British Airways - CC Industrial Relations Mk V
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Saw Willies' email today and decided to contribute my tuppence worth...
I know for a fact that there are plenty of Engineering staff tripping over themselves to get their names down as volunteer cabin crew.
As aircraft maintenance staff they are already fully conversant with the operation of the doors, IFE/AVOD and other aircraft equipment. They strip them down and rebuild them so operating them would be no problem.
Staff employed airside already have relevant CRB checks. A "cram" course would bring them up to speed with any other requirements and there is time for that. Safety would not be an issue as maintenance staff live and breath safety on a daily basis.
Volunteers placed with non striking crews on flights would fit in fine and if I were a passenger I would be very forgiving if the service was perhaps a little rougher than usual as long as I was on my flight.
Perhaps I'm wrong but I think when it becomes plain that there will be no shortage of volunteers to fly the world for a short while the strike ballot won't look such a clever idea...
I know for a fact that there are plenty of Engineering staff tripping over themselves to get their names down as volunteer cabin crew.
As aircraft maintenance staff they are already fully conversant with the operation of the doors, IFE/AVOD and other aircraft equipment. They strip them down and rebuild them so operating them would be no problem.
Staff employed airside already have relevant CRB checks. A "cram" course would bring them up to speed with any other requirements and there is time for that. Safety would not be an issue as maintenance staff live and breath safety on a daily basis.
Volunteers placed with non striking crews on flights would fit in fine and if I were a passenger I would be very forgiving if the service was perhaps a little rougher than usual as long as I was on my flight.
Perhaps I'm wrong but I think when it becomes plain that there will be no shortage of volunteers to fly the world for a short while the strike ballot won't look such a clever idea...
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@ A Lurker ... I shall reply, against my better judgement.
"Our" terms and conditions? The ones that are acceptable for LGW crews but not at LHR? When there is no fiscal penalty to current CC? How are your T&C changed? Oh, yes, the CSD is required to do a bit more work. Full stop.
Many of your colleagues seem content with that aspect. But, as a matter of 'principle', you are willing to hazard the livelihood of tens of thousands of BA employees?
There are fights to be fought, and there are fights to walk away from, Sir/Madam. Pick your fight and your opponent with care. In this case, you may have failed on 2 counts, but time will undoubtedly reveal the answer. Meanwhile, your employer and your customers will make alternative arrangements.
Originally Posted by A Lurker
... this whole dispute is totally about our self-interest and the protection of our terms and conditions. That has never been in question though has it?
Many of your colleagues seem content with that aspect. But, as a matter of 'principle', you are willing to hazard the livelihood of tens of thousands of BA employees?
There are fights to be fought, and there are fights to walk away from, Sir/Madam. Pick your fight and your opponent with care. In this case, you may have failed on 2 counts, but time will undoubtedly reveal the answer. Meanwhile, your employer and your customers will make alternative arrangements.
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Skills and Qualifications
Ladies and Gentleman all I apologise in advance for this posting, but I have had enough.
You all seem to think that you have something special (basic medical training, survival, fire fighting, languages, customer care, annual medicals etc.).
Three words - you don't.
I work for an organisation considerably larger than BA. We have all the above and more. Many, many organisations have similar skill sets. Our training was considerably more strenuous than anything you went through. Then there are those with military training. Oh yes we have certificates as well.
The organisations I have experienced are nothing special. When I say fire fighting I do not mean your basic training, but real training - aircraft, submarines, ships, oil and gas platforms, buildings, oil and gas pipe lines, proper medical training, because you are in a jungle, a desert or on a ship.
I would be willing to work for BA for three weeks for nothing (other than food, accommodation etc) just so that I could take part in the destruction of something so evil, selfish, greedy and many, many more rude words as Bassa.
Bassa - who have stated they are willing to destroy BA
Bassa - a union that wants to make 40,000 unemployed, to destroy the livelihoods of employees , their partners and their children
Bassa - a union that wants to make thousands homeless
Bassa - a union who wants to destroy the life and pensions of those working now and those retired
Bassa - a union who wish to destroy the lives of thousands upon thousands who are providing a service to BA (catering, engineering, BAA and many, many more)
Bassa are not a Union - Unions are there to look after the working person. This is not what Bassa want.
