British Airways - CC Industrial Relations & Negotiations

[Clarified]

Hello AtlasDrawer

I am quoting you because your words worry me.

Firstly, I voted No but have not felt able to tell people on line as I am worried about my name getting reported to the Bassa office ( or worse).

Please don't feel worried about being reported to the 'BASSA OFFICE'.
You don't work for them, they have no hold on you what so ever and you are displaying fortitued and integrity in your desire to stand by your NO vote.
I am on MBT and leave but have just registered with our company to let them know I will work any time they want me.
Furthermore, I said I would be happy to take minimum rest at any slip, work with CAA crewing levels and minimum MBT.
The company will facilitate coming to work and the law protects you against any possible harassment.
The law will also limit the picket numbers near any operational areas, don't worry.
I will be wearing my uniform inc. grey tie and parking my car where I normally park it, please join me and loads of others , you are not alone.
I am not sure what fleet you belong to but if by chance you're on Worldwide, I hope I have the opportunity to buy you a drink.

Questions that need to be answered.

How can a minority of BASSA members be allowed to throw out the company's reasonable proposal on a show of hands at a meeting on 6th July.
Is this not imposition on all those that could not attend?

What happened on those early days of October when the two elements of the Unite union Amicas and BASSA are reported as not being able to sit in the same room?
Now it seems you couldn't get any light between them.

I used to be a proud member of Cabin Crew 89.
In the late 80's some reps from the BASSA union split and decided to form their own union promising a different approach.
They delivered, they had huge influence in negotiating the long range agreement we all enjoy, an example of what union engagement can achieve.
Guys and girls, (original members) tell us about it!
I am still unclear if BASSA had any involvement in that one, please let us know, if you know and if BASSA have signed that yet? I hope so, as their members would be very unhappy if it was removed.
If they did, when did they sign it?
My defining moment was when my union, Cabin Crew 89, who some have refered to as 'are you 8 or 9', joined the smaller union (T&G).
On a national level that was probably OK, where I work it was very different.
I felt that the great engagment and cordial style would evaporate.
In my opinion I have been vindicated. It's a great shame, CC89 demonstrated what you can do if you really engage and want to move forward with your company.

AtlasDraw, you may be asking why I am refering to all these historical events?
My answer...
How do you know where you are going if you don't know where you have come from?
Be strong, stay objective and if the person your talking to is not for changing don't bother. They will get the message eventually!

[Clarified]

Clarifiying

Ben, the pay figures (£29K) come from the CAA, not BA. (see previous posts).
Great to know your going to join us in keeping the flag flying and not 'bonkers'.

[DernierVirage]

Electricflyer - "The cabin crew are one of the few aspects of the brand for which customers keep coming back. Degrade them and the brand is well and truly on its last legs...".

You're joking, right ? Every time I have used BA long haul I have been treated to an extra large helping of attitude from a bunch of surly cabin crew, and that is in J class.....

My wife, who is Hong Kong Chinese, considers BA cabin crew to be downright racist and gave up ever using them again a couple of years ago for that reason.

I suggest you try the competition and see what service can actually mean.

[chrisbl]

I am afraid the damage is done and whether crews keep working or not is fast losing any relevance. The vote and the strick call is the damage.

If passengers have any sense, they will rebook to give themselves some certainty, otherwise cancel and vow to never fly BA again.

I would not be surprised if from the 22nd BA has a nearly full crew complement but end up cutting flights not because there are no crew but no passengers.

The notion that passengers will hang on until the last minute hoping a deal will be done is not credible.

Thankfully I will not be going BA - learnt from the past never to take BA at holiday time.

[OLBA18]

Just rebooked with NZ on the Hong Kong route, luckily there were still seats left. Now means my miles will accrue with VS/NZ so will be rebooking with either of them for the next trip as well.

