British Airways - CC Industrial Relations Mk V
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As HotelMode said...
It's because of this kind of inflexibility that BA cabin crew now find themselves backed against a wall of their own making.
If it's true that Ms Malone has refused to allow alleviations during the latest disruption, I'd love to have been a fly on the wall when WW found out.
Merry Christmas all.
As HotelMode said...
It's because of this kind of inflexibility that BA cabin crew now find themselves backed against a wall of their own making.
If it's true that Ms Malone has refused to allow alleviations during the latest disruption, I'd love to have been a fly on the wall when WW found out.
Merry Christmas all.
Last edited by overstress; 23rd Dec 2009 at 22:14. Reason: A bit of editing, why else
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If it's true that Ms Malone has refused to allow alleviations during the latest disruption, I'd love to have been a fly on the wall when WW found out.
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Is crew rest in a bunk something that the CAA insist upon or is it an industrial agreement that applies to only BA?
I assume all 747's/777's are manufactured with the rest area fitted as standard so other airlines cabin crew also have long rest periods on long range sectors.
On my last flight HKG-LHR I could hear the cabin crew saying they hoped to get 4 hours in the bunks.
If for some reason the bunks became unusable after take off and there were no empty seats in any class, what would they do?
I assume all 747's/777's are manufactured with the rest area fitted as standard so other airlines cabin crew also have long rest periods on long range sectors.
On my last flight HKG-LHR I could hear the cabin crew saying they hoped to get 4 hours in the bunks.
If for some reason the bunks became unusable after take off and there were no empty seats in any class, what would they do?
Last edited by Jpax; 23rd Dec 2009 at 22:45. Reason: grammar
jpax
1. Boeing offers various configurations of bunks, and FWIW only some of the BA 777's have crew bunks...all the 747's have them.
2. There are two sets of rules to consider - the CAA and BA have an agreed between them a set of rules called "scheme" , and it does mandate the use of horizontal rest or rest seats to increase the maximum Flying Duty Period. Then again BA and the Unions have their own mutually agreed Industrial Agreements....generally once the pilots have reported to work they will work to scheme (the CAA limit), I'll let a Cabin crew poster explain what they do.
3. As for what happens if the bunks/seats become inop. after departure....well I know what I would do
2. There are two sets of rules to consider - the CAA and BA have an agreed between them a set of rules called "scheme" , and it does mandate the use of horizontal rest or rest seats to increase the maximum Flying Duty Period. Then again BA and the Unions have their own mutually agreed Industrial Agreements....generally once the pilots have reported to work they will work to scheme (the CAA limit), I'll let a Cabin crew poster explain what they do.
3. As for what happens if the bunks/seats become inop. after departure....well I know what I would do
Last edited by wiggy; 23rd Dec 2009 at 23:08.
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It is required for flight time limitations on certain trips. Not that often for cabin crew though who have less restrictive hours limitations.
In the case you outline, in all airlines -
a) flight continues if the captain thinks it's safe, prudent, and legal
most airlines
b) that's it
BA
b) Crew call BASSA on landing
c) BASSA complain to BA
d) BA call Captain for an explanation
e) Cabin crew get hosed down with cash
In the case you outline, in all airlines -
a) flight continues if the captain thinks it's safe, prudent, and legal
most airlines
b) that's it
BA
b) Crew call BASSA on landing
c) BASSA complain to BA
d) BA call Captain for an explanation
e) Cabin crew get hosed down with cash
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Sounds a solution to their current fears about new fleet.
It could work and in my opinon would be fairer than the current system.
Big problem though, I do not think enough WW crew would consider working on EF. Some EF (but not all by any means) would like a bit of long haul.
I was a CSD on both fleets and the impression I got from crew on each fleet was; some EF would like a bit of long haul. I never heard a single person on WW say they would like a bit of short haul. If it came to this I doubt if more than a couple of hundred crew would be intersted in it from WW. I met lots of EF crew who were on a waiting list for WW but I never heard a single WW person say they wanted to go to EF, I know a few did but they were mainly people who had transferred from EF and wanted to go back.
The problem for WW crew is they live such vast ditances from LHR and would not want to move closer to LHR. As we all know some live abroad. I once operated a 747 and I was the only person who did not commute from abroad out of the 15 of us. Freguently I have been on flights where half the crew commute from either abroad or the north of the UK.
