British Airways - CC Industrial Relations Mk V
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There are so many things to comment on..
Two-tone, I'm mortified reading your post about how you've been treated. I genuinely mean this: I'm sorry. I know I wasn't on your flight, but I still feel the need to apologise. These crew members shouldn't be in the job, as they clearly don't know how to provide customer service. If you do choose another flight with us, please do fill in a comments card. I know you shouldn't have to, but unfortunately it's necessary.
MissM, I have a funny feeling that regardless what we say to you, you will only believe what Bassa tell you. We have to accept that, I suppose. What you will have to accept, though, is that we're trying to come up with a solution. May I recommend that you read this thread and the previous thread (now locked) before any other comments (if you haven't already done so)?
I don't want to get into a personal discussion here, but if you've been flying for 15 years, I'm wondering what school you went to before you started? In those days, you had to be at least 21 yo, and nurse/nursing/hospitality/child care qualifications/ customer service experience to name a few as an example. Do you mean you started flying straight from a college or that you had experience from somewhere else? I'm not "attacking" you, just wondering.
In regards to the slots at LHR, we might be forced to sell some slots to raise money if we can't control costs. This will in turn reduce our flying capacity, less opportunity for revenue, and a slippery slope into oblivion. This rescession is very real, and we need to deal with it now, although preferably several months ago.
So, to try to bring us back on track for finding solutions:
We agree changes have to be made. We are trying to come up with ideas what kind of changes we can live with and how to implement them. I understand the threat of NewFleet, and that's why I'm trying this option. If we could only come up with enough savings that was acceptable to the cc community and management/board, then maybe, just maybe we could do something about NewFleet (it's a long shot, but worth having a go). And contrary to what some people may believe, I have no "new union" agenda here. I'm trying to save our company and jobs. Yes, I can hear you scream that I can't do it, but someone's got to try it, surely?
As I've said before, more ideas and solutions most welcome. Please keep it constructive and workable if you can.
Finally, I'd like to give you an alternative Christmas wish list:
Christmas gift suggestions:
To your enemy, forgiveness.
To an opponent, tolerance.
To a friend, your heart.
To a customer, service.
To all, charity.
To every child, a good example.
To yourself, respect.
Gg
Two-tone, I'm mortified reading your post about how you've been treated. I genuinely mean this: I'm sorry. I know I wasn't on your flight, but I still feel the need to apologise. These crew members shouldn't be in the job, as they clearly don't know how to provide customer service. If you do choose another flight with us, please do fill in a comments card. I know you shouldn't have to, but unfortunately it's necessary.
MissM, I have a funny feeling that regardless what we say to you, you will only believe what Bassa tell you. We have to accept that, I suppose. What you will have to accept, though, is that we're trying to come up with a solution. May I recommend that you read this thread and the previous thread (now locked) before any other comments (if you haven't already done so)?
I don't want to get into a personal discussion here, but if you've been flying for 15 years, I'm wondering what school you went to before you started? In those days, you had to be at least 21 yo, and nurse/nursing/hospitality/child care qualifications/ customer service experience to name a few as an example. Do you mean you started flying straight from a college or that you had experience from somewhere else? I'm not "attacking" you, just wondering.
In regards to the slots at LHR, we might be forced to sell some slots to raise money if we can't control costs. This will in turn reduce our flying capacity, less opportunity for revenue, and a slippery slope into oblivion. This rescession is very real, and we need to deal with it now, although preferably several months ago.
So, to try to bring us back on track for finding solutions:
We agree changes have to be made. We are trying to come up with ideas what kind of changes we can live with and how to implement them. I understand the threat of NewFleet, and that's why I'm trying this option. If we could only come up with enough savings that was acceptable to the cc community and management/board, then maybe, just maybe we could do something about NewFleet (it's a long shot, but worth having a go). And contrary to what some people may believe, I have no "new union" agenda here. I'm trying to save our company and jobs. Yes, I can hear you scream that I can't do it, but someone's got to try it, surely?
As I've said before, more ideas and solutions most welcome. Please keep it constructive and workable if you can.
Finally, I'd like to give you an alternative Christmas wish list:
Christmas gift suggestions:
To your enemy, forgiveness.
To an opponent, tolerance.
To a friend, your heart.
To a customer, service.
To all, charity.
To every child, a good example.
To yourself, respect.
Gg
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Originally Posted by jaffy
As others have said, British Airways flights can be the best in the business. The crews are often fabulous, and their pride in doing a first class job for their customers is evident. Passengers get off with a feeling of wellbeing. Everyone’s happy. Then they take the return flight and it’s like they were on a different airline. Why not have anonymous standards inspectors travelling in the cabin to try to improve consistency. I’ll volunteer!
