British Airways - CC Industrial Relations Mk V

[Jarvy]

Miss M, in a previous post you say that you voted for strike action as you believed BA would give in if threatend with a strike. Newsflash they can't and won't. As SLF with some brains it can be difficult to get a true picture of the facts as both sides have such different views but as someone who watched with horror as British Industry was destroyed in the 70's by left wing union activists you are not best served by the likes of Mr McClusky, who takes great pride in the number of strikes he has led.
So as people are not booking with BA as the threat of IA is still there then BA will lose more money and will require further cut backs leading to further union problems, and on and on and on untill it just goes!
This is from someone who likes BA and believes it can still be something to be proud of. If only........
Passengers can operate these doors,I do listen and can read surprise surprise.
I also said on an earlier post its not just about WW, if he does go (very doubtful) someone else will arrive with the same cost cutting ideas to push forward. Everyone has suffered in todays economy and no body likes it but this is 2009 so things must evolve or die.

[MissM]

BA tried it with Mid Fleet in the 1990's in an attempt to get away from the then ancient BOAC and BEA working practices but for some reason abandoned the fleet.

BA could not even make a third fleet at LHR work. What makes them think that they will able to do it this time? Because of more flexible scheduling agreements?

BA must be the only airline in the world that operates extensive short haul and long haul services with the cabin crew operating only one or the other but not both apart from at LGW.

I also think Air France does it and some of the US carriers too. Qantas and Air New Zealand also come to mind.

[bealine]

I just wish everyone would just agree:

The whole world of aviation - not just British Airways - has changed, thanks largely to the Low-Cost, Low-Regulated, non-IATA airlines, who only got where they did by dint of 09/11.

I think that some changes to the way everyone works and the contracts under which we work are inevitable. I believe everyone who works for British Airways in any capacity understands that much.

However, there is also no getting away from the fact that all of these problems stem from p155 poor Industrial Relations and both managers and TU reps who dig their heels in and say "No!" and won't talk any further. For ACAS to be unable to break any deadlock, there must be something wrong!

The art of negotiation is both sides walking away from talks thinking they have obtained the best deal available to them. Expecting managers to go back to Willie Walsh and face his wrath for letting the crew "get away with" xyz or to expect the TU Reps to go back to the membership to be accused of "giving it all away" is just plain wrong. Neither side appears to have had any bargaining tools at their disposal.

That, to put it simply, is what has gone wrong!

[DP.]

Do you think UK's largest airline which holds some 40% of the slots at LHR would go out of business?

It is entirely possible. On what basis do you think this couldn't happen?

He won't be here for very much longer.

Again, based on what? His job doesn't seem to be in too much danger from where i'm standing.

[MissM]

Absolutely right - no one is asking you to give up anything - unless you are a CSD in which case you are simply being asked to use your vast experience in a fully customer facing role - that is after all why you joined, no?

I really can't see what all the fuss is about other than two things:

1. BASSA CSDs feel demeaned by having to push a trolley once more.
2. BASSA didn't say yes to this suggestion.

Change has to happen - like it or not - so what do you propose?
You sound very passionate so you must have some ideas - let's hear them.

I'm not against changes as long as they happen through negotiations and not impositions. Maybe if we had been consulted about removing one to two crew members from our aircrafts there could have been some more willingness to work along with it. It's not about just removing one crew member. We have lost two crew members on some routes (which seems to have been failed to present in media).

The crewiong levels generally work well at LGW and as you say these along witht hoe other new ways of working saved the base from closure. Costs at LHR (like they were at LGW) are now usustainable and not market competitive so similar solutions are now being applied at LHR to get the company in shape to compete when the economy picks up. Your personal pocket will be unaffected so again I say, what is the problem?

Sooner or later there will be an impact on our personal pocket. When, and not if, NewFleet comes through they'll start moving our best paid routes and starve us to work. Then they'll give us the ultimatium either to transfer on a new contract or point us to the door. Simple as that. It will even happen with this monthly payment because it's probably a temporary solution to make us accept it.

