British Airways - CC Industrial Relations & Negotiations
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NODELAY
I think had you read my post correctly you would have seen that i was actually sacrificing my salary NOT to strike.
ALSO CC NEVER went on strike to support the catering strike. ( But hey why let fact get in the way of a dramatic statement!)
ALSO CC NEVER went on strike to support the catering strike. ( But hey why let fact get in the way of a dramatic statement!)
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AGAIN this is about imposition
Remember they had NEGOTIATED with BASSA for 9 months. In those 9 months BA made countless suggestions of how savings could be made. BA also offered a share plan to CC as a sweetner to agree a deal - it also offered further free travel tickets on BA to further sweeten the deal. BASSA said no.
BASSA could have made any savings that they wanted - provided they met the target set by BA - the only solution offered by BASSA fell very short, so that was not an option (and this was known to BASSA in July).
BA then surveyed the CC to see what sort of solution they wanted (this may have been a good starting place for the union). The result was that the CC DID NOT want a salary cut, or an allowance cut, and did not want people made compulsory redundant.
How did BASSA help the members?
Remember all along BA said that it would impose changes if the union did not agree to any.
9 months later - and 9 months of loosing over £1 million per day, BA has no choice but to make changes or there is a real risk of its business model failing.
What did BA do? - It gave the CC what they wanted - NO PAY CUT and all redundancies were voluntary. Any other worker on planet earth would jump at a solution like this?
BASSA have set out to do just 1 thing and that is to take on the BA Directors at all cost. They don't serve their members, and they don't take any precautions along the way (2 lost court cases in 2 months).
It is now becoming clear to every BASSA member what BASSA is all about. Their solution was to ballot for a strike, which they told you would get BA back to the negoating table - really what BASSA had in mind was ruining Christmas for 1 million passangers and potentially bankrupting BA - how does this help BASSA members - is it what you voted for?
When the union tries to educate you further please remember the screw up in court, which the BASSA chair was central in.
You might not like the idea of BA imposing a change but what are you offering as an alternative given the reality is BA is loosing money.
Do you still believe all the crap BASSA feed you now, given their performance over the last week?.
So what is the alternative to the imposition - you complain about it so much you must have an answer?, but in 303 pages I have yet to read one.
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This isn't, as much as we'd wish it, anywhere near done and dusted. I note that on CrewForum those self-same voices that applauded BASSA for their wit and intelligence are now deriding Unite for the failure of the ballot at the injunction, and therein lies the problem. No matter what errors Malone, Holley et al make, no matter who much information they choose not to share with their membership, no matter how many fliers they send out, the truth is the membership is unwilling to see BASSA as able to do any wrong whatsoever.
The same mindless juggernaut is already rolling into action that led us to where we are today. Anyone who dares to criticise the actions of BASSA in leading the crew to such a position of vilification and, ultimately, defeat in the high court, has been shot down in flames for being (as ever) a manager, a pilot, a spy. Even when those criticisms have been moderately posited and well argued. Let alone the even more extreme suggestions that Justice Cox was somehow bought by BA or a part of a conspiratorial and corrupt judiciary.
The child-like tendency to blame everyone but themselves for their woes will lead us again and again to the strike option as the self-righteousness allows for no other option than to carry on with their perceived moral crusade to oust the evil CEO and his henchmen.
So, perhaps, when this one is over, the real question is how do we change the fundamental disconnect in employee/employer relations in the airline? It's evident on here from a number of postings that there are some moderate, passionate and forward-thinking crew who, I'd fervently hope to believe, represent a future style of industrial relations in BA. Because, and I'm as sure of this as I can be of anything, to continue in this manner of BASSA saying no to absolutely everything will leave BA as nothing more than a small chapter in the history of civil aviation.
I'll never know the answer to this, and nor will those who quote the 92+% result at me, but I wonder how many crew voted yes in hope and anticipation of "sending a message" and wouldn't have held fast in the face of the strike had it been ruled legal? It's those that anyone wishing to effect change in BASSA or that which comes after it need to reach out to and offer a modern style of representation that works in partnership with the employer and not in constant combat.
Will it happen or are we just waiting for the tarpit to swallow our bloated corpse?
Ironically, the future really is in our hands.
