watch segment 1:15 to 1:25 of this YouTube - SANDOWN PARK 14.12.09 14.00.mpg
Then watch segment 1:15 to 1:25 of this YouTube - SANDOWN PARK 14.12.09 14.00.mpg
Being part of a union can be very helpful, but unions are there to help negotiate on behalf of the membership. Striking should be the last resort.
BASSA are conning its members - as CC you deserve better leadership in your union. There is nothing wrong with a strike, but things have to be extremely serious to go that far. In the present climate, you have to be even more careful.
It seems to me from the outside looking in, that there is a huge amount of denial and unwillingness to accept facts by BASSA members.
Until your union - yes it is your union, they work for you not the other way round, start playing ball and behaving sensibly, you as staff are going to suffer, rightly or wrongly, the wrath of your customers - the people who pay your wages and maintain your livelihood.
Whether you drink it or not you need to wake up and smell the coffee, because your union are doing you a dis-service - more-so than WW
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Quote from MissM
Don't start going on about LGW and how well it works down there. They AGREED to it. Nobody forced them to it as the case here at LHR. Maybe BA threathened to close the base but the vast majority of the crew have been recruited since NewFleet was introduced. If it had been closed they probably would have been at LHR. I'm sure you do a very good job down there and you should pat yourself on your back for that.
MissM, New Fleet doesn't exist. Yet. A lot of crew are still at LGW from the DanAir days. If somebody told you your base would close if you didn't accept what was coming then you would probably accept it too. Not forced but it was Hobson's Choice. The problem now is that as it is working at LGW it's difficult to claim it wouldn't work elsewhere.
Don't start going on about LGW and how well it works down there. They AGREED to it. Nobody forced them to it as the case here at LHR. Maybe BA threathened to close the base but the vast majority of the crew have been recruited since NewFleet was introduced. If it had been closed they probably would have been at LHR. I'm sure you do a very good job down there and you should pat yourself on your back for that.
MissM, New Fleet doesn't exist. Yet. A lot of crew are still at LGW from the DanAir days. If somebody told you your base would close if you didn't accept what was coming then you would probably accept it too. Not forced but it was Hobson's Choice. The problem now is that as it is working at LGW it's difficult to claim it wouldn't work elsewhere.
Because once it's gone it will never come back. Like, the 16th crew member which we lost a few years ago. It was a temporary measurement. Where is it? Gone! Do you think we'll get the purser on upper deck back? No! Do you think we'll get the purser on main deck in Club World back? No!
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Miss M
I have read your interesting post that makes me think what is really causing all this unrest is New Fleet and nothing at all to do with working with less crew or even an imposition.
I was a LHR CSD for many years and a bassa member at one time so know a thing or two about how cabin crew work on both WW and EF having worked on both fleets.
You are correct to fear New Fleet but it could have been avoided if your union had played ball with your employer a few months back and reached an agreement instead of thinking everything would go away if they dragged it out long enough. No use blaming anyone else now.
BA tried it with Mid Fleet in the 1990's in an attempt to get away from the then ancient BOAC and BEA working practices but for some reason abandoned the fleet.
That situation is still here. BA must be the only airline in the world that operates extensive short haul and long haul services with the cabin crew operating only one or the other but not both apart from at LGW.
New Fleet would be very economical for BA so I cannot see it going away.
I have read your interesting post that makes me think what is really causing all this unrest is New Fleet and nothing at all to do with working with less crew or even an imposition.
I was a LHR CSD for many years and a bassa member at one time so know a thing or two about how cabin crew work on both WW and EF having worked on both fleets.
You are correct to fear New Fleet but it could have been avoided if your union had played ball with your employer a few months back and reached an agreement instead of thinking everything would go away if they dragged it out long enough. No use blaming anyone else now.
BA tried it with Mid Fleet in the 1990's in an attempt to get away from the then ancient BOAC and BEA working practices but for some reason abandoned the fleet.
That situation is still here. BA must be the only airline in the world that operates extensive short haul and long haul services with the cabin crew operating only one or the other but not both apart from at LGW.
New Fleet would be very economical for BA so I cannot see it going away.
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BA CC get good allowances - something not disputed here...
Re £12k basic:
Ottergirl:
So, as a pax, from the outside looking in you are saying that if you do not do any flights you get paid £12k. So, do no work = £12k, the top up to your pay depends on the work you do... where do I sign up - I'm free to do nothing on my days off?!!