EF crew generally live close to LHR and I am sure some would like a bit of variety.
It is a good idea especially putting some of the variable paymens into the basic. The current system is so unfair.
If I was still there I would volunteer for it, it sounds good to me.
It could work and in my opinon would be fairer than the current system.
Big problem though, I do not think enough WW crew would consider working on EF. Some EF (but not all by any means) would like a bit of long haul.
I was a CSD on both fleets and the impression I got from crew on each fleet was; some EF would like a bit of long haul. I never heard a single person on WW say they would like a bit of short haul. If it came to this I doubt if more than a couple of hundred crew would be intersted in it from WW. I met lots of EF crew who were on a waiting list for WW but I never heard a single WW person say they wanted to go to EF, I know a few did but they were mainly people who had transferred from EF and wanted to go back.
The problem for WW crew is they live such vast ditances from LHR and would not want to move closer to LHR. As we all know some live abroad. I once operated a 747 and I was the only person who did not commute from abroad out of the 15 of us. Freguently I have been on flights where half the crew commute from either abroad or the north of the UK.
EF crew generally live close to LHR and I am sure some would like a bit of variety.
It is a good idea especially putting some of the variable paymens into the basic. The current system is so unfair.
If I was still there I would volunteer for it, it sounds good to me.
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I am very sadly drawn to the conclusion that it really is time for the BASSA faithful, and British Airways to part company.
Permanently.
I simply think this issue has gone way beyond the scope of the normal too-ing and fro-ing of industrial relations. It is becoming extremely, and intentionally damaging to the future of this company. The level of glee displayed in both the current difficulties, and also the suffering of our customers, is incomprehensible
I fail to see how any company can tolerate the current attitudes of this sizeable proportion of it's in-flight workforce. The futures of the two groups are simply incompatible.
Sadly, I believe BA must grasp the nettle when the next strike approaches, and move to dismissal. I cannot see any other sensible option.
Sorry. Work with BA, or move on to 'better' employment.
Simples.
Permanently.
I simply think this issue has gone way beyond the scope of the normal too-ing and fro-ing of industrial relations. It is becoming extremely, and intentionally damaging to the future of this company. The level of glee displayed in both the current difficulties, and also the suffering of our customers, is incomprehensible
I fail to see how any company can tolerate the current attitudes of this sizeable proportion of it's in-flight workforce. The futures of the two groups are simply incompatible.
Sadly, I believe BA must grasp the nettle when the next strike approaches, and move to dismissal. I cannot see any other sensible option.
Sorry. Work with BA, or move on to 'better' employment.
Simples.
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Some excellent ideas there travelandtrouble!! I like it!
Not sure how the one fleet system would work with 6 (soon to be 5) aircraft types and some people doing SH only/LH only etc.... however maybe they could come up with it.. open lists depending on requirements on manpower on each aircraft types.... I don't know. The upping of current crews basic and putting us on LGW hourly rate is a good idea aswell so that we do not lose money as current crew. With future crew being recruiting at around LGW levels.
Agreements; maybe not fully sheme agreements but certainly different to now. Could still have double nights on SFO/LAX/HKG/SIN/NRT/PVG etc etc.. but with other sacrifices, depending on savings. Us shorthaul crew could do either fixed links, raise the finish time before a day off.
Definately have a merit based promotions/progression culture. The seniority system we have is, I must say quite outdated now - some WW colleagues have not been able to go for Purser for around 12 years now just because they are too ''junior'' (after 12 years
) but many will still be able to take on the role and many would be excellent. It should go on ability rather than length of time (although obviously a certain level of experience is required, but the CAA has that restriction anyway is it a year or two which I think is enough experience DEPENDING ON THE PERSON! However we would have to be careful so that merit does not turn into favouritism!! It would need to be fair.
I still think there should be 3 grades. Maybe have the top grade (Cabin Manager) working as the no.1 on all aircraft types and have some ground management responsibilities working alongside the CTMs on the ground and working as flying managers. Then have PSRs/Cabin Supervisors as no.1s of airbus and supervising cabin class on longhaul as is the case now.
Not sure how the one fleet system would work with 6 (soon to be 5) aircraft types and some people doing SH only/LH only etc.... however maybe they could come up with it.. open lists depending on requirements on manpower on each aircraft types.... I don't know. The upping of current crews basic and putting us on LGW hourly rate is a good idea aswell so that we do not lose money as current crew. With future crew being recruiting at around LGW levels.
