British Airways - CC Industrial Relations & Negotiations
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A joint statement by BASSA and Amicus branch of Unite
A final meeting was held at ACAS between British Airways and Unite. British Airways presented a new Disruption Agreement. Considering the changes imposed upon the cabin crew community and the forthcoming meeting between Unite’s Joint General Secretaries and Willie Walsh, planned for Monday 19th October, both sections of Unite felt it would be inappropriate to discuss this document. If the imposed changes are removed at their meeting on Monday, further discussions have provisionally been arranged for the 21st October. If no progress is made at that meeting a ballot for industrial action is inevitable.
What Unite are really interested in......
I suggest that BA CC might want to google Unite/Vauxhall/Elesmere Port/Luton and current priorities.
Unite are very concerned about the retention of thousands of jobs in the motor industry.
Losing a crew member in lhr long haul might not be top of their priorities. Unite will not bet the Union - or any part of it - for "Bassa"
While you are there, have a look at Vauxhall FC aswell........and its Committee........... it shows another view of TU priorities.
Unite are very concerned about the retention of thousands of jobs in the motor industry.
Losing a crew member in lhr long haul might not be top of their priorities. Unite will not bet the Union - or any part of it - for "Bassa"
While you are there, have a look at Vauxhall FC aswell........and its Committee........... it shows another view of TU priorities.
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HiF14 et al
I understand your apprehension at the current situation, which largely has been foisted upon you by your 'elected' reps failing to discharge their responsibilities to you fully, but to expect WW and BA to back down on their imposition and NF I think is a hope too far.
The company has been very methodical in its approach and has dotted every 'i' and crossed every 't' in the required manner with its use of timetables, negotiations (which BASSA generally failed to attend), its use of ACAS and of HR notifications and legally required timetables. All of those have lapsed and now BASSA/Unite are screaming foul play!
Well I'm sorry, but they are where the company wants them, we have been telling folks here for many months that BASSA are/were letting you down, and here we are, point proven.
Todays meeting was only ever about the disruption agreement as far as BA were concerned, and predictably (and understandably) BASSA/Unite wanted imposition off the table before discussion.
But because the disruption agreement probably falls on the 'contractural' side of the agreements and everything else on the 'non-contractural' side, BA have cleverly separated the issues
So where are we?
WW will meet with Unite bosses and tell them the score next week. Unite and BASSA will fall out and BASSA will issue a ballot for strike action.
The ballot will run and doubtless a majority achieved (for a sick out), but much less a majority than historically as many looking for VR/part time will not vote for a strike to support CSD's sitting back in offices etc.
Any action will quickly fold and BASSA will be defeated and/or bankrupt.
As you appreciate, fundamental change within BASSA/Unite is required, how to achieve that? Well, I'm afraid the current situation will have to run its course - good luck - you will surely need it, and all so unnecessary....
I understand your apprehension at the current situation, which largely has been foisted upon you by your 'elected' reps failing to discharge their responsibilities to you fully, but to expect WW and BA to back down on their imposition and NF I think is a hope too far.
The company has been very methodical in its approach and has dotted every 'i' and crossed every 't' in the required manner with its use of timetables, negotiations (which BASSA generally failed to attend), its use of ACAS and of HR notifications and legally required timetables. All of those have lapsed and now BASSA/Unite are screaming foul play!
Well I'm sorry, but they are where the company wants them, we have been telling folks here for many months that BASSA are/were letting you down, and here we are, point proven.
Todays meeting was only ever about the disruption agreement as far as BA were concerned, and predictably (and understandably) BASSA/Unite wanted imposition off the table before discussion.
But because the disruption agreement probably falls on the 'contractural' side of the agreements and everything else on the 'non-contractural' side, BA have cleverly separated the issues
So where are we?
WW will meet with Unite bosses and tell them the score next week. Unite and BASSA will fall out and BASSA will issue a ballot for strike action.
The ballot will run and doubtless a majority achieved (for a sick out), but much less a majority than historically as many looking for VR/part time will not vote for a strike to support CSD's sitting back in offices etc.
Any action will quickly fold and BASSA will be defeated and/or bankrupt.
As you appreciate, fundamental change within BASSA/Unite is required, how to achieve that? Well, I'm afraid the current situation will have to run its course - good luck - you will surely need it, and all so unnecessary....
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How does one oust a Union that has represented the members so badly?
One huge issue has been that because there are so many of us, people did not bother to read any of the proposals but accepted that "BASSA knew best". If I had a pound for every time I said to someone "but it's not BA that are trying cut our pay it's BASSA ..." well,
Another huge issue has been, again due to the size of the union membership, the impossibility of lone voices being heard. Abuse, bullying, harrassment, etc. is rife as has already been reported. Even the reps from the different branches have threatened each other with punch ups in the car park!! What hope then for those of us who did read the proposals, who did try and voice concern, and who did expect this to happen? It seems very unfair.
I don't for one minute expect WW to back down from imposition. I actually think imposition has been a long time coming. I guess my last distant hope was that WW, in an attempt to avert a strike, would have an ace up his sleeve and New Fleet has all just been a bad dream. But I appreciate that this is just sheer hope now on my part...