MrB
The same mindless juggernaut is already rolling into action that led us to where we are today. Anyone who dares to criticise the actions of BASSA in leading the crew to such a position of vilification and, ultimately, defeat in the high court, has been shot down in flames for being (as ever) a manager, a pilot, a spy. Even when those criticisms have been moderately posited and well argued. Let alone the even more extreme suggestions that Justice Cox was somehow bought by BA or a part of a conspiratorial and corrupt judiciary.
The child-like tendency to blame everyone but themselves for their woes will lead us again and again to the strike option as the self-righteousness allows for no other option than to carry on with their perceived moral crusade to oust the evil CEO and his henchmen.
So, perhaps, when this one is over, the real question is how do we change the fundamental disconnect in employee/employer relations in the airline? It's evident on here from a number of postings that there are some moderate, passionate and forward-thinking crew who, I'd fervently hope to believe, represent a future style of industrial relations in BA. Because, and I'm as sure of this as I can be of anything, to continue in this manner of BASSA saying no to absolutely everything will leave BA as nothing more than a small chapter in the history of civil aviation.
I'll never know the answer to this, and nor will those who quote the 92+% result at me, but I wonder how many crew voted yes in hope and anticipation of "sending a message" and wouldn't have held fast in the face of the strike had it been ruled legal? It's those that anyone wishing to effect change in BASSA or that which comes after it need to reach out to and offer a modern style of representation that works in partnership with the employer and not in constant combat.
Will it happen or are we just waiting for the tarpit to swallow our bloated corpse?
Ironically, the future really is in our hands.
MrB
Last edited by MrBunker; 17th Dec 2009 at 19:43.
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Oh dear oh dear oh dear.
It seems it was your own Bassa reps that screwed this one up!
All this guff from Derek Simpson saying they had done everything they could to comply with "every dot and comma" - total and utter bull! And he was sat there in court listening to the judgement, maybe he didn't understand the bit where the judge was quite clear that they had in no way at all done all that was reasonably practicable, and that there was no evidence to suggest that.
Miss Malone got lots of special mentions, and her "legally flawed" forum post, that she took a whole 3 mins to come up with has totally ruined BASSAs chances. Even the judge apparently mentioned several times in her summing up.
Steve Turners witness statement was 'called in to question' when emails with totally conflicting evidence was submitted showing that the Bassa reps knew the numbers of people leaving under VR. Brilliant.
Mr Marley also had a starring role, with his witness statement Unite produced for their defence being leapt upon with glee by the BA QC, as they were trying to argue they didnt understand the spreadsheet that BA had given them to show people leaving. In his own statement, Marley said that he had worked with the spreadsheets before when working in HR when off sick, and it was 'easy to track crew' that were leaving. Genius.
Literally all it would have taken for Bassa to have won, and be going out on strike in a few days, is for them to send a text out saying "dont vote if you are leaving on VR" , send out 1 email, put one post on the forum, or include a note on the ballot paper. That is it, all that needed to be done. Even after BA notified them that there was a problem, they could have sorted it, and been shown to be reasonable in court.
To be fair to Hendy QC, there was not much he could do, because BASSAs bungling reps had totally scuppered their own action, and the best bit is, there was no need. If they thought crew would support them so much, as they did it turns out, there was no need to try and get 800 extra votes from VR. No one knows why they didn't try and get the message out for these people not to vote. Far from being a Catch22, they would have been shown to be reasonable.
BASSA reps have a lot of questions to answer, especially Liz Malone, who seems to have done the most to destroy BASSA credibility.
Maybe she was jet-lagged when she posted that forum reply......
It seems it was your own Bassa reps that screwed this one up!
All this guff from Derek Simpson saying they had done everything they could to comply with "every dot and comma" - total and utter bull! And he was sat there in court listening to the judgement, maybe he didn't understand the bit where the judge was quite clear that they had in no way at all done all that was reasonably practicable, and that there was no evidence to suggest that.
Miss Malone got lots of special mentions, and her "legally flawed" forum post, that she took a whole 3 mins to come up with has totally ruined BASSAs chances. Even the judge apparently mentioned several times in her summing up.
Steve Turners witness statement was 'called in to question' when emails with totally conflicting evidence was submitted showing that the Bassa reps knew the numbers of people leaving under VR. Brilliant.