[Andy_S]

Originally Posted by MissM

Do you think UK's largest airline which holds some 40% of the slots at LHR would go out of business?

Actually, yes. Don't confuse assets with cash. BA are losing money hand over fist at the moment, and it's not sustainable. You can't pay suppliers in slots. When BA's cash drops below a certain level you are in REAL trouble.

Originally Posted by MissM

We do have a responsibility for our passengers and one great concern is covering doors 5 on 747. We were taught in training and been more or less brainwashed not to leave those doors unmanned at any time. Now, all of the sudden it's all right to leave them once they have been armed as "passengers will remain seated and would have paid attention to the safety demo and know how to operate the door". It's rubbish!

Maybe so, but it's still a management decision. It may be the WRONG decision, but it's still their call not yours.

[Juan Tugoh]

Miss M,

you stated

Do you think UK's largest airline which holds some 40% of the slots at LHR would go out of business? Personally I don't think so and not many are, myself included, in the mood for WW and his fight over our T&C's which we have fought hard for. He won't be here for very much longer.

So that we may assess whether your opinion is worth listening to please post your credentials as an economist and your clear and precise reasons as to why BA will not go bust if we continue along this track.

Thank you

[MissM]

MissM, back in 2001, when the 16th crew member was removed after 11th September, the B747-400 flew with up to 409 pax.

Since then we have had them reconfigured with lie-flat beds in Club, hi-Club configs on some aircraft and WTP cabins introduced. All of these changes have reduced the 409 pax to a max now of 351 pax, and sometimes as few as 291 pax.

Are you really suggesting that you still need 15 crew (let alone 16) on these flights, when the configurations have reduced by 50+ seats? Time to take a reality pill, methinks.

It was a temporary measurement after 9/11 but has now turned out to be another lie from our so called management.

[pvmw]

Do you think UK's largest airline which holds some 40% of the slots at LHR would go out of business? Personally I don't think so.............

Oh dear,someone else with limited grasp of reality!!

All one can say in reply is British steel, British Leyland, British Shipbuilders, British Coal.....

I'm sure all the union sheep spouted the same nonsense at those companies as you do now. Where are they now???? Accept reality before its too late. BA is losing money hand over fist. Companies that lose money GO BUST. Having "British" in the name doesn't make you immune to reality. Efficient airlines will line up to have those slots, they are probably BAs biggest commercial asset.

I am just depressed at the naivety and stupidity of it. Why is reality so difficult for some people to grasp.


Ask all the ex-workers of the above companies how they are now. Also, see how many of the union fat-cats lost out. BASSA aren't in it to protect your job. They don't give a Monkey's whatsit for you. You are simply cannon fodder in the great struggle against Capitalism.

[MissM]

Time for work! I'll reply another time!

[TopBunk]

MissM

It may have been a temporary measure after 11th September - I wouldn't ague, but times have moved on.

Now how about answering the rest of my points?

No? Thought not

[cloudn9ne]

MissM I agree that the threat of a new fleet would be seen as a threat by the pilots too but the difference is we will keep negotiating with managment on an adult level and keep compromising if we believe that is needed to survive. We have done and will keep doing so if needs must.

The reason the threat of New Fleet is here for you now is that BA has realised it cannot negotiate on a adult level with BASSA and the long term savings needed will never be agreed to. If current crew wont make permenant changes the only option for BA is a new fleet or it just wont be able to survive or compete with other airlines in the future. The airline industry has changed for the foreseable future especially as we will lose many customers due to the bad press and strike threat BASSA has created.

Only a BASSA believer could claim ''BA would never go bust''. What a ridiculous idea. If an airline is losing £1.5 million a day and something doesnt change then it will go out of business especially when the threat of strike hangs around and our customers go elsewhere!! who exactly do you think will save BA?

