British Airways - CC Industrial Relations Mk V
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Just so anyone who is Groundstaff and are willing to Volunteer as Cabin crew while we're on strike just be aware that Part of the reason we're trying to protect our Terms and conditions which in the future will protect yours as Part of Willie's plans for Cabin crew in the future is to have cabin crew performing Ground staffs duties which I think is very worrying for us all.
I got this information from the proposed changes document which BA presented to the Trade union during the last round of negotiations. It states I quote.
"Headline Changes"
*New Mixed flying both long and short haul to increase productivity from the start up
*New single supervisory grade on both Long and shorthaul
*All crew have clearly defined objectives
*Direct entry Cabin service Managers
*No seniority
*Simplified operating rules including
Working hours based on scheme &
ROSTERED GROUND DUTIES
Also further down the document it says
"Use ground time more effectively by performing Ground duties pre & Post flight"
The document goes on and on but hidden within it there are many little gems that could come back to bite our ground colleagues, so more now then ever we need to stand together to protect our jobs because if Willie gets his way you'll be next on his list!
I got this info from
http://www.bassa.co.uk/bassa/downloa...TUCv5combi.pdf
If you want to see the counter proposal by BASSA I have pasted the link below which you will see is more than acceptable.
http://www.bassa.co.uk/bassa/downloa...rwardcombi.pdf
Also people what information which has been released to the press and by BA isn't giving you the full picture.
We don't want more pay, we have offered a pay freeze and temporary pay reduction and meal rate freeze which have all been refused by BA. These alone would have saved BA around 55 Million quid. As a comparison the Pilots deal which is only going to save BA 26 Million was accepted also in 2 years time the Pilots will receive Shares in the Company and also there pay will be realigned to where it would have been if they hadn't had it reduced in the first place. If this really was a fight for survival they would have bitten our hands off straight away but there is more to this than you realise, this is about Breaking the Union once and for all. We understand we're in a recession and we all have to shoulder the burden but not at the expense that once the recession is over and the Fat cats are receiving massive bonuses the rest of us will be on the breadline. We are all prepared to tighten our belts knuckle down during the hard times but why should we all benefit when the good times return?
I got this information from the proposed changes document which BA presented to the Trade union during the last round of negotiations. It states I quote.
"Headline Changes"
*New Mixed flying both long and short haul to increase productivity from the start up
*New single supervisory grade on both Long and shorthaul
*All crew have clearly defined objectives
*Direct entry Cabin service Managers
*No seniority
*Simplified operating rules including
Working hours based on scheme &
ROSTERED GROUND DUTIES
Also further down the document it says
"Use ground time more effectively by performing Ground duties pre & Post flight"
The document goes on and on but hidden within it there are many little gems that could come back to bite our ground colleagues, so more now then ever we need to stand together to protect our jobs because if Willie gets his way you'll be next on his list!
I got this info from
http://www.bassa.co.uk/bassa/downloa...TUCv5combi.pdf
If you want to see the counter proposal by BASSA I have pasted the link below which you will see is more than acceptable.
http://www.bassa.co.uk/bassa/downloa...rwardcombi.pdf
Also people what information which has been released to the press and by BA isn't giving you the full picture.
We don't want more pay, we have offered a pay freeze and temporary pay reduction and meal rate freeze which have all been refused by BA. These alone would have saved BA around 55 Million quid. As a comparison the Pilots deal which is only going to save BA 26 Million was accepted also in 2 years time the Pilots will receive Shares in the Company and also there pay will be realigned to where it would have been if they hadn't had it reduced in the first place. If this really was a fight for survival they would have bitten our hands off straight away but there is more to this than you realise, this is about Breaking the Union once and for all. We understand we're in a recession and we all have to shoulder the burden but not at the expense that once the recession is over and the Fat cats are receiving massive bonuses the rest of us will be on the breadline. We are all prepared to tighten our belts knuckle down during the hard times but why should we all benefit when the good times return?
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"Around, like an ever-spinning wheel .... the circles of my mind"
This 'debate' isn't actually going anywhere, is it?
