BA and Project Columbus III
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The reason the Chairperson of BASSA has not told members what the details of the proposals are, is because the proposals belong to BA and if required they should let crew know what they are. But, as has been show in my earlier thread, there is a communications blackout. Both sides are adhering to this and where information is disclosed, it is with the agreement of all parties.
This doesn't not imply that BASSA have their heads in the sand or the clouds or any other overused cliche locations. Nor does it mean that they are not negotiating. Nor does it mean that all BASSA can say is NO.
I've returned to pages of drivel and subjective argument. Everybody seems privy to facts that I, and other cabin crew are not. I haven't a clue what is being said behind closed doors. I'm jealous that you lot do. I only know if talks are progressing or stalling. The rest is drivel.
This doesn't not imply that BASSA have their heads in the sand or the clouds or any other overused cliche locations. Nor does it mean that they are not negotiating. Nor does it mean that all BASSA can say is NO.
I've returned to pages of drivel and subjective argument. Everybody seems privy to facts that I, and other cabin crew are not. I haven't a clue what is being said behind closed doors. I'm jealous that you lot do. I only know if talks are progressing or stalling. The rest is drivel.
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PC767, Pib et al,
It would seem from the missives your unions are sending out that the negotiations are not running either well nor intelligently. 'first shocked then angry'?, 'Won't bore you with the Nitty Gritty'?
Add to that the time frame available to you and I would suggest that the unions have left it too late for too long.
As to the BALPA deal, if you could be bothered to either read or understand the small print it states that the BALPA agreement will only be activated when all other departments cost savings targets have been achieved. Thus, if you agree a deal, which I hope you do for the sake of your members, or get savings imposed along with all the tiresome BASSA tub thumping that will involve, then BAPLA will implement our cost savings.
Negotiations since February? I depends upon your definition of negotiation? I would suggest that the 'no, no, no, now whats the question?' approach coupled with the schoolchild 'but why should we give up anything when they haven't given up anything' is not the art of skilled, intelligent negotiation. Your difficulties in this stem from your inability to negotiate in the past.
Now, stop ranting about how other, already 'leaned' (read no ridiculous bonus payments etc.) departments have managed to achieve their negotiations by the deadline and concentrate on getting a good deal for your members without the childish name calling.
It would seem from the missives your unions are sending out that the negotiations are not running either well nor intelligently. 'first shocked then angry'?, 'Won't bore you with the Nitty Gritty'?
Add to that the time frame available to you and I would suggest that the unions have left it too late for too long.
As to the BALPA deal, if you could be bothered to either read or understand the small print it states that the BALPA agreement will only be activated when all other departments cost savings targets have been achieved. Thus, if you agree a deal, which I hope you do for the sake of your members, or get savings imposed along with all the tiresome BASSA tub thumping that will involve, then BAPLA will implement our cost savings.
Negotiations since February? I depends upon your definition of negotiation? I would suggest that the 'no, no, no, now whats the question?' approach coupled with the schoolchild 'but why should we give up anything when they haven't given up anything' is not the art of skilled, intelligent negotiation. Your difficulties in this stem from your inability to negotiate in the past.
Now, stop ranting about how other, already 'leaned' (read no ridiculous bonus payments etc.) departments have managed to achieve their negotiations by the deadline and concentrate on getting a good deal for your members without the childish name calling.
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plank.
Come on, give us the nitty gritty. Just what has been said in those negotiations. Have you got the minutes? Were you there?
Or is this just more opinionated drivel. You are spouting the same old rhetoric, and I can find no other reason then, because you hate cabin crew/Bassa.
And the document I quote from is from a BA manager. BA state that negotiations have been in place since february, so perhaps you should not be asking bassa members what they mean by negotiations, but should redirect your question at BA IfCE management.
Come on, give us the nitty gritty. Just what has been said in those negotiations. Have you got the minutes? Were you there?
Or is this just more opinionated drivel. You are spouting the same old rhetoric, and I can find no other reason then, because you hate cabin crew/Bassa.
And the document I quote from is from a BA manager. BA state that negotiations have been in place since february, so perhaps you should not be asking bassa members what they mean by negotiations, but should redirect your question at BA IfCE management.
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Lots of huffing and puffing
GG
It must be the BASSA way, a good friend of mine was called up to a Hotel on The Bath Road the other day to provide some figures for "team BA" she witnessed BASSAs best negotiators threatening to kick each others heads in as she arrived in the car park
It seems that not only BASSA and BA are a jumbo jet apart, but even some of their finest can't see eye to eye
GG
I've been threatened on the CF
It seems that not only BASSA and BA are a jumbo jet apart, but even some of their finest can't see eye to eye
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Pib,
Sigh.....