Mr Marley also had a starring role, with his witness statement Unite produced for their defence being leapt upon with glee by the BA QC, as they were trying to argue they didnt understand the spreadsheet that BA had given them to show people leaving. In his own statement, Marley said that he had worked with the spreadsheets before when working in HR when off sick, and it was 'easy to track crew' that were leaving. Genius.
Literally all it would have taken for Bassa to have won, and be going out on strike in a few days, is for them to send a text out saying "dont vote if you are leaving on VR" , send out 1 email, put one post on the forum, or include a note on the ballot paper. That is it, all that needed to be done. Even after BA notified them that there was a problem, they could have sorted it, and been shown to be reasonable in court.
To be fair to Hendy QC, there was not much he could do, because BASSAs bungling reps had totally scuppered their own action, and the best bit is, there was no need. If they thought crew would support them so much, as they did it turns out, there was no need to try and get 800 extra votes from VR. No one knows why they didn't try and get the message out for these people not to vote. Far from being a Catch22, they would have been shown to be reasonable.
BASSA reps have a lot of questions to answer, especially Liz Malone, who seems to have done the most to destroy BASSA credibility.
Maybe she was jet-lagged when she posted that forum reply......
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BA requires £2 billion cash reserves as an operational "float". If reserves dip much below £1 B BA dont have enough cash to maintain an operation. Also, a lot of this cash is from ticket sales, so can't be put into the pension fund.
As for the £200 mill saved from a strike, thats hardly new cash is it??? Thats like being refused a loan to buy a car for 10k, so now you have 10k to spend on new shoes!!!!
As for the £200 mill saved from a strike, thats hardly new cash is it??? Thats like being refused a loan to buy a car for 10k, so now you have 10k to spend on new shoes!!!!
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Has the law on contracts changed? If I sign a contract then I expect all conditions in the contact to be upheld.If I sign a contract to buy a house and then renege on the contract the whole weight of the law would descend on me.Cabin crew have signed contracts and expect them to be upheld.
The rights and wrongs of this dispute have less to do with them than the half wit who drew up the contracts in the first palce. His is the head that should roll and not the employees who have entered into their contracts in good faith.
If the company can cherry pick which parts of the contract they want then why not the employee?
The rights and wrongs of this dispute have less to do with them than the half wit who drew up the contracts in the first palce. His is the head that should roll and not the employees who have entered into their contracts in good faith.
If the company can cherry pick which parts of the contract they want then why not the employee?
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BASSA needs to be consigned to the dustbin. Its lost credibility with its members and is now a positive liability from a PR perspective.
I am NOT a union basher but industrial relations have moved on from the 1970's, Glamgirl etc al - your throughts about setting up a union that will protect their members yet negotiate in a meaningfull manner with your employers is exactly what is needed now.
The degree of bullying and intimindation that I have seen from certain excepts from the crew forum and alas posts from 'the same old names' on here frankly horrify me - thats not democracy, it reminds me of some 70's soviet dependant state and looked what happened to them.
BA are still my airline of choice - and I fly a lot, dont take customer loyalty for granted
I am NOT a union basher but industrial relations have moved on from the 1970's, Glamgirl etc al - your throughts about setting up a union that will protect their members yet negotiate in a meaningfull manner with your employers is exactly what is needed now.
The degree of bullying and intimindation that I have seen from certain excepts from the crew forum and alas posts from 'the same old names' on here frankly horrify me - thats not democracy, it reminds me of some 70's soviet dependant state and looked what happened to them.
BA are still my airline of choice - and I fly a lot, dont take customer loyalty for granted
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ArthurScaghill
This is the story about Miss Malone - she encouraged people who left BA on VR to still vote!
One member over at BASSA forum asked her if crew who would leave BA at end of November could still vote in the ballot - as they would no longer be part of the company at the time of the strike.
Miss Malone said - as long as you are employed when you vote it is ok.
This is the story about Miss Malone - she encouraged people who left BA on VR to still vote!
One member over at BASSA forum asked her if crew who would leave BA at end of November could still vote in the ballot - as they would no longer be part of the company at the time of the strike.
Miss Malone said - as long as you are employed when you vote it is ok.
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IHeartMBT
Cash reserves tends to be slightly misleading, in that it isn't a big pile of money sitting in a high interest account in the Caymans because no-one wants to spend it. Every company has to be able to lay its hands on it in an emergency beyond what they need for day to day. If BA didn't have it, and it lost money such as it has over the last year, it would already be bankrupt. More than that, the board would be prosecuted for a criminal lack of corporate governance if they didn't make absolutely sure there were reserves.