After a lifetime in the military, you get used to "someone" being in overall command. Sadly, in the post 9/11 world, you and your kin are locked away on the flight deck. And perhaps the Unions won't let you interfere with non-driving issues?
independent audits - OMG, Unite and BASSA would have the biggest hissy fit since Scargill. The thought that we, the paying customers, might possibly have a voice in what happens during our 7/8+ hours in the alloy tube? Wash your mouth out with soap, Skipper!
I cite my earlier remarks about MaxJet - a shame they expanded too fast [as the Captain commented to me at IAD on our last trip]. But at least they understood what 'customer service' was about - BIG TIME. Boarding at STN - "Whenever you're ready, we're boarding now but there's no need to rush."
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Originally Posted by GlamGirl
Two-tone, I'm mortified reading your post about how you've been treated. I genuinely mean this: I'm sorry. I know I wasn't on your flight, but I still feel the need to apologise. These crew members shouldn't be in the job, as they clearly don't know how to provide customer service. If you do choose another flight with us, please do fill in a comments card. I know you shouldn't have to, but unfortunately it's necessary.
We used to use VS and then MaxJet - we eventually switched to BA for the convenience associated with booking through from JER. We've done BA J-class [I think] 3 times in the last couple of years on that route, and are [theoretically] doing it twice next year. Frankly we'll burn our BA Miles on the first one, and swap back to VS for the second. EVERY experience on LHR-IAd has been below what I expected.
Ladies and Gents, some of your colleagues are providing an UTTERLY sub-standard service.
[edit = thanks for letting a paying customer have a voice in here. I do so with some trepidation, because I know you have very strong views about Terms of Service and Unions. That's your debate, not mine. I just comment from the "User-Pays" corner
]
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MalcolmF
You quoted
In the last BASSA election only about 1800 bothered to vote, until the rank and file membership get engaged there won't be any change. I can only assume that they were happy with the existing Reps.
The truth is 3828 people voted - somewhat different to the figure that you quoted
In the last BASSA election only about 1800 bothered to vote, until the rank and file membership get engaged there won't be any change. I can only assume that they were happy with the existing Reps.
The truth is 3828 people voted - somewhat different to the figure that you quoted
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BigBrutha
You quoted
On longhaul it is WT+, with Club if there's room for main crew. For the CSD it's Club with NO entitlement to First.
In fact you are totally incorrect as the CSD has a First entitlement when positioning - commensurate with their management grade
On longhaul it is WT+, with Club if there's room for main crew. For the CSD it's Club with NO entitlement to First.
In fact you are totally incorrect as the CSD has a First entitlement when positioning - commensurate with their management grade
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The solution? Personally, I think it has to be the complete removal of BASSA from the equation and its replacement by a union with the real interests of its members and the future of the company at heart. BASSA have demonstrated that they are never going to act reasonably. While they exist the threat of further strikes will always hang over BA and discourage customers from using the company.
I think BA needs to bite the bullet, confront them head on and use every means at their disposal to destroy them completely. If that results in a strike, then so be it. The company will suffer in the short term – but if the outcome is that customers can see that in future the company is in control of its own destiny they may return. It will take time, once confidence is lost it is very hard to regain. – but it will never be regained while the current situation exists.
I think BA needs to bite the bullet, confront them head on and use every means at their disposal to destroy them completely. If that results in a strike, then so be it. The company will suffer in the short term – but if the outcome is that customers can see that in future the company is in control of its own destiny they may return. It will take time, once confidence is lost it is very hard to regain. – but it will never be regained while the current situation exists.
Its the only way - cut out the cancer and the patient might die after the surgery. Leave it and the patient will die for sure.
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deeceethree
You quote
Go get 'em fella! BA does have cabin crew who believe it is more important for them to be in a bunk/seat rather than to be looking after passengers. If they spent more of their off-time getting proper rest prior to flying, instead of shopping right up to pick-up from the hotel, they might cope better.
If you are so concerned that your crew are not rested prior to flying with you consider a Chirp or a letter to your management
Go get 'em fella! BA does have cabin crew who believe it is more important for them to be in a bunk/seat rather than to be looking after passengers. If they spent more of their off-time getting proper rest prior to flying, instead of shopping right up to pick-up from the hotel, they might cope better.
