British Airways - CC Industrial Relations & Negotiations

[Baz50]

I am on the outside but am a frequent BA customer.

If you are not happy with your union and they decide to ballot for a strike (not sure what the reason at the moment could be after yesterday's court hearing) just vote NO and then cancel your membership. Without members there would be no union. No point complaining about a union that some people have no faith in when you continue to be a member. It is not a closed shop.

The imposition they seem to be annoyed about is very modest under the present financial circumstances. Just one crew member off a large aircraft when there is another crew member who can help out who would otherwise be supervising.

I am more than surprised to read about the health issues this could present for crew and customers.

Are the 777's at LGW crewed with the same amount of crew that LHR 777's are and do they have the same cabin layouts and number of passengers?

[HiFlyer14]

1stClass - I'm sure we could find a way - I'd certainly be willing to try, but first we all definitely need to VOTE NO AND THEN RESIGN. It is the only way to save ourselves and prevent this Union from destroying our company.

Baz50 - and all other BA customers on this thread, please rest assured that many many of us cabin crew are devoted to our jobs, we do not think that what BA is asking is too much, nor is it worth striking over so please, please don't cancel your travel plans until the votes have been counted. Not all of us are brainwashed or braindead. It ain't over yet......! And yes, bizarrely LGW 777 do operate to lower crewing levels than LHR, and as the Union also represent BA cabin crew at LGW it is somewhat mysterious and ridiculous how on earth they expect to win a court case citing the "health and safety of the crew." as they already have crew within their own membership operating to those levels. If it weren't so serious, one could laugh.

And as for the ridiculous quote : The BASSA reps will not knowingly let you down - you have our word!

Well, guess what? They already have.

[HiFlyer14]

From the Union

We have asked them to step back from the brink. There is still time to re-instate the proper crewing levels. We can then meet and try to find a common way through these difficult times...but judging by the tone of yesterday’s ESS this is extremely unlikely.

Repeat ...We can then meet and try to find a common way through these difficult times...

If the Union had done that before the end of June (which is what most members wanted them to do) then we wouldn't have been in this sorry mess. It beggars belief.

[2 Whites 2 Reds]

Yes the 777 crew thing is true...I know this because my brother spends much of his rostered month on the 777.

The thing that really gets me is the deifference in pay between LHR and LGW crews. What idiot was incharge of contracts the day this bizarre scenario came about?

HiFlyer14 - Good on you for having some real sense and an understanding grasp of whats really going on. Nice to see, and I mean that really sincerely! I'm sick of hearing about how bad the BA CC are for all this strike action. I known for some time that in reality a large proportion of crew never wanted any of this militant strike s**t! The sooner a new, modern, informed and realistic union is formed with members like yourself at the helm the better. BA aside for a moment; the whole industry is on its knees and the last thing any of us need if this rubbish. Many many of my friends are stacking shelves in Tesco this evening whilst holding CPL/IR's looking for their first flying job so the moaners won't get an awful lot of sympathy from me. Back to BA, the company simply cannot productively focus its best efforts on the ever increasing fight for survival until rediculous distractions like this are put to bed.

Please please do NOT go on strike. You will only end up damaging the airlines and ultimately yourselves and when all's said and done the self important UNION 'leaders' in the UNITE office will just get what they want....a good fight with the evil company!!!!

[fincastle84]

Re HighFlyer14:

As another long term customer of your still great airline your words are warming my heart & are echoed in the many PMs I have received from your colleagues in response to an earlier comment I posted. I sincerely hope that common sense prevails & that those who aren't happy realise that their unions are leading them down a path to destruction.

Good luck & God bless you all.

[Jean-Lill]

How can they possibly hope to convince anyone that one less cabin crew may result in health issues when the same airline operates with less crew just 40 miles down the road without any known health problems.

I beleive this latest strike ballot threat is wishful thinking by a minority of the cabin crew because they do not wish to acknowledge there was not a victory in the court yesteday.

Thankfully the majority of cc are level headed sensible thinking employees who take pride in their duties and wish to retain their jobs and will not be lead to the dole queue by those who cannot accept that Bassa does not run the airline. It matters not whether one like or dislikes the management or what they do.

Retaining a well paid job during these difficult times is more important. Perhaps some of the Bassa 100% brigade do not know anyone who has lost their job in the last year or so and the hardship that goes with that for them and their family.

There are lots of unemployed experienced cabin crew out there who would love to strap themselves into a cabin crew seat on a BA aircraft, so many airline have gone bankrupt in the last year. I bet some of the employed ones would also like to do the same.

We will not be cancelling our Christmas flights with BA.

[ottergirl]

Not another new union

HiFlyer14 how would it even be possible to start a new union? I have no idea how it could be done but it is a good idea. It would have to be one that is not militant and willing to discuss and listen. I feel saddened that many unions just want to fight and this could even happen to a new one. That said, it would be nice to have one that asks the opinions of its members rather than just a show of hands.

We already have another union (helped to set up by BALPA) that is generally not militant and who always ballots its members by post before making any decisions on our behalf. Many of us joined it post 1997 dispute because we wanted a different style of representation. I'm thinking a third union might be too many.

