British Airways - CC Industrial Relations Mk V
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Gg
Ottergirl, I'd like to ask you your opinion on getting an hourly pay instead of your current type of allowances. I'm not talking numbers here, it's a hypothetical question.
For Gg, I am not against an hourly rate on shorthaul per se. What concerns me about it is the experience our shorthaul pilots are having at the moment; their allowance rate was set a while back when the Euro was about 1.5 to the pound and it is now par. This means that it is quite expensive for them to eat downroute. If we had an hourly rate I would want it reviewed regularly. Of course, if the UK ever entered the Euro-zone then it would be no problem. The monthly travel payment I do have a problem with as it rewards those who do the least work at the expense of those who do the most. Not the way forward I believe. I can see that it might help even out the work on long-haul and, it might even enable them to have a Carmen style bidding system.
As a cost saving measure, an hourly rate doesn't help BA much. There is a slight saving around NI contributions and admin, thats all.
For Two-tone blue
I have never had the opportunity to state how utterly pi55ed off the OH and I are with the standard of service on LHR-IAD-LHR.
Little round of applause for Ottergirl, somebody normal, with knowledge and understanding! Just as a thoughtI return from work via BUD on the 2nd -PM, - having promised never again. It will be interesting to see having had a less than savoury trip out, what the trip back will be like! Should I comment later? 
p.s.I hope I'm not too normal; I was aiming for fascinating and enigmatic!
Last edited by ottergirl; 22nd Dec 2009 at 21:23. Reason: weird pasting
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BA are about to announce that cabin crew relations are at an all time low..... "Following the recent CC ballot, it is obvious that a lot of existing crew are unhappy with their role within the airline and we believe this could have serious safety implications in terms of effective CRM.
We have therefore decided to terminate (90 days) all current cabin crew contracts and we will be re-interviewing all current crew to affirm their suitability for the role. Successful interviewees will be offered new contracts (New Fleet). Any shortfall in CC requirements will be advertised through normal channels"
We have therefore decided to terminate (90 days) all current cabin crew contracts and we will be re-interviewing all current crew to affirm their suitability for the role. Successful interviewees will be offered new contracts (New Fleet). Any shortfall in CC requirements will be advertised through normal channels"
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travelandtrouble
You quote
Thank you for the info - my point was that they never saw a LR payment or whatever the equivalent would have been under their agreement.
Well maybe you should have made that point instead of one which was grossly inaccurate and which is still grossly inaccurate as they did SFO on a 747 - if you are going to post things about Cabin Crew at least get the fact correct
CSDs are not management grade. Their responsibilities give them an eqivalent grade of A5/A6. It is only their perks which are management grade.
(For those who don't know the system, the starting point is A3 for eg junior check in staff, rising to A7/APPG (now Band 3) eg crew team manager and the old MG grade is now Band 2 roughly)
Can you provide a link to your suggestion that a CSD is equivalent to and A5/A6?
Thank you for the info - my point was that they never saw a LR payment or whatever the equivalent would have been under their agreement.
Well maybe you should have made that point instead of one which was grossly inaccurate and which is still grossly inaccurate as they did SFO on a 747 - if you are going to post things about Cabin Crew at least get the fact correct
CSDs are not management grade. Their responsibilities give them an eqivalent grade of A5/A6. It is only their perks which are management grade.
(For those who don't know the system, the starting point is A3 for eg junior check in staff, rising to A7/APPG (now Band 3) eg crew team manager and the old MG grade is now Band 2 roughly)
Can you provide a link to your suggestion that a CSD is equivalent to and A5/A6?
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I am not against an hourly rate on shorthaul per se. What concerns me about it is the experience our shorthaul pilots are having at the moment; their allowance rate was set a while back when the Euro was about 1.5 to the pound and it is now par. This means that it is quite expensive for them to eat downroute. If we had an hourly rate I would want it reviewed regularly. Of course, if the UK ever entered the Euro-zone then it would be no problem. The monthly travel payment I do have a problem with as it rewards those who do the least work at the expense of those who do the most. Not the way forward I believe. I can see that it might help even out the work on long-haul and, it might even enable them to have a Carmen style bidding system.
As a cost saving measure, an hourly rate doesn't help BA much. There is a slight saving around NI contributions and admin, thats all.
As a cost saving measure, an hourly rate doesn't help BA much. There is a slight saving around NI contributions and admin, thats all.