BASSA and its members dont know the reality of the financial threat to BA because at the beginning of the 'negotiations' many months ago they wouldnt agree to sign the non-dislosure agreement with BA and therefore never got to see the BA confidential financial info. From day one BASSA doesnt seem to have realised the gravity of the situation facing BA and one way or another we will all suffer as a consequence, customers, crew and BA.

When passengers go elsewhere they will probably never come back and without them the business will shrink, people will lose their jobs and T and Cs will be cut.

[Desertia]

I wonder if MissM and Fume Event (and....) are in some way related.

This is so not rocket surgery <heh>

[Two-Tone-Blue]

Originally Posted by HiFlyer14

We are now trying to find solutions rather than just hash over the same problems, , and I think the customers should be a part in finding that solution as, after all, they know best. So to that end I have a question for you our (much needed) customers.

What would it take to reassure you that customer service is our priority and what could we the cabin crew do to demonstrate that and make sure that you travel on BA in the future?

Also any advice that you have from the outside world of overpowering this enormous out-of-control monster that is BASSA would be much appreciated.

Hello there, Duty Adult!! I'll try to offer some constructive comment, but inevitably [due to BA experiences] some will be a bit negative. I really don't give a damn about who's right or wrong, CC89 or New Fleet, LHR or LGW, BASSA or Unite. But ... when I pay £3k+ for flights, and anticipate another £3k of costs at the other end, I have some justification in expecting things to happen at a commensurate standard.

So here's a private citizen, paying with his own money, with his J-class long-haul perspective [all my BA short-haul experiences have been VERY positive, BTW] ...

1. Industrial Relations. An airline that is riven with Industrial Disputes [either in the air or on the ground] is going to lose customers. Simples. As BA consolidates into T5, the opportunity for more disruption increases. A single-point failure thus presents itself - do i really wish to 'invest' through my air tickets in something that could go TU at any moment? Answer - stop pretending the 80's still exist. The only real advantage Unions have now is the ability to put their members out of work - the rest of society isn't going to play that game any more. Tip 1 = forget BASSA and Unions, they just cause grief.

2. On The Ground. LHR T5 is ... OK. I can't rate it any better than that. Yes, I checked in on-line, dropped the bags, and then queued for 30 minutes in "Fast Track" security. BA's or BAA's fault? I don't care - pax were losing their tempers over it, and that is NOT priority service. Club Lounges ... OK, but honestly underwhelmed by the food. Positive = someone at the gate intercepting non-Priority pax and sending them back to the beginning; thanks, that's part of what we pay for. Tip 2 = skip the advertising hype and deliver what's expected.

3. In The Air.

a. Get the airline to find somewhere else for YOUR kit instead of in OUR overheads That one really pi55es me off - if you need space, don't use ours, because we're paying for it. Tip 3 = sort out on-board infrastructure.

b. On-board welcome - generally OK. No big issues, although when complimentary drinks are offered, they should be available AND cold where appropriate. Last outbound LHR-IAD i was offered a plastic cup of tepid water. What was the CSD/PSR thinking about? Or was this a case of "late to work 'cos I don't get paid for checking stuff"? Tip 4 = deliver agreed standards of service.

c. "... but Primarily for your Safety .." So when a J-class flat-bed isn't working, and won't go fully upright [it was bout 3 degrees off], don't get stroppy with my wife. It's BA's fault. And having relocated her to First for take-off [after a rush through PE in case there was a space] nobody bothered to check for the landing. CSD presumably exhausted by 8 hours of chatting? Tip 5 = we're paying you, and NEVER forget that.

d. Food and Drink.

• I know a lot of your pax are business travellers, who want to sleep or work and don't care about the peripherals. However, some of us aren't. So I do actually expect the choice of food and wine to be as printed on the menu - especially the latter. It's intolerable that a menu choice should be unavailable in Club because we happen to be at the wrong end of the cabin.
• Oh - CSDs, white wine is served chilled. If it isn't, it's bordering on undrinkable - something else to check, perhaps?
• And don't make ME reach across the partition to take my tray - you had room to present it properly. BA Club Class is NOT MaccyD's.
• The new Club seats and layout are a nightmare for you as well as us. You need to stick carefully to your serving regimes, otherwise things get missed out [like my wife's breakfast, after-dinner coffee - does she have some disease? And don't get stroppy when she points it out! We're nice friendly people, not some over-inflated ego CEOs.