Agreements; maybe not fully sheme agreements but certainly different to now. Could still have double nights on SFO/LAX/HKG/SIN/NRT/PVG etc etc.. but with other sacrifices, depending on savings. Us shorthaul crew could do either fixed links, raise the finish time before a day off.
Definately have a merit based promotions/progression culture. The seniority system we have is, I must say quite outdated now - some WW colleagues have not been able to go for Purser for around 12 years now just because they are too ''junior'' (after 12 years
) but many will still be able to take on the role and many would be excellent. It should go on ability rather than length of time (although obviously a certain level of experience is required, but the CAA has that restriction anyway is it a year or two which I think is enough experience DEPENDING ON THE PERSON! However we would have to be careful so that merit does not turn into favouritism!! It would need to be fair.I still think there should be 3 grades. Maybe have the top grade (Cabin Manager) working as the no.1 on all aircraft types and have some ground management responsibilities working alongside the CTMs on the ground and working as flying managers. Then have PSRs/Cabin Supervisors as no.1s of airbus and supervising cabin class on longhaul as is the case now.
Last edited by SlideBustle; 24th Dec 2009 at 03:08.
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I am very sadly drawn to the conclusion that it really is time for the BASSA faithful, and British Airways to part company.
Permanently.
I simply think this issue has gone way beyond the scope of the normal too-ing and fro-ing of industrial relations. It is becoming extremely, and intentionally damaging to the future of this company. The level of glee displayed in both the current difficulties, and also the suffering of our customers, is incomprehensible
I fail to see how any company can tolerate the current attitudes of this sizeable proportion of it's in-flight workforce. The futures of the two groups are simply incompatible.
Sadly, I believe BA must grasp the nettle when the next strike approaches, and move to dismissal. I cannot see any other sensible option.
Sorry. Work with BA, or move on to 'better' employment.
Permanently.
I simply think this issue has gone way beyond the scope of the normal too-ing and fro-ing of industrial relations. It is becoming extremely, and intentionally damaging to the future of this company. The level of glee displayed in both the current difficulties, and also the suffering of our customers, is incomprehensible
I fail to see how any company can tolerate the current attitudes of this sizeable proportion of it's in-flight workforce. The futures of the two groups are simply incompatible.
Sadly, I believe BA must grasp the nettle when the next strike approaches, and move to dismissal. I cannot see any other sensible option.
Sorry. Work with BA, or move on to 'better' employment.
4468,
I agree with you. Both sides seem adamant in their reluctance to budge.
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Hi travelandtrouble,
In principle I agree with you. I've always been up for an hourly rate similar to that of our Flight Crew colleagues and it would work. Putting all variables in pot would also be much better ensuring fair share. The only problem is that there will always be crew doing a Moscow there and back who would feel hard done by when compared to someone who to does a quick Paris.
I guess a way forward would be to reward those on a long day with a premium payment to ensure fairness.
However, majority of our colleagues will give it the thumbs down and of course there is no way that BASSA will agree to it in a million years.
In principle I agree with you. I've always been up for an hourly rate similar to that of our Flight Crew colleagues and it would work. Putting all variables in pot would also be much better ensuring fair share. The only problem is that there will always be crew doing a Moscow there and back who would feel hard done by when compared to someone who to does a quick Paris.
I guess a way forward would be to reward those on a long day with a premium payment to ensure fairness.
However, majority of our colleagues will give it the thumbs down and of course there is no way that BASSA will agree to it in a million years.
Last edited by Tiramisu; 24th Dec 2009 at 05:46. Reason: Missed a word
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Retired, but was a captain - both long and shorthaul.
Unless it's changed, which I doubt, no passenger is ever downgraded to allow positioning crew to sit in a higher class than a downgraded passenger.
IT DOES NOT HAPPEN.
I think Henky started this (if it wasn't you, accept my apologies).
What I suspect happened was he overheard someone who had asked for an upgrade whingeing because he hadn't got it.
In my experience they fall into several categories
Don't you know I'm an MP, euro MP, government minister etc. - they have bought an economy ticket but have charged the tax payer for a J or F ticket.