[Glamgirl]

Well, what can I say? The world has gone mad and I'm utterly disappointed and disgusted at the union's behaviour. I will certainly turn up for work. Can't really say much more than that, as I'm pretty much speechless.

Gg

[drew3325]

Postings thick and fast

So the posts on here are coming thick and fast and its good to see the large number of crew who "WILL" be ignoring the call to strike and have volunteered to work or will work to their rosta if at all possible.

To the "WW is toast" brigade I think not. The only message that you have sent is one of "we are spoilt children, have thrown our toys out of the pram and if you DONT do want we want we wont play". Such a foolish thing to do in the current economic climate.

Too all of the staff who have fears about turning up for work if the strike goes ahead, fear not you have nothing to worry about. You are not "scabs" you cannot be bullied, you cannot have your cars damaged or have any personal attacks on you mentally or physically. Those that "dish" out this sort of behaviour risk very serious consequences both by their employer as well as the law of the land.....

To those that voted "Yes" and now look forward to 12 days of "industrial action" - Perhaps you would like to share how you intend to "stretch" your strike pay to pay the bills.

To those that voted "Yes" and decide to suddenly be struck down by "stress" , " bad back" or any other life threatening ailment to try and get a sick note - remember good old EG300 - and ask yourself - "What is it there for" -

To those that voted "No" watch and see how many of those that voted "yes" actually join the picket line - You had the balls to vote for what "You" thought was right for you. How many of those that voted "Yes" will turn up for work and then turn round and say "I voted "No"....No good closing the gate after the horse as bolted.

Having seen Sky News and the crew member quoted "Its in Willie Walsh's hands now" -never has a truer word been said in fact it always has been. BA is a company that is owned by shareholders and must run as a business not as a charity. WW has a mandate to do that and if it wasnt him it would be someone else.

If the "militants" think that BA will climb down remember who it was that "climbed down" at the High Court with respect to the injunction against Imposition and agreed to work......

Reading the "statement" from BASSA stating that they are doing all they can to enable "striking crew" to work for charities during the period of industrial action and do "their bit", very commendable but that will do nothing to increase the "support" amongst the general public. Perhaps as BASSA feel that BA is a "charity" and not a business then perhaps their striking members will all turn up for work on the strike days!!!

"Laugh and the whole world laughs with you cry and you cry alone".

When this is all over and the dust has settled there will no doubt be one very small group of people "crying" and I know who I would put my money on to give out free tissues to.... (I was going to put "hot towels" but then that would be too much like hard work!!!)

So congratulations to all those that voted "No", Congratulations to all those that will ignore the "call to action" and go to work, Congratulations to all those who wont be "bullied" mentally or physically,

And to those who "have thrown your toys out of the pram" lets hope you stick by your "guns". Don't come a crying when the costs of your actions are recouped as part of the cost cutting exercise. Dont come a crying when you cant pay your bills. Dont come a crying when YOU cant get home for christmas and Dont come a crying when you start 2010 looking for a new job!!!

[Desertia]

The vote was no shock really, but the strike call I am sure was, especially to those that thought they were only voting "to send a message".

And still no sign of BA running back to the table - far from it.

Let's see how support for this strike lasts when the risk of dismissal starts to loom - and it will.

For all of the BASSA bravado, I have no doubt there is an underlying feeling amongst the lower ranks that their leaders are sending them out on a suicide mission, and this will grow over the next week.

Between now and December 22nd they will be looking daily for signs that BA have "got the message".

Unfortunately, it's hard to see any coming, as BA seem to be working to organise as normal a schedule as possible.

I expect traffic from worried CC on this forum to increase as people start to explore the reality of their situation and the inherent risks to both the company and their continued employment. And as they start to realise the extent of the lies their union have told them.

Therefore it is vital that we continue to spread the message and welcome these people with open arms.

The likes of electricflyer and the rest of the trolls, who think we are all idiots and who jump with joy at the prospect of doing further damage to their airline, will continue to come in with empty arguments, mindless militancy (yes Len, that's exactly what it is) and the odd BASSA lie to try and convince them otherwise.