Knowing several people on short haul, and as we also have the same system on longhaul,, I can assure you I have never heard one person say a bad word about the hourly rate for pilots despite the fluctuations. I did post some months ago an analysis of the history of the pound/euro, and even with excessive expenditure on food it showed that worst case a pilot might be £20/month worse off with the lowest exchange rates (near parity occurred last year, not this) and about £15/month BETTER off with the higher euro/pound exchange rates.
Someone starting short haul a year ago would now be better off!
My point was that the differences are small beer and there are good periods and worse periods. Swings and roundabouts +/- £20/month max.
You see it's useful to analyse and question received wisdom, even from your peers. I can recommend it
Also, there is a significant saving for BA with the hourly rate. Do you know how many allowance administrators IFCE can save from their budget by switching to hourly rate? Ask them. Part of the saving can be used to introduce the Carmen system which will share the work out equally, and with a transparent process showing who's got what trips (like our system), you'll see that people get a fair share of the work and thus the fair share of the monthly rate.
I really don't see how you can talk this system down when it works with such obvious success amongst your pilot colleagues.
We're not saying these things because we're management stooges, it's because they work. I would never want us to go back to your system. This system works too well. Honestly.
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Well, well, well...
I am now sitting in the lounge of my hotel in Sydney overlooking the harbor after 27 hours of being on BA planes with BA crew. I have talked to cabin crew (mostly), pilots, ground crew and passengers alike. I will have to think long and hard about how to summarize it and how to carefully formulate the 'positions and interests' I got from all these talks.
It is not all positive, I tell you. Not all negative either.
It is very safe to assume that we have a serious conflict on our hands. What bewilders me is that nobody can seem to agree on what the conflict is about. The lack of understanding is enormous. I take a leap of faith here that I do understand what it is (legally) about.
I'll get back to you...
Regards from Sydney where the weather is lovely!
Henk
I am now sitting in the lounge of my hotel in Sydney overlooking the harbor after 27 hours of being on BA planes with BA crew. I have talked to cabin crew (mostly), pilots, ground crew and passengers alike. I will have to think long and hard about how to summarize it and how to carefully formulate the 'positions and interests' I got from all these talks.
It is not all positive, I tell you. Not all negative either.
It is very safe to assume that we have a serious conflict on our hands. What bewilders me is that nobody can seem to agree on what the conflict is about. The lack of understanding is enormous. I take a leap of faith here that I do understand what it is (legally) about.
I'll get back to you...
Regards from Sydney where the weather is lovely!
Henk
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My biggest annoyances from some people when reading other forums is that they think that striking for 12 days is the only way to force BA to the table - that's right the same BA that wrote to the Union to say they are still up for talks about New Fleet etc etc./.. the only thing changed is crew complements. If the union want them to remove the imposition then a)BA will have to replace the manpower shortfall by new crew on new T&Cs probablly which we have all gathered that now. To then save the amount of money that the reduced crew complements WOULD BE saving, the Union would need to URGENTLY (none of this we say no you say no we don't agree wah! I don't want to listen to a presentation would cut it!) make savings some other way. HUGE paycut anyone?? Like someone pointed out, in order to save £140m from 14000 crew with a paycut alone you are looking at a HUGE loss of earning, somehow I don't think many people will agree to this. OK then single nightstops on WW, loss of day off on EF, fixed links, or EVERYONE working to scheme on hourly rate including those old contract crew at BASSA. Those are the only options, so I think I'd rather have one less crew member, sure it might be a struggle on some flights but with tweaks in routines etc then I'm sure it will be fine! BA have shown they are willing to talk about the rest. The longer the union moan about ''we can't let them get away with this'' then BA will say, too late we have to introduce New Fleet for our new recruits. Why can't they see that. Do they really think by striking BA will put the extra crew back on board and faff around for another 9 months not getting anywhere because the union can't accept things change????
It's not BA needing to return to the table it is the Union needing to return to planet Earth
It's not BA needing to return to the table it is the Union needing to return to planet Earth
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Oh, and I must admit I am very worried at the moment about it all, the public have been reading all these press reports so many are against us and think BA are a terrible airline, bookings are affected for Xmas due to the threat of strike PLUS the weather disrpution over the last couple of days and many people are not booking now because of another ballot being sent out! When will some of our colleagues in Lalaland wake up, seriously!
There was even a post on the BASSA site which mentioned a certain large company avoiding us at the moment due to the threat of strikes, someone thought it was great and posted I kid you not: Less Bookings, less passengers, happier crew. There is a God afterall, looking forward to a longer break onboard.