They are a personal friend of Lord King (you can't be, he's dead), Colin Marshall, .... Willie Walsh (you can't be - he doesn't have any friends, or at least that's what some seem to believe).
And my all time best, I am a personal friend of the Archbishop of Canterbury (Robert Runcie at the time).
To which the first class steward replied: "you had better pray for divine intervention then".
I will write it large again IT DOES NOT HAPPEN.
Unless it's changed, which I doubt, no passenger is ever downgraded to allow positioning crew to sit in a higher class than a downgraded passenger.
IT DOES NOT HAPPEN.
I think Henky started this (if it wasn't you, accept my apologies).
What I suspect happened was he overheard someone who had asked for an upgrade whingeing because he hadn't got it.
In my experience they fall into several categories
Don't you know I'm an MP, euro MP, government minister etc. - they have bought an economy ticket but have charged the tax payer for a J or F ticket.
They are a personal friend of Lord King (you can't be, he's dead), Colin Marshall, .... Willie Walsh (you can't be - he doesn't have any friends, or at least that's what some seem to believe).
And my all time best, I am a personal friend of the Archbishop of Canterbury (Robert Runcie at the time).
To which the first class steward replied: "you had better pray for divine intervention then".
I will write it large again IT DOES NOT HAPPEN.
I have decided to butt out of the discussion, but I needed to correct this.
By the way, I see nothing wrong with staff flying in Business or even First for work if it is part of their remuneration. I would not travel in Y for my employer either.
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Letter to Santa
Dear Santa
I must apologise for the lateness of my letter and hope that its "not to late". Its been a mad couple of weeks in fact its been a mad year what with global recession, money worries, increased unemployment, continuing wars around the world and until very recently the prospect of spending Christmas alone and not with my family. Thankfully due to the commonsense of a High Court Judge and a legal system in the UK that is not corrupt I can at least spend christmas with my family - although if you can do something about the weather that would be a big help.
I don't have a big "wish list" this year and most of my "requests I think are reasonable but you may think otherwise. If you don't get a chance to grant my requests perhaps one of your helpers could send me a reply.
1) I would like to go to work without fear of being bullied verbally because I happen to have a different opinion to the "majority"
2) I would like to be able to do the job to the best of my ability without fear of being called "names" because I don't belong to a union anymore and realise that "times are a changing"
3) I am grateful that I have a job in these dire economic times and always remember it was "my choice" to work for my employer - I was not forced into doing it nor am I being kept in their employ against my will
4)I know that I am not alone with my opinions but I dont have the "backing" or the "finances" to be able to make myself heard.
5) I realise that I "work" for a company I dont "run it" and the fact that I used to be a member of a union that appeared to give the impression that they "did run it" rather than represent "ALL" of its members rather than jsut a select few.
6)I wonder if you could get a few people together round a table and get them to talk to one another in an adult fashion and not throw their toys out of the pram everytime something that comes up that they dont agree with.
7)It would be great if you could bring "special" presents to those that work 14 hours a day 6 days a week looking after the sick and needy who dont need "rest" after 3 hours of being nice to people and serving a meal. The same people I am sure deserve something a little extra for NOT "having three days off after working three days", those who "Don't phone in sick because they really don't want to go somewhere where the "flight" might be too busy and the passengers "too demanding" and to those who "save lives" every day rather than once in a blue moon I hope they can also be rewarded with something "nice".
I hope that next year my "wish list" wont be so demanding and I am grateful that I still "do have a job" and am not like so many unfortunate people who don't and not through their choice. I accept that times are "tough" and we have been through the "good" times and hopefully we can get through the "bad" times.
And finally Santa if there is anything that you can do to help the "minority" be heard I am sure that sense will prevail and the "minority" may become the "majority".
Thank you so much.
One "grateful to have a job" person.
P.S. Santa if you hadn't managed to work it out I am Cabin Crew for what was once the "World's Favorite Airline". Any chance you can make it that again.?
I must apologise for the lateness of my letter and hope that its "not to late". Its been a mad couple of weeks in fact its been a mad year what with global recession, money worries, increased unemployment, continuing wars around the world and until very recently the prospect of spending Christmas alone and not with my family. Thankfully due to the commonsense of a High Court Judge and a legal system in the UK that is not corrupt I can at least spend christmas with my family - although if you can do something about the weather that would be a big help.