But fortunately as soon as you start asking that lot any serious questions, they run off and set up another pseudonym so they can re-spout the same tired old nonsense. Evasion and lies are all they can come up with, and they know it.

To all decent BA Cabin Crew: Reject this neanderthal union and its self-serving leadership. Ask real questions about your job security. Ask real questions about your leaders' own packages, benefits, cherry-picked trips, etc.

You are being sold down the river and used as cannon fodder to protect them. Do not fall for it.

Ask questions here, and they will be answered truthfully.

You will not be shouted down, bullied, harrassed or threatened for disagreeing, as you would be for taking a contrary view on a BASSA forum.

Again, I wish all decent BA Cabin crew, BASSA members or not, my very best at this difficult time. You have a hard choice to make, but remember that you are not alone.

Talk to your managers to find out the extent of those who do not wish to strike; it is evident that many in BASSA, even those who voted Yes, do not want IA. Your union is calling the company's bluff, and it has not blinked.

Do not let these BASSA stormtroopers blindfold you or gag you, they want you deaf, dumb, blind and subservient. They do not want you asking questions. They do not want you doubting them. They do not want you daring to disagree with them.

Think for yourselves, and think for your fellow employees at British Airways. Ask serious questions. If BASSA don't want to answer them (and they won't even like you asking them!), you can be assured that someone here will.


Best Wishes,
D

[Nutjob]

And to those who "have thrown your toys out of the pram" lets hope you stick by your "guns". Don't come a crying when the costs of your actions are recouped as part of the cost cutting exercise. Dont come a crying when you cant pay your bills. Dont come a crying when YOU cant get home for christmas and Dont come a crying when you start 2010 looking for a new job!!!

You know, they'd better believe it. The prospect of Willie taking out ALL costs of the strike on our community is certain. However bad it looked before, you militants have made it SO much worse.

You face the very real prospect of looking for a new, far worse-paid job in 2010. I'd wish you good luck but as you're trying to destroy my job and that of your other employees and ruin the Xmas plans of countless passengers, I won't bother.

You deserve everything you get.

[Desertia]

This doesn't sound like a company quaking in its boots:

BA 'examining all strike options'

British Airways says it is exploring "all options" to help it cope with the impact of a planned 12-day strike by cabin crew over the Christmas period.

Up to one million passengers face the prospect of having journeys cancelled during the action by Unite members.

BA is trying to rework flight schedules but is also pondering legal action such as an injunction to stop the walkout.

Cabin crew voted nine to one in favour of strikes from 22 December over job cuts and staffing levels.

'Immense cost'

BA is insisting it will not climb down on its decision to reduce cabin crew numbers, which is at the heart of the dispute.

Unite is also adopting a tough stand, calling for talks to resolve the dispute but threatening another round of strikes unless BA backs down.

BBC employment correspondent Martin Shankleman says if BA was to offer refunds to passengers grounded by the strike - as it has done in the past - the cost to the company would be immense.

The strikes are set to begin on 22 December and run until 2 January following the union ballot, which had an 80% turnout.

British Airways chief executive Willie Walsh called the strike "senseless".

"It is very sad that [the union] are seeking to use the Christmas holiday plans and family reunions of hundreds of thousands of people to try to pursue their case," he said.

He said the company would be doing everything it could to limit the effect of the strike action.

"We are going to look at all our options - operational, legal and industrial relations options," he said.

Unite said that BA's cuts involved imposing "significant contractual changes" on cabin crew employees, resulting in extended working hours, and reduced wages for new starters.

Unite assistant general secretary Len McCluskey said staff wanted to be treated with "dignity and respect".

"We have taken this decision to disrupt passengers with a heavy heart and we are hoping that the company can still avoid it happening," he said.