If they dump the money in the pension fund, it vanishes, and then what? They've got no reserve in case of need. I'm sure you can imagine a million scenarios where you might need that, but those are for in dire necessity. Having to deal with the partial or complete shutdown of the company through industrial action really shouldn't be one of them, and it's exactly why it caused many to question whether BA could survive at all. Once the reserve is gone, the airline if finished if hit by anything major, and finished in the medium term anyway if the revenues can't be turned around very, very quickly.
And of course they wouldn't be. They still may not be. I'm really not sure you appreciate the gravity of the situation had the strike gone ahead. It could have been utterly catastrophic.
Does that answer you?
If they dump the money in the pension fund, it vanishes, and then what? They've got no reserve in case of need. I'm sure you can imagine a million scenarios where you might need that, but those are for in dire necessity. Having to deal with the partial or complete shutdown of the company through industrial action really shouldn't be one of them, and it's exactly why it caused many to question whether BA could survive at all. Once the reserve is gone, the airline if finished if hit by anything major, and finished in the medium term anyway if the revenues can't be turned around very, very quickly.
And of course they wouldn't be. They still may not be. I'm really not sure you appreciate the gravity of the situation had the strike gone ahead. It could have been utterly catastrophic.
Does that answer you?
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Paarmo.
Agreements drawn up by the union and BA are NOT part of your contract.Check your contract it also says that BA can post you to which ever fleet it wants to.They honour the agreements between fleets so they choose not to.BA have been very reasonable with crew over all of this.
You work for BA, BA does NOT work for you get with the beat .
Agreements drawn up by the union and BA are NOT part of your contract.Check your contract it also says that BA can post you to which ever fleet it wants to.They honour the agreements between fleets so they choose not to.BA have been very reasonable with crew over all of this.
You work for BA, BA does NOT work for you get with the beat .
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papillon
What I was saying was that it was WW who announced the pension deficit and a couple of days later came back with 2bn to fight the strike.
What I was trying to say is that if 2bn can be used for a strike can it not be used for a pension fund.
I offered cost savings for cabin crew, infact they were quite alot. But as I am neither a Unite or BA "negotiator" my voice is very small
What I was trying to say is that if 2bn can be used for a strike can it not be used for a pension fund.
I offered cost savings for cabin crew, infact they were quite alot. But as I am neither a Unite or BA "negotiator" my voice is very small
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Unite to appeal verdict?
Post 5974
Is this being reported anywhere (or is this inside information)?
I'm not calling the accuracy of this into question - just interested - is the strike being "on" again really a possibility?
UNITE is about to appeal - they will apparently appear at court tomorrow morning!
I'm not calling the accuracy of this into question - just interested - is the strike being "on" again really a possibility?
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IHeartMBT
No, it can't.
Because if you do you have a better funded pension fund - though still a short-fall, but no airline. Really that simple.
It would be criminally negligent of any company to remove the buffer like that, they HAVE to have it.
How do you think companies can finance losses like BA have been doing? How do you think BA managed to keep going in the days and weeks after Sept 11th? Airlines are like giant banks, they have huge amounts of money coming in, and huge amounts of money going out. They have to have huge amounts available in case for any reason the money stops coming in. This money hasn't appeared from nowhere, it's part of the emergency tappable funding. Basically, WW was trying to convince the City that this strike wouldn't kill the airline. Not everyone agreed.
Because if you do you have a better funded pension fund - though still a short-fall, but no airline. Really that simple.
It would be criminally negligent of any company to remove the buffer like that, they HAVE to have it.
How do you think companies can finance losses like BA have been doing? How do you think BA managed to keep going in the days and weeks after Sept 11th? Airlines are like giant banks, they have huge amounts of money coming in, and huge amounts of money going out. They have to have huge amounts available in case for any reason the money stops coming in. This money hasn't appeared from nowhere, it's part of the emergency tappable funding. Basically, WW was trying to convince the City that this strike wouldn't kill the airline. Not everyone agreed.
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I know nothing
DREW?? A large number of crew saying they are coming i, hAVE YOU spoken to everyone then. pLease keep quiet you know nothing!!!! out of nearly 10,000 of us that voted. I don't think so. I am sorry about the passengers, timing is no good but WW must go and BA must be the airline it used to be. I have had comments from passengers about wanting BA to be the airline it used to be.