I am not alone in my beliefs.
Yours most sincerely,
Hval
EDIT - for clarification
You all seem to think that you have something special (basic medical training, survival, fire fighting, languages, customer care, annual medicals etc.).
Three words - you don't.
I work for an organisation considerably larger than BA. We have all the above and more. Many, many organisations have similar skill sets. Our training was considerably more strenuous than anything you went through. Then there are those with military training. Oh yes we have certificates as well.
The organisations I have experienced are nothing special. When I say fire fighting I do not mean your basic training, but real training - aircraft, submarines, ships, oil and gas platforms, buildings, oil and gas pipe lines, proper medical training, because you are in a jungle, a desert or on a ship.
I would be willing to work for BA for three weeks for nothing (other than food, accommodation etc) just so that I could take part in the destruction of something so evil, selfish, greedy and many, many more rude words as Bassa.
Bassa - who have stated they are willing to destroy BA
Bassa - a union that wants to make 40,000 unemployed, to destroy the livelihoods of employees , their partners and their children
Bassa - a union that wants to make thousands homeless
Bassa - a union who wants to destroy the life and pensions of those working now and those retired
Bassa - a union who wish to destroy the lives of thousands upon thousands who are providing a service to BA (catering, engineering, BAA and many, many more)
Bassa are not a Union - Unions are there to look after the working person. This is not what Bassa want.
I am not alone in my beliefs.
Yours most sincerely,
Hval
EDIT - for clarification
Last edited by hval; 18th Jan 2010 at 19:00.
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Can I just make an observation that there is almost no chance that " David Stainer" is a BA manager. I know people have mixed feelings about BA managers, but I haven't met any that would be that openly obnoxious!
I would bet you dollars to donuts that "David Stainer" is in fact a scared, militant CC member, trying to whip up anti-mgmt feeling amongst crew and pilots, and I for one won't be falling for it.
One word - Troll.
I would bet you dollars to donuts that "David Stainer" is in fact a scared, militant CC member, trying to whip up anti-mgmt feeling amongst crew and pilots, and I for one won't be falling for it.
One word - Troll.
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And, MissM, if you actually thought about it, instead of just parroting the four words off in the "correct" order, you might come to realise that putting location first would be a perfectly acceptable way of addressing a survival problem.
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For what it is worth, the current turnaround time estimated for a criminal record disclosure is 3 days. Getting an airside pass shouldn't be a problem with a small amount of forward planning.
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So many managers are looking forward to taking charge of the aircraft and if there are to be 8 or 9 of us onboard plus cabin crew to the pax stuff then it should be a success.
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MissM,
I'm sorry but your safety "worries" smack of a tired and panicky BASSA line and won't hold water. I did more survival training than you require for your job when I was at school in the CCF. If half of the crew have to have 3 months experience for safety reasons, then with the (at least) 4,000 they have already, it equates to (at least) 8,000 if you add volunteers.
AND it isn't much of a stretch to offer a 30, 60, or even 90 day (ring any bells?) contract to any of the thousands of unemployed FlyGlobeSpan, BMI, etc, crew who have only recently been laid off. (Think Post Office).
Why don't you just admit Willie Walsh has totally outflanked you (with help from the clueless Malone and accompanying sycophants), and realise that you can actually gauge from the level of support it gets internally just how selfish and irrelevant BASSA have become to today's BA.
Willie Walsh said he isn't going to let Unite RUIN the airline. I think you can read between the lines and infer that he isn't going to let BASSA RUN it any more, either.
Unite can get their YES votes in now, I don't think anyone cares any more.
If Wicked Willie gets sufficient support from non-striking CC and volunteers, and there are enough unemployed/pool CC to walk straight in, then the 90 terminations are probably already going in the envelopes and being franked.
I can't wait to see how long BASSA can try and spin this one out now that people are staring unemployment in the face.
I'm sorry but your safety "worries" smack of a tired and panicky BASSA line and won't hold water. I did more survival training than you require for your job when I was at school in the CCF. If half of the crew have to have 3 months experience for safety reasons, then with the (at least) 4,000 they have already, it equates to (at least) 8,000 if you add volunteers.