If you are so concerned that your crew are not rested prior to flying with you consider a Chirp or a letter to your management
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travelandtrouble
You quote
One of the reasons for Mid-Fleet's demise was that BASSA had control of which routes it operated. Even when it had the jumbo, the crews never saw anything further east than the gulf.
You are factually incorrect - Mid Fleet flew to India, Madras
One of the reasons for Mid-Fleet's demise was that BASSA had control of which routes it operated. Even when it had the jumbo, the crews never saw anything further east than the gulf.
You are factually incorrect - Mid Fleet flew to India, Madras
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WWW now claims that greater forces are on their side!! Its not just BA that suffer the weather and I'm sure alot of people trying to get away for Xmas will be most pleased with your last comment. Another own goal I think.
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I think it's rather good that it's foggy. Given that BASSA won't permit the disruption agreement to be used at the moment I predict lots of cheesed off crew stuck downroute after a diversion tomorrow morning enjoying their 2 local nights off. What's that you say? But that would leave them stuck somewhere until Xmas day with no means to get home? Oh dear!
Now, MAA on mid-fleet. Would that be a low allowance, unpopular, no box payment trip then?
Now, MAA on mid-fleet. Would that be a low allowance, unpopular, no box payment trip then?
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Starting to fog up here at LHR seems like mother nature has worked wonders considering we didn't even go on strike so that is day 7 INCLUDING the court ruling. Only 5 more days to go and mother natures work will be complete something BA could not injunct.MERRY XMAS WILLIE.
BA, relatively speaking, has not been hit that badly.
Eurostar has received an absolute pasting over the past few days for the technical problems on its trains and has been the lead story on most TV news bulletins. Just imagine what sort of reaction cabin crew would have received from the public and the media if you'd wrecked your customers Christmas travel plans through deliberate action.
The court injunction was a blessing in disguise for CC.
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All Change
BA are about to announce that cabin crew relations are at an all time low..... "Following the recent CC ballot, it is obvious that a lot of existing crew are unhappy with their role within the airline and we believe this could have serious safety implications in terms of effective CRM.
We have therefore decided to terminate (90 days) all current cabin crew contracts and we will be re-interviewing all current crew to affirm their suitability for the role. Successful interviewees will be offered new contracts (New Fleet). Any shortfall in CC requirements will be advertised through normal channels"
We have therefore decided to terminate (90 days) all current cabin crew contracts and we will be re-interviewing all current crew to affirm their suitability for the role. Successful interviewees will be offered new contracts (New Fleet). Any shortfall in CC requirements will be advertised through normal channels"
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MissM, from my post from a few weeks back:
Your post:
So you and I are in some sort of agreement.
Just to comment on your last sentence quoted above, from an Engineer's experience.....
About 15 years ago, Supervisors and Section Supervisors were told their jobs no longer existed as new grades had been created. They were "invited" to apply for these jobs. If they did not apply then they would be demoted.
I have also heard of similar happenings in other departments.
This is all to do with the changing times. It has finally caught up with the Cabin Crew, though in my eyes, you as a group have still got off relatively lightly at present. The above scenario is, I believe on its way for the CC.
IMHO, WW is moving too slowly. This issue needs to be resolved quickly and if the Union and Management can actually start negotiating with POSITIVE ways of doing this then we can all look to a future of BA ruling the air again. If not, then harsher measures will surely happen.
The input from some of our customers' experience on this thread are similar to my experience on some flights I have taken. Their postings should not be taken with a pinch of salt. Their input should be used as a wake up call, some have already said they will not fly BA. How much longer can those that are still flying with BA hang on before they finally desert us? Not too long me thinks.
Jockster - have you been reading my mind ?
I always thought that the New Fleet was associated with the A380 and B787. So on that basis, I am certain New Fleet will happen.
I speculate that the A380 and B787 will end up doing the "lucrative" routes. So if this IS BASSA's line of thinking (though to be honest, reading through these threads I find it hard to believe at the moment) they would be upset at the "New Fleet" as all the money making routes will disappear.
I speculate that the A380 and B787 will end up doing the "lucrative" routes. So if this IS BASSA's line of thinking (though to be honest, reading through these threads I find it hard to believe at the moment) they would be upset at the "New Fleet" as all the money making routes will disappear.
Your post:
When, and not if, NewFleet comes through they'll start moving our best paid routes and starve us to work. Then they'll give us the ultimatium either to transfer on a new contract or point us to the door.
Just to comment on your last sentence quoted above, from an Engineer's experience.....
About 15 years ago, Supervisors and Section Supervisors were told their jobs no longer existed as new grades had been created. They were "invited" to apply for these jobs. If they did not apply then they would be demoted.