Anyway, makes me laugh when people come on here and say large number of crew.ermm hate to break it to you but no it is a MINORITY really small MINORITY.
Well what can I say - even with a large majority - commonsense prevails and the ballot to strike is deemed to be unlawful. Like it was ever going to stand up in a court of law!!!! No doubt the next round of "facts" from Camp Bassa will be that Mrs Justice Cox is in the pay of BA and the Actual factual evidence presented in court was all fabricated.......Not this time me thinks.
And good to see someone speaking up for the "No to strike" Voters" on the ITN news.....In these cold dark winter days its good to see its not all "doom and gloom". Well done to the "minority" Just goes to show that those that shout the loudest dont always win!!!
Anyway, makes me laugh when people come on here and say large number of crew.ermm hate to break it to you but no it is a MINORITY really small MINORITY.
Well what can I say - even with a large majority - commonsense prevails and the ballot to strike is deemed to be unlawful. Like it was ever going to stand up in a court of law!!!! No doubt the next round of "facts" from Camp Bassa will be that Mrs Justice Cox is in the pay of BA and the Actual factual evidence presented in court was all fabricated.......Not this time me thinks.
And good to see someone speaking up for the "No to strike" Voters" on the ITN news.....In these cold dark winter days its good to see its not all "doom and gloom". Well done to the "minority" Just goes to show that those that shout the loudest dont always win!!!
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What I was saying was that it was WW who announced the pension deficit and a couple of days later came back with 2bn to fight the strike.
He did not come up with 2Bn to "fight the strike", this is BASSA nonsense.
The 2Bn is cash reserves to allow the company to keep operating until it can turn things around.
It is this "WW is getting money to fight us" mentality that is causing the problems. And if you keep believing this rubbish and acting accordingly, you will eventually get what it deserves - bankruptcy.
Because he will not continue to get funding if it all gets flushed away by pointless industrial action. It will become cheaper to lay you off.
Ba Not Safe
I have seen some well balanced comments by both pilots and cabin crew on this forum. I have also seen plenty, from both, that show pure venom. My feeling as SLF is that I would feel unsafe on an aircraft where captain and CSD genuinely despise each other.
I have one trip booked in February on BA. I opted to pay extra to fly BA rather than a competitor because I was advised its service was superior.
Whether or not that trip is disrupted I will never fly BA again. And ABBA is such a catchy slogan.
I have one trip booked in February on BA. I opted to pay extra to fly BA rather than a competitor because I was advised its service was superior.
Whether or not that trip is disrupted I will never fly BA again. And ABBA is such a catchy slogan.
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Da Dog
You couldn't make it up ! Hope the press pick up on this, am sure will endear them even more the Great British Public.
Wonder who has the BASSA mobile today/tomorrow, wonder how many alleviations they will "grant" (wtf !) if snow hits LHR ?? If they are really clever they will insist on two local nights at PIK again over the next few days.....
Wonder who has the BASSA mobile today/tomorrow, wonder how many alleviations they will "grant" (wtf !) if snow hits LHR ?? If they are really clever they will insist on two local nights at PIK again over the next few days.....
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If it wasn't for Unions in this country we would still be putting small boys up chimneys. Don't bash the Unions without giving a thought for the people they represent and they good that they actually do. Because you don't agree with them in this case does not make the principle wrong.
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911slf
As a CSD so would I. I would however like to reassure you that these contributors represent the tiniest proportion of our flight crew and cabin crew. In 22 years of flying I have never had the slightest falling out with either of my pilots, nor do I anticipate doing so (unless I have to fly with Jockster
). Actually, everyone gets on very well. You can often find us sat in a bar after the flight putting the world to right and I can't see this changing. For whatever other reason you may choose not to fly with BA again, don't let this be one of them.
Perhaps my colleagues would like to reflect on how they've been coming across?
My feeling as SLF is that I would feel unsafe on an aircraft where captain and CSD genuinely despise each other.
). Actually, everyone gets on very well. You can often find us sat in a bar after the flight putting the world to right and I can't see this changing. For whatever other reason you may choose not to fly with BA again, don't let this be one of them.Perhaps my colleagues would like to reflect on how they've been coming across?