I heard a story in the pub yesterday that BA cabin crews on the London City to New York route get a night layover at London City after reporting at Gatwick because of duty time regs. Is that true?

It most likely is true due to the long duty hours on that flight. The stop in Shannon makes it a very long day and if the crew had driven up from LGW as well there would be a danger of them going out of hours with the slightest delay. That would apply to Flight crew as well though.

[finncapt]

Olive Oil

If true, I imagine that it's as much to do with the problems of ensuring crews get to LCY with the traffic jams that can happen in South London!!!

[TorC]

Originally Posted by ottergirl

We already have another union (helped to set up by BALPA) that is generally not militant and who always ballots its members by post before making any decisions on our behalf. Many of us joined it post 1997 dispute because we wanted a different style of representation. I'm thinking a third union might be too many.

Personally, I think the problem that a lot of us have, not just with bassa, but also with cc89, is that they both are now under the auspices(sp?) of Unite. Sadly, when I was looking to change from one to the other, I found both now appear to simply peddle the same rhetoric.

I would very much welcome a new, independant, non-millitant, sensible, constructive, understanding and involved union ..... maybe something more along the lines of a Works Council. An outfit that works WITH the airline, not AGAINST it. Membership criteria would probably have to be set a bit higher than merely being employed as CC .... it would need a degree of commitment to understand that not every issue needs to result in a battle.

I appreciate that my wish may appear a little fancyful, but I feel that until such time that there is a fundamental change in the way relationships run between BA and its Employees and vice-versa (faults on both sides) none of us is ever going to get anywhere.

TorC

BASSA 0% / CC89 0% / UNITE 0%

[TorC]

NewBunks

The major difference being: I don't recall any of my Flight Crew colleagues EVER coming-up with statements such as "I'd rather see BA die, than accept new Ts & Cs" and such similar utterances that appear aplenty on this thread (and reportedly in other places) from some of my Cabin Crew colleagues.

[Autobrake Low]

It is also a slightly different situation from the Openskies issue. At that time BA were taking advantage of a change in legislation (i.e. Openskies) to launch a new airline. Yes the fundamental issues were alike - safeguarding terms and conditions.
It is quite clear today however that the airline and industry is in dire trouble and everyone across the board has to accept some changes in order to safeguard our future as a company. This is not just a change of policy for the sake of it. It is a shame that a deal could not be worked out and the impact of changes in some way controlled.

[bealine]

I am fed up with all the vitriol - For God's Sake, We Are All British Airways! Let's just shake hands and move on!

Whilst BA and the Union both claim a victory with the Court Case, EVERYONE is a loser here!

The only winners are the legal gooks who stand to amass even more wealth from their extortionate fees.

Personally, I would like to see the managers, the union reps and ACAS locked into a secure cell with just a table and chairs and a bog in the corner and left, without food or water, until such time as they ring the bell to let everyone know a deal has been reached!

Then BA and its staff can move forward together!

[Watersidewonker]

Nice post in the Telegraph.

Although not Cabin Crew, i do work for BA, and it is getting really bad where i work.
BA managers are not visible through-out most of the shift. Those at the bottom, who deliver the operation are just left to get on with coping under a snowballing work-load. Operations is known as the poor relation of other corporate parts of the airline. Not as glamorous and essential to BA as marketing, or sales, or finance departments.
Senior managers have never paid us a visit to see how we work, or experience the struggle we go through each day to try and deliver the operation. Instead they have their heads buried in the sand, sat in their calm offices, devising their next delusional plan, or issuing edicts about uniform standards, while they have afforded themselves the luxury of not having to wear a tie at work. Let those at the bottom wear the ties!
As the day progresses, the operation starts resembling bedlam, as people make mistakes, and colleagues start losing their temper and their sanity. People are employed of different grades and rates of pay, but employed to do the same work. The lowest paid are expected to work harder and be more flexible than those on more money. Go figure? Still others on old contracts/grades/higher pay, just sit around doing nothing, except watch their colleagues struggle to keep their heads above water. The staff that do care run around like headless chickens trying to deliver the unreasonable/impossible. Things miss their booked flight because we do not have the resources and time to deliver the kind of operation; those that take pride in their work, would like to give our customers.
Most, if not all, of BA�s outstations are handled by third parties/handling companies who couldn�t care less if they are meeting their contractually agreed service levels. Outstation failures just get passed to Heathrow/Gatwick to sort out.
Everything I learnt at school, college, and university about quality being important, getting things right first time, having a plan that closely matches what can be delivered; none of these things apply here.
No-one gets recognition for good work, whilst poor time keeping and operational mistakes are quickly brought to your attention and a reprimand swiftly issued.
Plenty of people care, but apparently none among those that take decisions, since none of them has the time, courage, or even inclination to see at first-hand how bad things are on the front-line.
Most people here are just plane fed-up, at how this great company with a future, is being flushed down the toilet by that aged old disease known as the British style of management. Lions led by donkeys springs to mind, without detracting anything from the much greater level of sacrifice being made by our servicemen and women.
You wanted to know how to solve BA�s problems part II? Please come spend an unannounced day with us in the operation. See for yourself how unorganised it really is, and how it resembles working for a bunch of amateurs; not the professional, blue-chip company that BA likes to portray itself as.
Where i work things are regressing not progressing.
Talk about running a viable business into the ground.