A slightly simplistic musing I agree, but one that kind of screams out at you and it isn't really a great defence when you use it to counter people who state BA CC are on average much better paid than other CC...
Re £12k basic:
Ottergirl:
Until you fall over and break a leg that is! Then its 12K and like it! Similarly, if BA choose not to work you and leave you at home 'available' then its back to basic. On Annual Leave, basic again. Standby but not used, you guessed it! The point is, the 12K is the only part you can rely on
A slightly simplistic musing I agree, but one that kind of screams out at you and it isn't really a great defence when you use it to counter people who state BA CC are on average much better paid than other CC...
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MissM, New Fleet doesn't exist. Yet. A lot of crew are still at LGW from the DanAir days. If somebody told you your base would close if you didn't accept what was coming then you would probably accept it too. Not forced but it was Hobson's Choice. The problem now is that as it is working at LGW it's difficult to claim it wouldn't work elsewhere.
It might work but it was agreed and the members were consulted. That's the difference. I don't know how many crew down there are from DanAir but I have been under the impression that they are very few. Most of the existing crew, especially on LGW WW, went to LHR when SingleFleet was introduced.
MissM,
I don't necessarily agree with that statement, but had you considered that a dearth of pro-BASSA posters here might just be because they cannot sustain the discussion? There are more than enough here that know plenty "about IFCE and our agreements".
Perhaps you are another, sent under orders from the pro-BASSA community, to start the entire wheel turning again with BASSA untruths, half-truths and similar nonsense? Since the beginning of this series of threads I have noticed a slow and very gradual turning of some opinions, plus noticeable, sudden injects from the BASSA non-believers ..... when they feel that there might not be enough BASSA-bollocks being spouted here. They arrive out of nowhere, against the grain of the thread, and are usually 'new posters', several of which are almost certainly past-posters who have been modded off the thread, lol! But the one constant is the BASSA script - it is so instantly recognisable, the same phrases trotted out in almost a rote-like way.
Are you one of these MIssM? Have you availed yourself of the hundreds of pages of argument already up on these forums? Or are we going to start the cycle all over again?
Isn't it fascinating that most of the comments on here are from either pilots, cabin crew down at LGW (with a few exceptions obviously), CrewForum spies or those who really don't know anything about IFCE and our agreements?
Perhaps you are another, sent under orders from the pro-BASSA community, to start the entire wheel turning again with BASSA untruths, half-truths and similar nonsense? Since the beginning of this series of threads I have noticed a slow and very gradual turning of some opinions, plus noticeable, sudden injects from the BASSA non-believers ..... when they feel that there might not be enough BASSA-bollocks being spouted here. They arrive out of nowhere, against the grain of the thread, and are usually 'new posters', several of which are almost certainly past-posters who have been modded off the thread, lol! But the one constant is the BASSA script - it is so instantly recognisable, the same phrases trotted out in almost a rote-like way.
Are you one of these MIssM? Have you availed yourself of the hundreds of pages of argument already up on these forums? Or are we going to start the cycle all over again?
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MissM said
MissM, back in 2001, when the 16th crew member was removed after 11th September, the B747-400 flew with up to 409 pax.
Since then we have had them reconfigured with lie-flat beds in Club, hi-Club configs on some aircraft and WTP cabins introduced. All of these changes have reduced the 409 pax to a max now of 351 pax, and sometimes as few as 291 pax.
Are you really suggesting that you still need 15 crew (let alone 16) on these flights, when the configurations have reduced by 50+ seats? Time to take a reality pill, methinks.
Like, the 16th crew member which we lost a few years ago. It was a temporary measurement. Where is it?
Since then we have had them reconfigured with lie-flat beds in Club, hi-Club configs on some aircraft and WTP cabins introduced. All of these changes have reduced the 409 pax to a max now of 351 pax, and sometimes as few as 291 pax.
Are you really suggesting that you still need 15 crew (let alone 16) on these flights, when the configurations have reduced by 50+ seats? Time to take a reality pill, methinks.
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I think it's self evident that everyone wants to hold onto what they've got in the way of salaries and T & C's. But how much trouble does your employer have to be in before you're willing to make some sacrifices? You say you'll do "everything I can to hold on to what I have". Does that include helping to drive BA out of business? Wouldn't you agree that that's irrational? Because if that happens then you won't hold onto a thing - you'll lose everything.
With respect, that's not your call to make. You may not be happy about it, but it's a management decision. They decide on crewing levels, not you.