Voting is free. But the consequences of those votes will have massive impact, whichever way it turns out. It seems to me such a tragic exercise in pointless IA.
This 'debate' isn't actually going anywhere, is it?
- The militants are furious because, after their "Union" failed to negotiate, change are being imposed anyway - at NO FINANCIAL COST to the individual.
- The loyalists are doing everything they can to keep BA afloat/airborne including volunteering to help as CC.
- The passengers (those people who pay the money to keep everyone in a job) are going ABBA.
Voting is free. But the consequences of those votes will have massive impact, whichever way it turns out. It seems to me such a tragic exercise in pointless IA.
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It seems UNITE are hell bent on upsetting everyone, BALPA, The High Court, it is the CAA's turn now I see:
"Unite also regards it as extremely concerning that an employer can co-opt a regulator into its efforts to break its workforce. The CAA's duty to this country and its taxpayers is to ensure our aviation sector upholds the highest standards. It is not to conspire in the provision of half-baked courses for wannabe cabin crew."
I wonder if UNITE is the most apt name for this union?
Source : Unite web site : http://www.unitetheunion.com/news__events/latest_news/bas_handful_of_strike_breaker.aspx?lang=en-gb
"Unite also regards it as extremely concerning that an employer can co-opt a regulator into its efforts to break its workforce. The CAA's duty to this country and its taxpayers is to ensure our aviation sector upholds the highest standards. It is not to conspire in the provision of half-baked courses for wannabe cabin crew."
I wonder if UNITE is the most apt name for this union?
Source : Unite web site : http://www.unitetheunion.com/news__events/latest_news/bas_handful_of_strike_breaker.aspx?lang=en-gb
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A little light reading
Here is a link to an interesting (to me anyway)article on the situation within Unite and it's links to our revered Prime Minister.
Charlie Whelan’s war | The Spectator
Charlie Whelan’s war | The Spectator
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BASSA2010 wrote (amongst other tripe):
Hmmm, not my recollection.
(1) Shares in the company will only be available subject to target profitability.
(2) These shares were made available to all staff groups, if they signed up to cetain conditions (shares potentially lost if striking) - guess BASSA didn't
(3) there (sic) pay will be realigned to where it would have been - untrue.
Yet another example of BASSA lies from another troll.
I'll leave others to judge .....
As a comparison the Pilots deal which is only going to save BA 26 Million was accepted also in 2 years time the Pilots will receive Shares in the Company and also there pay will be realigned to where it would have been if they hadn't had it reduced in the first place.
(1) Shares in the company will only be available subject to target profitability.
(2) These shares were made available to all staff groups, if they signed up to cetain conditions (shares potentially lost if striking) - guess BASSA didn't
(3) there (sic) pay will be realigned to where it would have been - untrue.
Yet another example of BASSA lies from another troll.
I'll leave others to judge .....
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BABBS
Like so many, you are SERIOUSLY misinformed, yet you seem to be sure that what BASSA tell you is right! I would have hoped more of our crew would be capable to do their own research instead of believing everything they're told.. very sad indeed.
Start by reading the BA proposals themselves, not the way they were obviously spun by the union, and then re-read your own post. It will all make a lot more sense.
Such as ground duties, only for the new managing role. More responsibility will require ground work. It doesn't state anywhere you will be working in the terminals as interpreted by yourself. Read it again...
Also, as pointed out above, your story about the pilots is completely inaccurate. We already earn market rate +10% so not much needed to be saved from us as from you (earning market rate +90% on average)... Make sense?
Start by reading the BA proposals themselves, not the way they were obviously spun by the union, and then re-read your own post. It will all make a lot more sense.
Such as ground duties, only for the new managing role. More responsibility will require ground work. It doesn't state anywhere you will be working in the terminals as interpreted by yourself. Read it again...
Also, as pointed out above, your story about the pilots is completely inaccurate. We already earn market rate +10% so not much needed to be saved from us as from you (earning market rate +90% on average)... Make sense?