Are some people living in some lala Euphoria?? Maybe they are hypoxic and confused!!
There was even a post on the BASSA site which mentioned a certain large company avoiding us at the moment due to the threat of strikes, someone thought it was great and posted I kid you not: Less Bookings, less passengers, happier crew. There is a God afterall, looking forward to a longer break onboard.
Are some people living in some lala Euphoria?? Maybe they are hypoxic and confused!!
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I'm amazed that BA haven't got the lawyers on BassaForum and CF's behind yet. So many cases for libel and gross misconduct, it's disgusting.
Seriously, we need to weed these people out once and for all. It's clear to anyone with a few brain cells that these so-called colleagues will ruin our reputation even more and will potentially ruin our livelihood.
Words fail me.
Gg
Seriously, we need to weed these people out once and for all. It's clear to anyone with a few brain cells that these so-called colleagues will ruin our reputation even more and will potentially ruin our livelihood.
Words fail me.
Gg
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I seem to remember this woman being a rather insipid autocue reader on one of the minor breakfast programmes. Now she's a "columnist"? Naturally this was posted to me by my BASSA supporting chum, who doesn't much like it when they get real facts in return 
And yes, when I cut'n'pasted it just now, it did say "he has another think coming." Give me strength.
Daily Mirror:
And yes, when I cut'n'pasted it just now, it did say "he has another think coming." Give me strength.
Daily Mirror:
Blame British Airways bosses for bumpy ride
By Fiona Phillips 19/12/2009
With the Christmas strike off thanks to the High Court ruling in favour of BA, it’s clear cabin crew lost the PR battle.
They’re seen as well-paid, greedy and pampered.
But what has been forgotten is that they’ve already offered £150million in savings through pay cuts and voluntary job losses.
The deal was struck with the proviso that ordinary conditions would be restored when the airline goes back into profit.
BA boss Willie Walsh applied the savings in November, then said the new terms were permanent. So cabin crew have no chance of getting back what they’ve given up. Where’s the incentive in that?
And why did Walsh spend days with his lawyers instead of negotiating with the union?
There are 14,000 cabin crew. They have helped the airline to survive. Management hasn’t.
Walsh has no support from cabin crew and if he thinks strike threats are over thanks to the High Court, he has another think coming.
The more staff are bashed over the head the more likely are strikes next year.
Management have acted appallingly. The union Unite has made mistakes. The real losers are BA’s cabin crew.
By Fiona Phillips 19/12/2009
With the Christmas strike off thanks to the High Court ruling in favour of BA, it’s clear cabin crew lost the PR battle.
They’re seen as well-paid, greedy and pampered.
But what has been forgotten is that they’ve already offered £150million in savings through pay cuts and voluntary job losses.
The deal was struck with the proviso that ordinary conditions would be restored when the airline goes back into profit.
BA boss Willie Walsh applied the savings in November, then said the new terms were permanent. So cabin crew have no chance of getting back what they’ve given up. Where’s the incentive in that?
And why did Walsh spend days with his lawyers instead of negotiating with the union?
There are 14,000 cabin crew. They have helped the airline to survive. Management hasn’t.
Walsh has no support from cabin crew and if he thinks strike threats are over thanks to the High Court, he has another think coming.
The more staff are bashed over the head the more likely are strikes next year.
Management have acted appallingly. The union Unite has made mistakes. The real losers are BA’s cabin crew.
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BBC - MESSAGE BOARDS - Radio 3 - Platform 3
This discussion of the proposed strike on the BBC radio 3 forum has degenerated into name calling and insults by assorted gays. Sad really.
This discussion of the proposed strike on the BBC radio 3 forum has degenerated into name calling and insults by assorted gays. Sad really.
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I have thought long and hard if and/or how I should comment here on the conversations I had with crew, pilots, ground staff and passengers alike in the last 27 hours. It was good that we were all in this bad weather boat, since that gives ample opportunity for chatting.
I decided not to go into detail too much. All I can say is that I am disappointed. There is so much hatred and distrust within the company that I honestly fear it can never truly heal again. I don’t think it matters whether WW leaves or not. It does not matter if BASSA is broken. There is a word for what is spreading in this company but we have been asked not to use it.
Every single crew member had a different story about why they think a strike was called or why BA management got an injunction. I have heard incredible nonsense, conspiracy theories, you name it. About 70% of the crew is still in favor of a strike and the majority wanted to make it life or death. WW out of bankrupt…. Mind you, most of the crew were very professional, worked their bums off and showed no sign of frustration to their passengers.