Name calling? Rant? Hardly, just trying to get someone who is a BASSA supporter to explain the rational behind the BASSA negotiating mantra. The resort of name calling has never entered my posts, just my opinion on how BASSA have failed, constantly to represent their members.
PC767
Now, sorry, but where have you dragged this drivel up from? At no point have I ever had anything against CC. In fact, if you could be bothered to re-read back you will find that I have alot of respect for the Cabin Crew I work with. That will never change. As to BASSA, I find it difficult to have any respect for an organisation that proclaims to protect its members wishes whilst consistently withholding information from them and not involving the core membership group in decision making that affects them all.
Even on this board here we have seen CC who would jump at the chance of VR but, by heel dragging and obstructiveness it would seem that that opportunity is about to go. Unless BASSA manage to pull a rabbit out of a hat before the 30th. Somehow I doubt it but, hey, maybe.
My main point is that you (BASSA) still have some sort of misguided idea that the company is not in trouble. BASSA seem to think that the removal of WW will result in the land of milk and honey returning and all will be well again in BASSA land. To use the words of Alan Sugar, 'Ain't gonna happen'. The 'nitty gritty' of what was Project Columbus and is now on the table before BASSA is well known. Fixed hourly rate, fixed flying pay, removal of 'credits', no more lunch, CAT or dinner payments. Fixed links, tours, reduction of standby crews, overall reduction of CC personnel by 2000 jobs (not heads, jobs equating to 3500-4000 redundancies) removal of discomfort allowances, telephone allowances, night allowance etc.
Not difficult to surmise really as it is exactly what the flight crew gave up years ago. But then we are still too overpaid aren't we? We should give up everything we have so that BASSA doesn't have to use the word 'give'? Time to rationalise I'm afraid.
I have no gripes against the crew and I think BASSA has done them a grave disservice by allowing this situation to develop over the years.
Edit:
Forgot to add,
It seems that one can't have an opinion if it differs from the BASSA mantra as GlamGirl and Nuigini have sadly found out.
Now, what was that Bullying word again?
I'm sure that BA have been trying to negotiate but, from what I can gather it seems to have been a one sided negotiation with BASSA not present very often. Seem familiar?
Sigh.....
Name calling? Rant? Hardly, just trying to get someone who is a BASSA supporter to explain the rational behind the BASSA negotiating mantra. The resort of name calling has never entered my posts, just my opinion on how BASSA have failed, constantly to represent their members.
PC767
You are spouting the same old rhetoric, and I can find no other reason then, because you hate cabin crew/Bassa.
Even on this board here we have seen CC who would jump at the chance of VR but, by heel dragging and obstructiveness it would seem that that opportunity is about to go. Unless BASSA manage to pull a rabbit out of a hat before the 30th. Somehow I doubt it but, hey, maybe.
My main point is that you (BASSA) still have some sort of misguided idea that the company is not in trouble. BASSA seem to think that the removal of WW will result in the land of milk and honey returning and all will be well again in BASSA land. To use the words of Alan Sugar, 'Ain't gonna happen'. The 'nitty gritty' of what was Project Columbus and is now on the table before BASSA is well known. Fixed hourly rate, fixed flying pay, removal of 'credits', no more lunch, CAT or dinner payments. Fixed links, tours, reduction of standby crews, overall reduction of CC personnel by 2000 jobs (not heads, jobs equating to 3500-4000 redundancies) removal of discomfort allowances, telephone allowances, night allowance etc.
Not difficult to surmise really as it is exactly what the flight crew gave up years ago. But then we are still too overpaid aren't we? We should give up everything we have so that BASSA doesn't have to use the word 'give'? Time to rationalise I'm afraid.
I have no gripes against the crew and I think BASSA has done them a grave disservice by allowing this situation to develop over the years.
Edit:
Forgot to add,
Opinionated drivel
Now, what was that Bullying word again?
BA document, Negotiations have been underway since February
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I find it interesting that Bassa say they wont "bore you with the details"... Is this the same bassa that published a "leaked" project columbus document late on a friday night, as soon as they got it. the same that sent the lovely xmas (ww/grinch) news letter, and published the 31+ points to contract that BA wanted to change???.
My feeling is they are not saying anything now as they know they have backed the union and its members into a corner, from which they can not move and have nothing to say..