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The union does seem to spin things. In BAs last proposals in the summer, it said ''better ground productivity'' - all of a sudden BASSA was whipping crew into a frenzy on the forums with crew saying, ''I'm not working in the terminals on my days off''. 
This is how I interpret ground work - CSMs (Customer Service Manager/SCCMs) will do 2 days work managing on the ground working with the managers on the ground. NOT working on check in or anything. Some airlines like ANZ and I think Virgin might (not sure) already do this with their Incharge crew members.
This is how I interpret ground work - CSMs (Customer Service Manager/SCCMs) will do 2 days work managing on the ground working with the managers on the ground. NOT working on check in or anything. Some airlines like ANZ and I think Virgin might (not sure) already do this with their Incharge crew members.
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The devil is always in the detail, but I can at least see where BA is coming from with its New Fleet proposals. BA's current pay system of variable allowances depending on route is illogical and a lot of BA's proposals for New Fleet are pretty standard in business now:
- Flatter supervisory/management layers has been the standard for corporates for decades.
- Rewarding individuals for performance and contribution to the business and not for length of service is the standard in almost all businesses as is providing rapid promotion prospects for new talent (or "emerging leaders" as they're called by HR departments).
- You only pay above market rate for above market performance. I personally do work for a company that pays at the top end of the market and they make so secret of the fact that you are out of the door if you do not meet high performance standards.
- A reasonable degree of attrition is healthy for providing new blood and not "managing out" (another HR term) dissatisified employees is bad for business
- Flatter supervisory/management layers has been the standard for corporates for decades.
- Rewarding individuals for performance and contribution to the business and not for length of service is the standard in almost all businesses as is providing rapid promotion prospects for new talent (or "emerging leaders" as they're called by HR departments).
- You only pay above market rate for above market performance. I personally do work for a company that pays at the top end of the market and they make so secret of the fact that you are out of the door if you do not meet high performance standards.
- A reasonable degree of attrition is healthy for providing new blood and not "managing out" (another HR term) dissatisified employees is bad for business
Last edited by LD12986; 25th Jan 2010 at 21:27.
Couldonlyaffordafiver
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A quick recap of the Unite/BASSA position:
PriceWaterhouseCooper are in the pay of BA because they didn't tell BASSA what they wanted to hear. The fact that BASSA reps weren't prepared to sign the appropriate confidentiality agreements to see the necessary financial information speaks volumes.
Judge Cox is in the pay of BA because she judged against BASSA.
Civil Aviation Authority are in the pay of BA because they are permitting BA to use volunteers as cabin crew, despite BA adhering to the regulatory requirements for cabin crew training.
BALPA are in the pay of BA because they are remaining "neutral" and are allowing their membership to think for themselves with regard to BA's request for volunteer cabin crew.
Willie Walsh is in the pay of BA because .... oh, wait a minute. He's supposed to be.
Have I missed anyone? There is a definite pattern here as anyone with more than a single figure IQ will agree.
So what is the strike about?
Officially, imposition of new working practices (generally, one less crewmember and the CSD gains a working position). Unofficially .... could be anything. Unofficially, word of mouth says it's about New Fleet but if that was the official reason, as it hasn't happened yet, the strike would be illegal.
So what is the reason for the strike on the ballot paper? On the last one, there was no specific reason given other than a side of A4s worth of spiel, none of which was specific.
What's the question on the latest ballot?
PriceWaterhouseCooper are in the pay of BA because they didn't tell BASSA what they wanted to hear. The fact that BASSA reps weren't prepared to sign the appropriate confidentiality agreements to see the necessary financial information speaks volumes.
Judge Cox is in the pay of BA because she judged against BASSA.
Civil Aviation Authority are in the pay of BA because they are permitting BA to use volunteers as cabin crew, despite BA adhering to the regulatory requirements for cabin crew training.
BALPA are in the pay of BA because they are remaining "neutral" and are allowing their membership to think for themselves with regard to BA's request for volunteer cabin crew.
Willie Walsh is in the pay of BA because .... oh, wait a minute. He's supposed to be.