If the current situation does run its course, it leaves us facing a very bleak future, which I blame entirely on the Union. I for one do not want to sit back and allow that to happen, yet we appear powerless to do anything.
Anyway, before they are able to strike, people will have to decide whether to turn up for work or not on 16 Nov and 1 Dec. That will sort out the mice from the men....for the record I, and I'm sure many more, will be turning up. I wonder how confident the foul- and loud-mouthed mobs are feeling now?
One huge issue has been that because there are so many of us, people did not bother to read any of the proposals but accepted that "BASSA knew best". If I had a pound for every time I said to someone "but it's not BA that are trying cut our pay it's BASSA ..." well,
Another huge issue has been, again due to the size of the union membership, the impossibility of lone voices being heard. Abuse, bullying, harrassment, etc. is rife as has already been reported. Even the reps from the different branches have threatened each other with punch ups in the car park!! What hope then for those of us who did read the proposals, who did try and voice concern, and who did expect this to happen? It seems very unfair.
I don't for one minute expect WW to back down from imposition. I actually think imposition has been a long time coming. I guess my last distant hope was that WW, in an attempt to avert a strike, would have an ace up his sleeve and New Fleet has all just been a bad dream. But I appreciate that this is just sheer hope now on my part...
If the current situation does run its course, it leaves us facing a very bleak future, which I blame entirely on the Union. I for one do not want to sit back and allow that to happen, yet we appear powerless to do anything.
Anyway, before they are able to strike, people will have to decide whether to turn up for work or not on 16 Nov and 1 Dec. That will sort out the mice from the men....for the record I, and I'm sure many more, will be turning up. I wonder how confident the foul- and loud-mouthed mobs are feeling now?
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Bassa have played a blinder and adhered to all the negotiations including acas representations.now that the cards are on the table,a ballot for strike action is only days away,unless the management team address the points of contention.i know that the consensus is for idustrial action,are the management prepared for a drawn out dispute,or is there room for negotiation and agreement ?? as a game of poker it is reaching a point of great interest,who will buckle,or who will call the bluff.the cabin crew realise that their long term conditions are in real danger of erosion,earning potential and route choice will be destroyed,new fleet would be the death nell for allowances and days off after trips.strike action is the only option to protect their long term earnings,can BA afford a dispute and a strike ?? i cannot call the outcome of this dispute,but watch it with great interest,
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Bassa have played a blinder???
Bassa have played a blinder
It has been pointed out numerous times over the last few days that the meeting today was only ever going to be about the disruption agreement, so what exactly have Bassa achieved today what blinder have they played?
In fact I fail to see what BASSA have achieved in the last 6 months or so.
bermudatriangle or anyone please enlighten me in to how Bassa have been looking after my interests at all in these negotiations.
Thanks
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Top Bunk wrote:
How sad and petty.
If indeed you do still work for British Airways, may I suggest you get out of the Flight Deck more, stretch your legs and see for yourself what goes on in the cabin.
Comments like this do a world of wonders for FD/CC relations not.
The ballot will run and doubtless a majority achieved (for a sick out), but much less a majority than historically as many looking for VR/part time will not vote for a strike to support CSD's sitting back in offices etc.
If indeed you do still work for British Airways, may I suggest you get out of the Flight Deck more, stretch your legs and see for yourself what goes on in the cabin.
Comments like this do a world of wonders for FD/CC relations not.
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Bassa have played a blinder and adhered to all the negotiations including acas representations.
They have presented 'savings' that then took them a week to breakdown into individual costings which, even then, didn't add up.
Whilst all of this intransigence was going on all of the other departments within BA reached negotiated agreements as to how to achieve their long term, permanent cost savings within an acceptable structure and without imposition.
So, once again, where is the 'blinder'?
Are management up for the difficulties of IA? Yes. Why? Because the current BA management have stated to share holders that the fundamental structure of the company will change. That is required for further investment to be able to renew the fleets, consolidate the BA brand and achieve future success. Old aircraft do not age gracefully. Once past a certain age the cost of replacing them increases. The material worth decreases and the engineering commitment and cost increases exponentially. As has been stated before, failure to invest will cause a long, slow lingering corporate death. Failure to restructure in the current environment will lead to loss of external investment and therefore loss of internal investment and BA becomes the next Pan Am.
BASSA shot themselves in the foot by allowing the new structures at Gatwick, a proving ground. New Fleet will come as the company can then have greater control over rostering, have a better prediction as to monthly costs per cabin crew and align pay and conditions to the industry standard.
Failure to negotiate has lost BASSA any chance to be able to help shape the future of CC. They have been sidelined by BA and that will possibly shown on a legal level in exactly the same way the OS was for pilots but lacking the legal protection of the SCOPE clause. BASSA must now scramble around and posture to try and win back ground. Personally I don't think it will help. This CEO wants the threat of CC strikes out of the way for good and a downturn coupled with a strongly reduced winter flying programme and fleet closures/stand downs is the ideal place to start.