The meeting on the 6th will just be table banging about how bad BA is and how a strike is the only action now, after all Bassa, as they already know is dead
My feeling is they are not saying anything now as they know they have backed the union and its members into a corner, from which they can not move and have nothing to say..
The meeting on the 6th will just be table banging about how bad BA is and how a strike is the only action now, after all Bassa, as they already know is dead
Junior trash
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Apparantly BASSA were supposed to table their counter proposal this afternoon, but have not turned up to the meeting.
Willy is going to find this high court injunction a doddle.
Willy is going to find this high court injunction a doddle.
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Do not let a couple of idiots run this thread down. Some very reasoned responses by many. But what strikes me is that every time a question is asked by somebody the pro-BASSA's never ever come back with an answer???
Please answer me this:
Why has the complete deal between BALPA and BA that was given to your Leadership not been given out to its members. Why only half truths and snippets of the whole plan? Thereby giving the impression that we are not giving up anything at all!
Because having done my sums my paycut is just under 5%. A lot more than BASSA makes it out to be.
I cannot understand why such dishonesty is serving anyone any good unless one had an agenda to mold crew into a particular thought pattern!
Please answer me this:
Why has the complete deal between BALPA and BA that was given to your Leadership not been given out to its members. Why only half truths and snippets of the whole plan? Thereby giving the impression that we are not giving up anything at all!
Because having done my sums my paycut is just under 5%. A lot more than BASSA makes it out to be.
I cannot understand why such dishonesty is serving anyone any good unless one had an agenda to mold crew into a particular thought pattern!
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Seems some of the 'rubbish' has been moderated.
Whilst in the past I have thought the moderation was a bit 'fierce' I think it was very well judged in this case.
Thanks.
Perhap now we can carry on with a reasoned discussion without the vitriol.
Whilst in the past I have thought the moderation was a bit 'fierce' I think it was very well judged in this case.
Thanks.
Perhap now we can carry on with a reasoned discussion without the vitriol.
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Why has the complete deal between BALPA and BA that was given to your Leadership not been given out to its members. Why only half truths and snippets of the whole plan? Thereby giving the impression that we are not giving up anything at all!
I cannot understand why such dishonesty is serving anyone any good unless one had an agenda to mold crew into a particular thought pattern!
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What I would really like to know is: do any of you BASSA bashers who seem to adore BA and WW so much want to work for free to save your beloved BA and earn points with the management? Are you among the 3000 staff who have offered to work for free?
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And GlamGirl, how exactly have you been threatened or bullied by posters on CF? I see no evidence. Interesting in how in another post you mentioned to someone 'good luck on the dole queue.' Again, you seem to be doing what you accuse BASSA members of doing...insulting anyone who doesn't agree with you.
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Actually, Virginia, BBC News reports the following: "Almost 7,000 British Airways staff have applied for voluntary pay cuts"
Seems that unlike BASSA, quite a few people actually want the airline to survive, so that it can pay them a salary in the future.
The difference between what GG/Nuigini and others on here do, is that they are open to views and debate the pertinent issues, instead of ignoring the issues and trying to undermine the credibility of the posters instead, as die-hard BASSA supporters seem to do.
Seems that unlike BASSA, quite a few people actually want the airline to survive, so that it can pay them a salary in the future.
The difference between what GG/Nuigini and others on here do, is that they are open to views and debate the pertinent issues, instead of ignoring the issues and trying to undermine the credibility of the posters instead, as die-hard BASSA supporters seem to do.
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It seems that Bassa have one aim in this conflict, and it has very little to do with the terms and conditions of its members. It's all about power.
Under previous leadership teams, Bassa has wielded the power, aided by senior IFS management who wanted their department to grow to have a disproportionate influence within the company. The union called the shots, because it suited all parties. Our two previous CEOs didn't have the nerve, in their respective financial crises, to take on a union that had become virtually unmanageable and so acceded to their demands and intransigence. Not only did BA management not achieve any significant changes to IFS' cost base but the status of CSDs and their influence on board was actually enhanced, increasing costs yet further.
WW was recruited to take BA into T5 and to make BA competitive. He recognised where the vast bulk of inefficiencies lay and recruited a team to achieve those cuts. His new IFCE management has changed the balance of power in the IFCE/Bassa relationship, and Bassa don't like it, because they've never experienced it before.
WW has the nerve to take this through because he can see the rewards for BA at the end of the process. Bassa are scared witless because they see that they won't be the ones deciding whether flights can depart one down, whether a crew can continue to destination after disruption, and management won't be kowtowing to their every demand.