I have also heard of similar happenings in other departments.
This is all to do with the changing times. It has finally caught up with the Cabin Crew, though in my eyes, you as a group have still got off relatively lightly at present. The above scenario is, I believe on its way for the CC.
IMHO, WW is moving too slowly. This issue needs to be resolved quickly and if the Union and Management can actually start negotiating with POSITIVE ways of doing this then we can all look to a future of BA ruling the air again. If not, then harsher measures will surely happen.
The input from some of our customers' experience on this thread are similar to my experience on some flights I have taken. Their postings should not be taken with a pinch of salt. Their input should be used as a wake up call, some have already said they will not fly BA. How much longer can those that are still flying with BA hang on before they finally desert us? Not too long me thinks.
Jockster - have you been reading my mind ?
Last edited by keel beam; 22nd Dec 2009 at 20:39. Reason: Jockster's post above
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Jockster
That really is a poor effort - I suggest you check out the odds on a the new CEO that will be announced shortly - he will be gone before the next round of recruitment
My money is already on Keith Williams
Robert Boyle
2/1
Antonio Vazquez
8/1
Rod Eddington
25/1
Keith Williams
9/4
Dermot Mannion
12/1
Steve Ridgway
33/1
Jim Lawrence
4/1
Michael O'Leary
18/1
Gareth Kirkwood
100/1
Andrew Crawley
6/1
Alan Joyce
20/1
Richard Branson
150/1
My money is already on Keith Williams
Robert Boyle
2/1
Antonio Vazquez
8/1
Rod Eddington
25/1
Keith Williams
9/4
Dermot Mannion
12/1
Steve Ridgway
33/1
Jim Lawrence
4/1
Michael O'Leary
18/1
Gareth Kirkwood
100/1
Andrew Crawley
6/1
Alan Joyce
20/1
Richard Branson
150/1
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Mr Walsh
Given the dreadful weather of the last few days - and the fog that is being predicted over the next few - I bet Mr Walsh wishes he had another 1000 or so Cabin Crew in order to help run the operation!!!
Nope, he probably wishes that the Cabin crew he already employs were able to work to scheme.......
BTW WWW, great call,
we've finally got Pearl Harbor into the game......it's getting a bit like Mornington Crescent
BTW WWW, great call,
we've finally got Pearl Harbor into the game......it's getting a bit like Mornington Crescent
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Starting to fog up here at LHR seems like mother nature has worked wonders considering we didn't even go on strike so that is day 7 INCLUDING the court ruling. Only 5 more days to go and mother natures work will be complete something BA could not injunct.MERRY XMAS WILLIE.
Injunct as much as you like this weather is Willie's Pearl Harbour make no mistake he has shown running the company down to the bare bones can lead to problems getting the operation up and running again. Time to go another day at the office and more problems no doubt off to ooouh la la gay Paris again.
Oops, I think I've gone too far, I hear a mod...
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Quote from the Financial Times
Interesting one this, from the Financial Times today;
FT.com / Columnists / Luke Johnson - Which stakeholder should get priority?
Quote "Meanwhile, British Airways is another category altogether. There, thanks to power-crazed unions and a defined benefit pension scheme, the hierarchy is clearly staff, staff, staff. The entire undertaking has become but a device to keep the staff pension plan solvent. The flight crew’s aborted strike was a self-destructive attempt to defend partisan interests at the expense of everyone else – even if it meant obliterating the entire enterprise. It is useful to know how little BA staff think of the customers who provide their revenue. There can be no question that a bankruptcy of BA would actually be a rational outcome for the travelling public. It would permit the business to shed legacy liabilities and invest for the future as a competitive airline – rather than cling on, ever weaker, as a hostage to its past as a state monopoly."
FT.com / Columnists / Luke Johnson - Which stakeholder should get priority?
Quote "Meanwhile, British Airways is another category altogether. There, thanks to power-crazed unions and a defined benefit pension scheme, the hierarchy is clearly staff, staff, staff. The entire undertaking has become but a device to keep the staff pension plan solvent. The flight crew’s aborted strike was a self-destructive attempt to defend partisan interests at the expense of everyone else – even if it meant obliterating the entire enterprise. It is useful to know how little BA staff think of the customers who provide their revenue. There can be no question that a bankruptcy of BA would actually be a rational outcome for the travelling public. It would permit the business to shed legacy liabilities and invest for the future as a competitive airline – rather than cling on, ever weaker, as a hostage to its past as a state monopoly."