[Little Blue]

You strike, you lose.
This is 2009, not 1989.
The management have you all by the short and curlies. The unions have had their day and the judgement should spell that out to you.
By all means, waste your time at the next shindig at the races, but you will gain nowt.
Step into line with every other UK carrier, or lose face.
Your choice.
LB

[4468]

Watersidewonker

how this great company with a future, is being flushed down the toilet by that aged old disease

BA is indeed being flushed down the toilet by a disease!

What that disease is, is purely a matter of opinion.

Some may say that certain departments are the last bastion of restrictive Trade Union practices!

Which is indeed an age old disease!

For example a long haul disruption 'agreement' that mandates a diverted cabin crew to enjoy TWO full nights off before continuing to base!. Even though 12 hours would be the legal minimum! The union recently INSISTED there be NO alleviation. I'm sure your customers, for whom you claim to care, were well impressed!

How can this possibly be defended?

Anybody voting 'yes' in this ballot MUST be absolutely certain that they are prepared to be the very first in line to be sacked, because an overall yes vote WILL Lead to industrial Action. BA have their backs to the wall. They will not survive without change! A simple ballot result will NOT be sufficient to make BA 'think again'!

A yes vote, followed by a collapse of resolve on day one of IA would do FAR more damage to BASSA than people simply being honest and voting NO!

A mass 'sick out' would be an even worse result, and would leave those individuals guilty of the new charge of pattern sickness, and TOTALLY outside of any protection in law.

Each and every one of the BASSA members have a very important personal decision to make. Are you prepared to lose everything? Because for some of you, that is undoubtedly what a yes result will achieve.

And for what?

[Lord Daddy Flash]

I think everyone is still waiting for Watersidewonker's argument as to why BASSA are winning this 'fight', using fact and rational.... I think we are in for a long wait.

[windytoo]

320+ seat, 2 Class A/C operating out of the U.K on 10+ hour sectors with 2 pilots and 10 CC. No bunks, no rest areas. Pilots stay in the seats, CC hope to get 20 minutes rest on a bar box. This company has been operating for over 40 years in the U.K and has made a profit every year it has existed. This year maybe not? Aircrew notice out in last couple of weeks saying we have to operate 1 CC down on certain sectors. Sharp intake of breath, some mutterings, then OK lets try and give the passengers the service we can. I think a reality check needs to be undertaken by a few dreamers in BA who also appear to be agitators. I suspect and hope that the silent majority will see the light and commonsense will prevail. Nobody should ever want to see fellow crew out of a job unless they are incredibly self-centered and vindictive people. To wish your own colleagues out of their jobs is totally beyond belief.

[JoeyJJJ]

Hi,

I have been a long term reader of this site. I have not bothered registering in the past because I did not think I had same qualification to post on here compared to some others. I can't read this thread without speaking anymore though.

Can someone please clarify for me the following.

Unite have said the strikes are a seperate issue and the court case has not effected the ballot. Are Unite saying that they will ballot their members on seperate issues to that of contractual terms (eg pay freezes and stopovers etc) or are they saying they can still ballot about their contractual concerns?

Either way they are on to a loser but I want to clarify this before I put my points across.

[flyinspanner]

4468
You only partly understand "scheme" rules. Under LAW, the rest must be 'one hour less than the duty period'
Therefore on a long range flight with a duty day of say 16h30m...the minimum rest must be 15h30m. NOT 12hrs.
(this can be reduced by 1hr via Captains Discretion in suitable accomodation) there are other restrictions in scheme.
-Some of which dictate that rest may continue even longer to achieve a local night.....(and these apply equally to flight crew as well as cabin crew)

And then there are the Industrial agreements...agreed with BA...are you going to blame the crew for what the company agreed to?

2whites 2reds
If your friends working in Tescos with CPL/IR etc and others in a similar position, offer to join a "BA New Pilot Fleet" on a much lower pay stucture, lower hourly rate, less days off, higher CAP, will you think thats a great idea to save BA money...esp if they get all the 'money' trips moved to their bid package?

There are two sides to any story, and luckily non of the issuse will be decided on this forum, we all have our own opinions/views/etc

Crewing levels do differ at LGW, but im many cases so does the product delivered. (Deli bags vs Hot meals in europe)

Most crew dont want a strike, most fear that the reductions in service our customers recieve, will not make them stay loyal, that reducing crew levels reduces the safety margin, that new fleet -with a 2 year turnover- (a McJob) will not build loyalty of staff, that they will not have a vested interest in the long term customer loyalty. They wont go the extra mile that the current crew do now.
Will Mr.W still be around then to clean up the mess ?

[Weather Map]

What's the story with the Bassa Six ? The cabin crew on our flight were talking about it today but didn't seem to want to tell us.What have they done.