CC should have been far, far better represented in this then the disservice they have received from BASSA.
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If indeed you do still work for British Airways, may I suggest you get out of the Flight Deck more, stretch your legs and see for yourself what goes on in the cabin.
As with many things the perception is always the thing that leads the discussion. As the CSD's rostered role has no active part in the service the perception is sometimes biased.
Personally I have found that most, not all but most, CSD's excellent to work with and they generally tend to find a trolley to work.
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Unions from a different angle
HF14 (sorry to quote you twice, nothing personel in my comments)
A leopard never changes it spots, so I think that is a bit of wishful thinking.
Look at our current UK Government, heads in sand but carry on regardless. They know they will not be governing after the next election so they are F
the country up in spite. (IMHO)
Sadly this probably harder than you think. How many people volunteer to be shop stewards?
Very few.
Look at the ones that have volunteered, do they do it so they can get extra time off work for union meetings?
Are they genuinely interested in the people they are supposed to represent?
Are they doing it to get the most out of the system for themselves?
Many years ago I did a bit of shop stewarding. It was a thankless task and the meetings.... oh so boring and repetative. Needless to say I did not do it for long.
At the end of the day you need a representative/s who has/have your interest at heart, has the ability to see the bigger picture, know that when dealing in negotiations it is always give and take. This, in my experience, is a very rare person to find I would suggest, even in such a large community as Cabin Crew.
I hope for a good outcome for Cabin Crew as my job will be on the line, as with 20,000 others.
In this the final hour now, our Union need to show masses of decorum and professionalism,
Look at our current UK Government, heads in sand but carry on regardless. They know they will not be governing after the next election so they are F
the country up in spite. (IMHO)
How does one oust a Union that has represented the members so badly?
Very few.
Look at the ones that have volunteered, do they do it so they can get extra time off work for union meetings?
Are they genuinely interested in the people they are supposed to represent?
Are they doing it to get the most out of the system for themselves?
Many years ago I did a bit of shop stewarding. It was a thankless task and the meetings.... oh so boring and repetative. Needless to say I did not do it for long.
At the end of the day you need a representative/s who has/have your interest at heart, has the ability to see the bigger picture, know that when dealing in negotiations it is always give and take. This, in my experience, is a very rare person to find I would suggest, even in such a large community as Cabin Crew.
I hope for a good outcome for Cabin Crew as my job will be on the line, as with 20,000 others.
Last edited by keel beam; 15th Oct 2009 at 10:25. Reason: additional point
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No idea what the 20,000 refers too.
I think its a little late now to be discussing what should have happened etc etc. Those that were with BASSA and are now questioning what is going maybe should have been questioning months ago. I personally find it irritating that so many posts are now "i wish the union did this, i have not been represented" when this thread is over a 100 pages long and many people have pointed this out at the very beginning!
Ballot for Strike do what you think it rite. But i think what many cabin crew fail to remember is that you are replaceable. I don't want to make digs etc but if we are all honest if BA put an ad up on the careers website saying we are hiring for New Fleet in January how many 1000's do you think will apply. With hold pools full of people and recruitment at the start of this year BASSA and current crew should have known how important negotiating was.
Don't get me wrong i was all for crew fighting for what they could keep but clearly nothing happened when a New Fleet is being introduced. I think inevitable this new fleet will start and it will only be a matter of time before crew on WW get starved of work and have no choice but to transfer over.
What i would be worried about now is how and when this will be implemented? what routes? aircrafts? who would manage the flights? Times really are changing.
I think its a little late now to be discussing what should have happened etc etc. Those that were with BASSA and are now questioning what is going maybe should have been questioning months ago. I personally find it irritating that so many posts are now "i wish the union did this, i have not been represented" when this thread is over a 100 pages long and many people have pointed this out at the very beginning!
Ballot for Strike do what you think it rite. But i think what many cabin crew fail to remember is that you are replaceable. I don't want to make digs etc but if we are all honest if BA put an ad up on the careers website saying we are hiring for New Fleet in January how many 1000's do you think will apply. With hold pools full of people and recruitment at the start of this year BASSA and current crew should have known how important negotiating was.
Don't get me wrong i was all for crew fighting for what they could keep but clearly nothing happened when a New Fleet is being introduced. I think inevitable this new fleet will start and it will only be a matter of time before crew on WW get starved of work and have no choice but to transfer over.
What i would be worried about now is how and when this will be implemented? what routes? aircrafts? who would manage the flights? Times really are changing.
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Yes, we should have been questioning earlier on, but I think a lot of us felt (albiet wrongly) that this was just going to be yet another no-result BA vs bassa spat. And, as has been discussed above, questioning bassa may not be as straight forward as it should have been/should be.
Too late, but maybe mass resignations from bassa might get the message accross?
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Sorry it is all about CC after 30 years at BA I know only to well that it has always been everyman / woman for themselves! I regret to say it has been like that for most of those 30 years in my experience.
Perhaps you or someone else can tell me that I am wrong - I doubt it?
Perhaps you or someone else can tell me that I am wrong - I doubt it?