Pay freeze

The result of the ballot was announced at a mass union meeting at Sandown Park racecourse in Esher, Surrey, on Monday.

BA has offered passengers who are booked to travel during the strike period - and 48 hours either side of it - the chance to rebook their flights at no extra cost.

Otherwise it said it would inform customers of changes to schedules by e-mail or mobile phone text.

BA has reduced the number of cabin crew from 15 to 14 on all long-haul flights and has frozen pay for two years.

The airline says it urgently needs to cut costs to ride out its dire financial situation.

Last month it revealed it had lost £292m in the first half of the year - the worst period in its history - and said it would have to cut a further 1,200 staff.

[Der absolute Hammer]

From one possible passenger point of view.

BA has a strike record which historically punishes the passenger so never book families with them over Christmas or Easter. I avoided them both last year and this for that exact reason. That is a given.

BA CC are paid a great deal more than anyone else and they are not, surprise surprise, a great deal better.

Terminal 5 is horrid airside.
LHR and LGY are not very nice places.

Unite says that the changes breach staff contracts, but BA disputes this. The union failed to win an injunction preventing the changes last month and a High Court judge will rule on the issue on February 1.
Unite insists that, whatever the judge decides, the cabin crew strike is justified. “We do not care if it is lawful or not. It is not acceptable to us,” Steve Turner, Unite’s national officer for aviation, said. “The only way we have to address unacceptable behaviour from a bad employer is to strike.”

So the union do not care if the strike is legal? Unions are once again above the law, in reality as well as attitude?

BA pension scheme is in a total mess.
BA have a mountain of debt.
Iberia are on the point of politely excusing themselves from the merger.

No kudos though for Willie Walsh, the flunked out pilot even thoughhe gave me a BA Gold Card with oak leaves and cluster.

Pretty soon though, there will no more work for new recruits and those who complain about having to work too hard on fixed sector flights with what is really surely a clearly demarcated on duty/off duty ops schedule/flight timetable will possibly have lots more free time.


You may get what you wish for and bring down the dinosaur but the probability is that you'll all rot with it, except of course the boyos who run the unions who will trip off gremlinise something else that could have worked.

With regret-I suppose-I am one of those who will continue to avoid flying BA at all costs because of their hostoric labour unreliablility and attitudes.
More convenient for Buesnos Aires direct I suppose but hey! A night in Madrid and then Iberia is more fun!

[finncapt]

First, let me say I think going on strike is absolutely stupid.

Second, I feel very sad for the likes of Finncastle and his ilk and trust that he is not disrupted too much.

However, if there must be a strike perhaps the period chosen is not so stupid after all.

It is perceived that BA's current difficulties are connected with the current downturn in the world economy.

This may mean that there is a good deal less business travel than before.

I would venture to suggest that the period chosen is the time when the level of business travel is at its lowest.

So, who is this strike going to hurt the most?

The likes of Finncastle, and with great respect to him, who, perhaps, takes one longhaul full fare club class return per year.

BA management who will have their Christmas ruined (I'm not too sure I am bothered by that).

The current Labour government because it raises the ugly head of a return to pre Thatcher politics.

Who is not going to be overly effected by it?

The business customers who make many journeys per year and keep a full service scheduled airline running (they are having Christmas with their families).

Who could gain from this?

The Conservatives and if I were David Cameron I would be milking it for all it is worth.

We will, in the first days, see harrowing scenes, from Heathrow, of some working class family from an industrial area whose breadwinner has been made redundant (shades of Jennifer's ear).

But, come Christmas Eve we will be back to the Queen going to church, Gordon and Geoff Hoon (if he still has that job) with our boys in Iraq and Afghanistan, Christmas dinner being delivered to Lighthouse keepers and this dispute will be relegated to the middle pages.

Oh, I forgot lighthouse keepers were made compulsory redundant several years ago!!!