AND it isn't much of a stretch to offer a 30, 60, or even 90 day (ring any bells?) contract to any of the thousands of unemployed FlyGlobeSpan, BMI, etc, crew who have only recently been laid off. (Think Post Office).
Why don't you just admit Willie Walsh has totally outflanked you (with help from the clueless Malone and accompanying sycophants), and realise that you can actually gauge from the level of support it gets internally just how selfish and irrelevant BASSA have become to today's BA.
Willie Walsh said he isn't going to let Unite RUIN the airline. I think you can read between the lines and infer that he isn't going to let BASSA RUN it any more, either.
Unite can get their YES votes in now, I don't think anyone cares any more.
If Wicked Willie gets sufficient support from non-striking CC and volunteers, and there are enough unemployed/pool CC to walk straight in, then the 90 terminations are probably already going in the envelopes and being franked.
I can't wait to see how long BASSA can try and spin this one out now that people are staring unemployment in the face.
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Two-Tone-Blue
Acceptable for LGW crew?
Would you explain why in that case the majority of them are on transfer lists to both EF and WW fleets at LHR? And, why are there so few of crew on transfer lists TO LGW?
LGW sold them down the river a couple of years ago.
"Our" terms and conditions? The ones that are acceptable for LGW crews but not at LHR? When there is no fiscal penalty to current CC? How are your T&C changed? Oh, yes, the CSD is required to do a bit more work. Full stop.
Would you explain why in that case the majority of them are on transfer lists to both EF and WW fleets at LHR? And, why are there so few of crew on transfer lists TO LGW?
LGW sold them down the river a couple of years ago.
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This is what we are taught at BA! And, if you put it in a different order they would fail you!
However its condensed into a simple 4 word phrase so that you can remeber it easily and can put your tick next to the correct answer in a multi choice SEP exam.
Just because you can recite "Pilots like wet fanny, protection, location water, food" like a parrot doesnt automatically mean you could hack it in a survival situation in a hostile environment. Actually being able to come up with a plan of action when you couldn't find a few sticks and a bit of old canvas to make a tent out of though, might just save the day.
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David,
The commander is legally, that means by law, in charge of the airplane. In case of any disagreement he will have the final say. If you disobey a legal command by the captain, you will find yourself dragged of the airplane and subsequently in court.
Not history book, LAW book
One thing I agree with you. Times they are a changing indeed...
The commander is legally, that means by law, in charge of the airplane. In case of any disagreement he will have the final say. If you disobey a legal command by the captain, you will find yourself dragged of the airplane and subsequently in court.
Not history book, LAW book
One thing I agree with you. Times they are a changing indeed...
Last edited by Dutchjock; 18th Jan 2010 at 18:59. Reason: Afterthought
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@ MissM, who sent me some very moderate PMs a week of so ago.
1. It is possible [indeed guaranteed] that I have had more Survival Training than you have. The prospect of surviving a mid-Atlantic landing is realistically ZERO, at which point I doubt that your advanced door-opening skills will be relevant. [Expecting to be banned again]
2. I'm missing where the 'militant CC are jeopardising safety'. Of course they are not. They are just screwing up customers travel plans, driving them away from BA, and actually doing the Company nothing but damage. Period.
Maybe you would get Golden Ticket on your flight. He, assuming Golden Ticket is he, who didn't even know the correct order of Protection, Location, Water and Food (basics!). It's amusing when you think that the easiest way to remember it is to learn this this short phrase: Pilots Like Wet Fish. For being a militant CC, do you think we are jeopardising safety? That's nothing but an insult.
2. I'm missing where the 'militant CC are jeopardising safety'. Of course they are not. They are just screwing up customers travel plans, driving them away from BA, and actually doing the Company nothing but damage. Period.
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Hi David Stanier / Troll
I'll accept that the second you can provide me with a reference to back up your claim. I know where it says that the Skipper is legally in charge of the aircraft and it's crew - it's in JPM's.
If you can't provide anything legal or official to back up your claim, then I'd suggest you retire from the debate.