Have I missed anyone? There is a definite pattern here as anyone with more than a single figure IQ will agree.
So what is the strike about?
Officially, imposition of new working practices (generally, one less crewmember and the CSD gains a working position). Unofficially .... could be anything. Unofficially, word of mouth says it's about New Fleet but if that was the official reason, as it hasn't happened yet, the strike would be illegal.
So what is the reason for the strike on the ballot paper? On the last one, there was no specific reason given other than a side of A4s worth of spiel, none of which was specific.
What's the question on the latest ballot?
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CSMs (Customer Service Manager/SCCMs) will do 2 days work managing on the ground working with the managers on the ground.
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A quick recap of the Unite/BASSA position:
PriceWaterhouseCooper are in the pay of BA because they didn't tell BASSA what they wanted to hear. The fact that BASSA reps weren't prepared to sign the appropriate confidentiality agreements to see the necessary financial information speaks volumes.
Judge Cox is in the pay of BA because she judged against BASSA.
Civil Aviation Authority are in the pay of BA because they are permitting BA to use volunteers as cabin crew, despite BA adhering to the regulatory requirements for cabin crew training.
BALPA are in the pay of BA because they are remaining "neutral" and are allowing their membership to think for themselves with regard to BA's request for volunteer cabin crew.
Willie Walsh is in the pay of BA because .... oh, wait a minute. He's supposed to be.
Have I missed anyone? There is a definite pattern here as anyone with more than a single figure IQ will agree.
So what is the strike about?
PriceWaterhouseCooper are in the pay of BA because they didn't tell BASSA what they wanted to hear. The fact that BASSA reps weren't prepared to sign the appropriate confidentiality agreements to see the necessary financial information speaks volumes.
Judge Cox is in the pay of BA because she judged against BASSA.
Civil Aviation Authority are in the pay of BA because they are permitting BA to use volunteers as cabin crew, despite BA adhering to the regulatory requirements for cabin crew training.
BALPA are in the pay of BA because they are remaining "neutral" and are allowing their membership to think for themselves with regard to BA's request for volunteer cabin crew.
Willie Walsh is in the pay of BA because .... oh, wait a minute. He's supposed to be.
Have I missed anyone? There is a definite pattern here as anyone with more than a single figure IQ will agree.
So what is the strike about?
- All the newspapers are in the pay of BA
- All main TV/Radio channels
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Originally Posted by ottergirl
We used to have Fleet Directors who did that job but it was decided that it wasn't an effective way of managing our crew.
In theory, the Fleet Director is broadly equivalent to the Flight Manager. He or she still flies a limited roster (pilot managers fly one or two trips a month) but carries additional management duties which fill the majority of his or her time.
With regard to the Flight Managers, I have to concede there are inevitable issues but the fact that these guys fly the line reasonably regularly and are familiar with the day to day operational issues is invaluable.
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You've missed:
* All the newspapers are in the pay of BA
* All main TV/Radio channels
* All the newspapers are in the pay of BA
* All main TV/Radio channels
This union, and it's "parent" are despicable. And they are panicking because they are about to take it where the sun doesn't shine.
I feel desperately sorry for the CC that are swallowing all of their nonsense.
Come on Wicked Willie. Finish these people off. Feb 1st is the day that really matters. Let the games begin. I take no pleasure from this, a 44 year old pax died two days ago and was used as a pawn in their pathetic game.
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You have a point ottergirl. I suppose what you mean with reagrds to DPA is having access to confidential files for crew and then let's say next day flying with a few crew who are actually on the CSM/CSDs ''team''. Also there could be problems with IFAs, ie. favouritism of crew that are in their team.
It does sound a good idea as it allows ground management to have some experience flying and also managers on the ground also managing crew in the air.
I have heard about ''CSDX'' but wasn't really sure what it meant - guess it means this then??