Tip 6 = attention to detail.

e. En-Route.

• Ahh, poor MaxJet. Do you know they had CC walking the aisle all the way to USA, with trays of water and juice, all the time? They used to stop for a chat [if that's not disturbing you] to ask if everything's OK. They treated you as a valued customer. Davida [the best CC i have ever met] gave us a hug after baggage reclaim at STN after our second trip - she cared about HER people and HER airline. Tip 7 = take REALLY good care of your pax, or they'll go elsewhere.
• BA ... my impression over the year is that CC can't wait to get the meal service out of the way and then "sod the proles". I have lost count of the number of times either myself or my wife have been missed with some item during service ... and Gawd help you if you dare ask for what's been missed. Honestly, we feel like an inconvenience to BA long-haul CC. Tip 8 = you are paid to serve the customers. NEVER forget that.

f. Aircraft. They work [well done, Eng Div] but some are obviously getting a bit tired. The last time we managed to get top-side on a 747 to IAD is was FILTHY - spilt drink swilling round the handle of the side locker, sticky surfaces. Who declared the a/c fit for service? Does the CSD check [oh, sorry, too busy, not enough time]. Tip 9 = attention to detail, again.

4. After landing. Forget the Company-driven bullsh1t messages. They're like Tracy at MaccyD's saying "Have a Nice Day". Consider a slightly personal touch, like "I'm sorry your seat wasn't working" or "I'll double check the white wine next trip". Tip 10 = We are people.


Rant over, hope some of that helps. Whatever, I feel better for saying it

[edit = oooh, just got her BA Executive Club Statement while typing that! ]

[Right Engine]

You can't use New Fleet as an excuse - BA offered BASSA a travel allowance to remove that threat to 'box payments' - They rejected it and thus admitted that allowances for World Wide crew exceed 20k per year.

[deeceethree]

Two-Tone-Blue,

Go get 'em fella! BA does have cabin crew who believe it is more important for them to be in a bunk/seat rather than to be looking after passengers. If they spent more of their off-time getting proper rest prior to flying, instead of shopping right up to pick-up from the hotel, they might cope better.

[Andy_S]

Originally Posted by MissM

I'm not against changes as long as they happen through negotiations and not impositions.

Hang on. Just a few minutes ago you said:

Originally Posted by MissM

I started flying right after school and have been here for almost 15 years and will do everything I can to hold on to what I have.

So which is it to be? I'm honestly not trying to catch you out, but I'm struggling to understand your position. Either you're willing to be flexible and agree changes to your working practices, or you're going to dig your heels in as a matter of principle and refuse to give anything away.

[Two-Tone-Blue]

Originally Posted by DeeCeeThree

Two-Tone-Blue,
Go get 'em fella! BA does have cabin crew who believe it is more important for them to be in a bunk/seat rather than to be looking after passengers. If they spent more of their off-time getting proper rest prior to flying, instead of shopping right up to pick-up from the hotel, they might cope better.

I'm not honestly interested in a fight with anyone. I just simply state the facts as I've seen them. The details of what happens down route is their private life, and I shall not insult them by going there. What happens on the a/c is, however, what I pay for.

I've encountered some very good CC in my life; I just can't quite attach any of them to my BA long-haul experiences.
On the OTHER hand, I have been seriously impressed with the BA LGW-JER crews.

[Desertia]

Two-tone-blue thanks for the levity. I doubt it will sink in, but it brought a smile to my face

[Two-Tone-Blue]

Originally Posted by desertia

Two-tone-blue thanks for the levity. I doubt it will sink in, but it brought a smile to my face

I assume sarcasm? Please do elaborate.