We are BA Managers
Nutjob I dont know where you are coming from but BA is changing and all the old rules and concept of who is in charge etc are now changing. BA employs Managers to manage and that is what we do and will be doing. All this who is in charge stuff is one for the history books now. We will work together and any disagreement will result in a BA Manager taking the final decision.
Times are a changing !
Nutjob I dont know where you are coming from but BA is changing and all the old rules and concept of who is in charge etc are now changing. BA employs Managers to manage and that is what we do and will be doing. All this who is in charge stuff is one for the history books now. We will work together and any disagreement will result in a BA Manager taking the final decision.
Times are a changing !
If you can't provide anything legal or official to back up your claim, then I'd suggest you retire from the debate.
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Desertia
You are of course free to your opinion but my opinion is not of a panicking kind and definitely not something BASSA has told me to say. It's not realistic that flights will depart with volunteers. I'm sorry and I don't think it will happen.
This is nothing but a PR trick from WW to turn everyone against us and show that everyone else in BA are the good guys and BA cabin crew are the bad guys. It's nothing more complicated than that.
GearUp CheerUp
Please don't call me love.
I still stand by what I wrote and that it should be prioritised in that order in any survival situation.
You are of course free to your opinion but my opinion is not of a panicking kind and definitely not something BASSA has told me to say. It's not realistic that flights will depart with volunteers. I'm sorry and I don't think it will happen.
This is nothing but a PR trick from WW to turn everyone against us and show that everyone else in BA are the good guys and BA cabin crew are the bad guys. It's nothing more complicated than that.
GearUp CheerUp
Please don't call me love.
I still stand by what I wrote and that it should be prioritised in that order in any survival situation.
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the Dubliner will go down in history as the man who took two national airlines to the brink of collapse.
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Who on earth told you that? I recently waited 3 months for one to coach a kids football team! And as Cabin Crew they require enhanced checks
The normal turnaround time is 6 wks approx but it can be done quicker.
The actual processing time is minimal it is the backlog of applications that slows it down.
It is not a lot of different to getting a passport in a hurry.
Rest assured that BA management have already made arrangements with the Scotland Disclousre office (hope i got name right, its a few years since i dealt with them) to rush through applications, and the pass centre in HRW to postpone issuing all renewals for a number of weeks and if needed to extend all current passes due for renewal by 30 or 60 days to facilitate BA.
The normal turnaround time is 6 wks approx but it can be done quicker.
The actual processing time is minimal it is the backlog of applications that slows it down.
It is not a lot of different to getting a passport in a hurry.
Rest assured that BA management have already made arrangements with the Scotland Disclousre office (hope i got name right, its a few years since i dealt with them) to rush through applications, and the pass centre in HRW to postpone issuing all renewals for a number of weeks and if needed to extend all current passes due for renewal by 30 or 60 days to facilitate BA.
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I am a believer in all people being entitled to an opinion - you have yours I and 9000 of my colleagues have ours.
This airline is in terminal decline - the Dubliner will go down in history as the man who took two national airlines to the brink of collapse.
This airline is in terminal decline - the Dubliner will go down in history as the man who took two national airlines to the brink of collapse.
2. Your 9000 colleagues [didn't that used to be 12,000?] are fully entitled to their view, of course. As are/will be the millions of pax who forego flying with BA due to uncertainty.
3. "The airline is in terminal decline" ... why is that? Please elaborate, because that's important.
4. If the "Dubliner" is so wonderful, why don't you work for him on lower wages, and at the same time fly me from UK to USA?
5. Why do you hate BA so much?
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Hi A Lurker,
Sorry my bad, I thought a basic disclosure was sufficient for CC. The enhanced check indeed takes circa 4 weeks - I wonder if it can be expedited at all?
Sorry my bad, I thought a basic disclosure was sufficient for CC. The enhanced check indeed takes circa 4 weeks - I wonder if it can be expedited at all?
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Pilots could be responsible for doors but do they have any medical training? Any survival training?
In my previous life I had far, far, far more medical training than you have ever received and please don't even try to tell me that what you receive at Braincrank is survival training.
Oh Purrrrlease.
Possibility of someone being able to do your job when you throw your hissy fits? Unthinkable? Think again.