Back to the rest of BA's proposal.... Some of it isn't great I agree but there is so much room for Unite to meet BA as much of it is agreeable. I don't know why Unite are so far from agreeing with BA. Unite's proposal obviously will not save enough many. As for capping the amount of First pax in order to change the crew complements - what the heck???? That is a ridiculous suggestion. Do we really need 4 crew on every 319 flight. OK maybe CDG etc but not all surely. I do however think having a PSR down the back on Band 4 would be a benefit.
There is so much room for agreement and compromise. On both sides, Unite just need to pull their finger out and get real and BA need to see the concerns of us crew and just accept some safeguards to protect us current crew. I know BA have already done so with saying they have offered us certain things FMTP, matrix of routes to transfer to New Fleet. There really doesn't need to be a strike.
BASSA keep saying we must vote Yes as this is the last chance we will get to do so - they are right in saying that - if we all go on strike this may be the last time we will have BASSA - and BA and our jobs!
It does sound a good idea as it allows ground management to have some experience flying and also managers on the ground also managing crew in the air.
I have heard about ''CSDX'' but wasn't really sure what it meant - guess it means this then??
Back to the rest of BA's proposal.... Some of it isn't great I agree but there is so much room for Unite to meet BA as much of it is agreeable. I don't know why Unite are so far from agreeing with BA. Unite's proposal obviously will not save enough many. As for capping the amount of First pax in order to change the crew complements - what the heck???? That is a ridiculous suggestion. Do we really need 4 crew on every 319 flight. OK maybe CDG etc but not all surely. I do however think having a PSR down the back on Band 4 would be a benefit.
There is so much room for agreement and compromise. On both sides, Unite just need to pull their finger out and get real and BA need to see the concerns of us crew and just accept some safeguards to protect us current crew. I know BA have already done so with saying they have offered us certain things FMTP, matrix of routes to transfer to New Fleet. There really doesn't need to be a strike.
BASSA keep saying we must vote Yes as this is the last chance we will get to do so - they are right in saying that - if we all go on strike this may be the last time we will have BASSA - and BA and our jobs!
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interesting
Thanks for this makes interesting reading and thanks to whoever posted it.
http://www.bassa.co.uk/bassa/downloa...TUCv5combi.pdf
This I believe was BA`s opening gambit
They later came back with a counter proposal for current crew. Can anyone remember or post what it was?
I think some of the promises and assurances were that the new fleet would not be introduced until an upturn in traffic and return to pre 2009 routes. No change to double nights down route, I see also the proposals for terms and working conditons for the new fleet was also to be negotiated.
So where are we (BASSA v BA) now apart from the impositon of 1 crew member less which will be decide by the courts on 1 Feb?
I must say it`s no wonder some crew are confused as to the outstanding issues.
http://www.bassa.co.uk/bassa/downloa...TUCv5combi.pdf
This I believe was BA`s opening gambit
They later came back with a counter proposal for current crew. Can anyone remember or post what it was?
I think some of the promises and assurances were that the new fleet would not be introduced until an upturn in traffic and return to pre 2009 routes. No change to double nights down route, I see also the proposals for terms and working conditons for the new fleet was also to be negotiated.
So where are we (BASSA v BA) now apart from the impositon of 1 crew member less which will be decide by the courts on 1 Feb?
I must say it`s no wonder some crew are confused as to the outstanding issues.
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During the aborted Dec strike the cc managers rang around asking who was prepared to work. Presumably these same crew would work this time as well. Adding these guys/girls along with non union crew plus the volunteers must add up to several thousand at least.
These several thousand could all be rostered on the first few days of any proposed strike thereby allowing a totally normal service to be run. This would be very embarrassing for BASSA and create huge doubt in the minds of those rostered several days into the strike on whether to strike or not.
There is obviously a large range of ways that BA can use the available cc to its maximum advantage and BASSAs embarrassment.
Regards
These several thousand could all be rostered on the first few days of any proposed strike thereby allowing a totally normal service to be run. This would be very embarrassing for BASSA and create huge doubt in the minds of those rostered several days into the strike on whether to strike or not.
There is obviously a large range of ways that BA can use the available cc to its maximum advantage and BASSAs embarrassment.
Regards