As so rightly stated by someone before the negotiation style I proclaim requires two parties willing to reach a solution. Even if ever so slightly. I am not sure that is the case here anymore.
I have no advice anymore either. It seems that indeed a majority of the cc is in favor of a fight although no one has a real sense of the issue(s). I do believe that some staff will lose money and I believe it is because they can simply work less.
It was confirmed that the interest of the crew is universal:
Not sure that will help much since they follow BASSA blindly. Even those who thought the 12 days strike was a mistake. About 50% thought so. A PR mistake only though.
We did manage to come up with a joke.
What is left when you remove BA from BASSA?
(Hint: remove the last A)
I give up. It will probably be a fight and there is just no way BASSA can win that. Being right (assuming you think they are) is completely beside the point.
I decided not to go into detail too much. All I can say is that I am disappointed. There is so much hatred and distrust within the company that I honestly fear it can never truly heal again. I don’t think it matters whether WW leaves or not. It does not matter if BASSA is broken. There is a word for what is spreading in this company but we have been asked not to use it.
Every single crew member had a different story about why they think a strike was called or why BA management got an injunction. I have heard incredible nonsense, conspiracy theories, you name it. About 70% of the crew is still in favor of a strike and the majority wanted to make it life or death. WW out of bankrupt…. Mind you, most of the crew were very professional, worked their bums off and showed no sign of frustration to their passengers.
As so rightly stated by someone before the negotiation style I proclaim requires two parties willing to reach a solution. Even if ever so slightly. I am not sure that is the case here anymore.
I have no advice anymore either. It seems that indeed a majority of the cc is in favor of a fight although no one has a real sense of the issue(s). I do believe that some staff will lose money and I believe it is because they can simply work less.
It was confirmed that the interest of the crew is universal:
- Appreciation
- Involvement
- Being treated as a valuable asset to BA
Not sure that will help much since they follow BASSA blindly. Even those who thought the 12 days strike was a mistake. About 50% thought so. A PR mistake only though.
We did manage to come up with a joke.
What is left when you remove BA from BASSA?
(Hint: remove the last A)
I give up. It will probably be a fight and there is just no way BASSA can win that. Being right (assuming you think they are) is completely beside the point.
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Desertia
And according to Google, an active member of the Labour Party.
Here's a clip of her speaking at the Labour Party Conference so people can decide what weight they should give her as a commentator on economic matters. The topic was Securing Britain's economic recovery.
I guess she'd agree with romans44 who admits BA CSD's earn £50K and thinks there's "nothing wrong with that".
Funny how she doesn't mention that to her Daily Mirror readers.
I wonder why?
I seem to remember this woman being a rather insipid autocue reader on one of the minor breakfast programmes. Now she's a "columnist"?
Here's a clip of her speaking at the Labour Party Conference so people can decide what weight they should give her as a commentator on economic matters. The topic was Securing Britain's economic recovery.
I guess she'd agree with romans44 who admits BA CSD's earn £50K and thinks there's "nothing wrong with that".
Funny how she doesn't mention that to her Daily Mirror readers.
I wonder why?
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midman
Ottergirl, you've been believing the Bassa misinformation again about the hourly rate
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@ henkybaby- thank you for that report. Enlightening, and very sad. In particular it highlights that CC, for whatever reason, are seemingly determined to impose maximum damage on the company. Bizarre. Turkey/Christmas springs inevitably to mind.
What will the pax/CC relationship be in the future [if there is one]?
What will the pax/CC relationship be in the future [if there is one]?
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It was nice to see Miss Philips continuing the lie that BASSA offered £150m of savings to the company - we all know it was £54M and that to be repaid in two years. Still why let truth get in the way of a columnists rubbish.
Last edited by Juan Tugoh; 23rd Dec 2009 at 12:16.
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It was nice to see Miss philips continuing the lie that BASSA offered £150m of savings to the company - we all know it was £54M and that to be repaid in two years. Still why let truth get in the way of a columnists rubbish.
Their take on it is that they have lost out marginally overall since the pound took a plummet
... It's certainly an issue for anyone in Shorthaul who actually spends their allowances downroute 
On the other hand being paid allowances in Sterling can work to the advantage of our Worldwide colleagues spending their allowances in some of our more exotic destinations.
Personally having used both systems in Long Haul ( hourly rate vs. destination specific) I much prefer the hourly rate.