I don't have a big "wish list" this year and most of my "requests I think are reasonable but you may think otherwise. If you don't get a chance to grant my requests perhaps one of your helpers could send me a reply.
1) I would like to go to work without fear of being bullied verbally because I happen to have a different opinion to the "majority"
2) I would like to be able to do the job to the best of my ability without fear of being called "names" because I don't belong to a union anymore and realise that "times are a changing"
3) I am grateful that I have a job in these dire economic times and always remember it was "my choice" to work for my employer - I was not forced into doing it nor am I being kept in their employ against my will
4)I know that I am not alone with my opinions but I dont have the "backing" or the "finances" to be able to make myself heard.
5) I realise that I "work" for a company I dont "run it" and the fact that I used to be a member of a union that appeared to give the impression that they "did run it" rather than represent "ALL" of its members rather than jsut a select few.
6)I wonder if you could get a few people together round a table and get them to talk to one another in an adult fashion and not throw their toys out of the pram everytime something that comes up that they dont agree with.
7)It would be great if you could bring "special" presents to those that work 14 hours a day 6 days a week looking after the sick and needy who dont need "rest" after 3 hours of being nice to people and serving a meal. The same people I am sure deserve something a little extra for NOT "having three days off after working three days", those who "Don't phone in sick because they really don't want to go somewhere where the "flight" might be too busy and the passengers "too demanding" and to those who "save lives" every day rather than once in a blue moon I hope they can also be rewarded with something "nice".
I hope that next year my "wish list" wont be so demanding and I am grateful that I still "do have a job" and am not like so many unfortunate people who don't and not through their choice. I accept that times are "tough" and we have been through the "good" times and hopefully we can get through the "bad" times.
And finally Santa if there is anything that you can do to help the "minority" be heard I am sure that sense will prevail and the "minority" may become the "majority".
Thank you so much.
One "grateful to have a job" person.
P.S. Santa if you hadn't managed to work it out I am Cabin Crew for what was once the "World's Favorite Airline". Any chance you can make it that again.?
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Henky
I am afraid that we have two different opinions and will never agree.
At least I won't take industrial action against you!!!
Merry Christmas - at least it's probably a bit warmer where you are.
I am afraid that we have two different opinions and will never agree.
At least I won't take industrial action against you!!!
Merry Christmas - at least it's probably a bit warmer where you are.
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The 90 days notice of new contracts would weed-out at least a few of those who don't "get it". So that'd be a start, but would leave still a lot of crew working under "protest". I guess they'd just need to be reminded that by signing the new contract, they "chose" to stay in BAs employ. If the company does go for this opton, then I'd hope it'd come with a very strong reminder of the type of behaviour and attitude expected, which would be monitored and enforced, equally and fairly. In return, maybe a means of involving crew in decisions around products/services might be offered, thereby going some way towards the apparent need for "recognition and acknowledgement", whatever that's all about.
As far as Eurofleet is concerned, most of us seem to be rostered at around the 770 hours per annum mark. Using us upto the full 900 would hugely improve productivity straight-off.
Let's put the CAT out, and work fixed links through LHR. Working via CRC makes the job even more stop/go than it needs to be and, in my case, seems only to add to my tiredness.
Do we need 37 days leave per year? That's a lot of time in my (old fashioned) view. Personally I'd rather give-up 12 of these in order to maintain 10 days off per month.
Short, early, there-and-backs (MAN, CDG for example) ..... what are they about? Coming to work for half a day .... why?
Not sure if it'd be more cost-effective, but I wouldn't mind some 4 or 5 day trips.
Telephone allowance is hardly justifiable these days so could be done away with, or at least halved.
Just some simple ideas .... bigger brains than mine would have to work-out the detail.
..... bigger brains than mine would have to work-out the detail.
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I am afraid that we have two different opinions and will never agree.
A bit like what BASSA and it's 'YES' voting sheep are doing with regards to the current dispute
Maybe in your world it never happens or shouldn't, but regardless of that, the reported fact is Henky witnessed it happen.
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Drew3325,
BRAVO!
Please can you tell Santa I'd like the same please if it's not too much to ask for.
On that note, I'd like to wish everyone a Happy Christmas and a prosperous New Year.
BRAVO!
Please can you tell Santa I'd like the same please if it's not too much to ask for.
On that note, I'd like to wish everyone a Happy Christmas and a prosperous New Year.