[Desertia]

Oh my, the BASSA desperation gets worse, with this eloquent post on the Currant Bun's website:

Willie Walsh has thrown out countless offers from Cabin Crew, when savings of 280 million have been offered. I ask if anyone else was asked to drop their wage by 50% would it affect their life? Could they still pay their mortgage.

Yes, it's up to an imaginary 280 million now. And an imaginary 50% pay cut.

Do these people not understand the concept of TRUTH?

I should add that the vast majority of comments are extremely critical of BASSA and UNITE, and this from a readership from which you would think they would draw at least modest support.

[Der absolute Hammer]

finncapt....
A good and reasoned argument!
Are you suggesting that the unions intend in reality to do the least damage to BA in the shortest possible time while at the same time throwing a so far ignored golden assasins arrow to the conservatives as allies to maximise the political discomfort to the labour quasi/quango government?

Don't forget though that BA says it deives most of its income from business class passengers (is this correct?) A great number of those who fly in premium and/business are people like me who, even when on holdiay, now pay the extra. I see more and more over 40s in business going off to enjoy themselves. But for the price of a BA business, I can buy a Virgin Upper deck and I prefer the Virgin concept on long haul.

[GearUp CheerUp]

Vortex ouch,

What is it about airlines that they think they are important. Guys you are losing millions by the day, you sell sh1t service for way too much.

So the solution to this, according to the great genius Vortex, is to sell it for even less. That'll help stop making a loss, sure.

If I book a flight for 11 hours I expect to be looked after every minute.

You clearly have not the vaguest clue about running a business of any kind, let alone airlines.

You expect to book your hypothetical 11 hour flight cheaply, I expect and then be waited on, hand and foot fopr the duration? Even if you buy a ticket in 1st, it doesnt entitle you to that; how can it unless the ratio of flight attendants to passengers is 1:1?

Stick to flight sim, mate.

[Human Factor]

...why cant the flights go ahead without the cabin crew?

That may be one of the options. BA will be rejigging it's flying programme at the moment and one of the requirements will be to have aircraft in the "right place". Unfortunately, you can't carry passengers without cabin crew. Having said that, a lot will work so some flights will depart reasonably normally and clearly a lot of passengers will have cancelled or been rebooked.

[finncapt]

DAH

Yes, that may be so.

To your second part.

I think you are correct to say that BA gets most of its profit from business class and I agree that more people are using club for leisure.

In my time, as a pilot in the airline, BA used to have a quite restricted service during the period in question (lots of the European nightstop aircraft were cancelled and the North American city services were reduced - its not much fun in a Houston hotel for several days over Christmas).

If I was BA and had restricted numbers of cabin crew over the holiday period, I would attempt to run the services to the Empire (if that is still pc to use) destinations and accept that I couldn't crew the business routes.

Maximum social return for minimum loss of revenue.

[fincastle84]

Finncapt

Second, I feel very sad for the likes of Finncastle and his ilk and trust that he is not disrupted too much.

Thanks very much for your concern & for the kind remarks I've received from so many of the LOYAL Cabin Crew!

The mark of a really great airline is to provide superb customer support when things get tough. That is what has happened to us. We have been offered alternative flights on the 20th December, still in J & have had received a refund of our seat booking fee AND been given seats on the upper deck. I have nothing but praise for the way Tracey in customer services sorted this out. Thank you.

However, this doesn't alter the feeling of utmost contempt I have for those mindless Bassa morons who are ruining Christmas for so many 1000s of people. Hopefully they'll have a miserable time on the lonely picket line!

Sorry to spoil your fun Courtney!

[finncapt]

Finncastle

I was going to ask you to come back and explain how you got on over Christmas but you have answered my question.

I'll stand out on a limb here and say that is why you book BA and not one of the no frills competitors.

Enjoy your holiday.

I'm off now, it's -20c here and I have other tasks pressing.

[dogeared]

i fly often with a company where the FO does the safety demo and there are no cc at all.