This is all about power and influence, and Bassa's wounded pride and status should not be a reason for the negotiations to fail. They should be bringing realistic 21st century agreements into this modern 21st century company.
Once they accept that their position within the company is not going to be what it was, then maybe the reps will start doing what their members are wanting them to do - striking a deal, not dealing with strikes.
Under previous leadership teams, Bassa has wielded the power, aided by senior IFS management who wanted their department to grow to have a disproportionate influence within the company. The union called the shots, because it suited all parties. Our two previous CEOs didn't have the nerve, in their respective financial crises, to take on a union that had become virtually unmanageable and so acceded to their demands and intransigence. Not only did BA management not achieve any significant changes to IFS' cost base but the status of CSDs and their influence on board was actually enhanced, increasing costs yet further.
WW was recruited to take BA into T5 and to make BA competitive. He recognised where the vast bulk of inefficiencies lay and recruited a team to achieve those cuts. His new IFCE management has changed the balance of power in the IFCE/Bassa relationship, and Bassa don't like it, because they've never experienced it before.
WW has the nerve to take this through because he can see the rewards for BA at the end of the process. Bassa are scared witless because they see that they won't be the ones deciding whether flights can depart one down, whether a crew can continue to destination after disruption, and management won't be kowtowing to their every demand.
This is all about power and influence, and Bassa's wounded pride and status should not be a reason for the negotiations to fail. They should be bringing realistic 21st century agreements into this modern 21st century company.
Once they accept that their position within the company is not going to be what it was, then maybe the reps will start doing what their members are wanting them to do - striking a deal, not dealing with strikes.
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And GlamGirl, how exactly have you been threatened or bullied by posters on CF? I see no evidence.
What I would really like to know is: do any of you BASSA bashers who seem to adore BA and WW so much want to work for free to save your beloved BA and earn points with the management? Are you among the 3000 staff who have offered to work for free?
It might be hard for some of you to believe but there are actually some of us in great concern of our jobs. If an agreement is not reached before the deadline the **** will hit the fan and many innocent crew will be affected by the arrogance and selfishness of others. Why is that hard to understand?
I haven't applied to work for free but for part-time. I am convinced that these offers will be taken away from us if an agreement isn't reached until Tuesday.
Why are you concerned Virginia? I would have thought that you had handed in your resignation?
Last edited by nuigini; 25th Jun 2009 at 15:24.
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Wow....
I'm joining the debate late on but here goes:
Virginia,
If you are a CF member you'll see that Gg was threatened... but the post was modified as apparently it was 'beneath' the original poster to make such statements!!!!! that makes it ok now eh?
I'm a pilot: I do not 'hate' crew or 'hate' BASSA etc. However I cannot say the same about my CC colleagues about us. Don't get me wrong, the vast majority of the crew I work with are great and I have had some great trips - even recently. What does get me down, is that if you do have an 'alternative' view to the BASSA mantra then suddenly you are the 'centre of anger'!!! how childish!!!!
My wife is crew, and everyday she comes home with a new story of how 'the rich pilots are robbing the poor CC'. When she tells the crew involved that she has seen the BALPA document and that we are in fact taking a pay cut etc she gets accused of fibbing etc........
On my trips when I'm asked to join the discussion (I call it pilot baiting: get a pilot to talk about what HE/SHE thinks about the CC situation, then write on CF/BASSA forum how brave you are for taking on a 'Nigel') all I do know is state fact (which apparently are different to BASSA FACT!)
All I ask now is: why has BASSA not shown you the actually BALPA agreement? you know the one my reps gave to your union before they gave it to me?
One reply was: BASSA have not got BALPAs 'private' document..........
so I gave the CC mine.....
still apparently I was a 'crew hater'
The best discussion was with a purser who said she would rather bankrupt the company then give in as she couldn't afford the BA proposals.....
I did mention that she would then not have a job.... but apparently that's better the BA 'winning'
never mind
I can't be bothered anymore!!!
SS
I'm joining the debate late on but here goes:
Virginia,
If you are a CF member you'll see that Gg was threatened... but the post was modified as apparently it was 'beneath' the original poster to make such statements!!!!! that makes it ok now eh?
I'm a pilot: I do not 'hate' crew or 'hate' BASSA etc. However I cannot say the same about my CC colleagues about us. Don't get me wrong, the vast majority of the crew I work with are great and I have had some great trips - even recently. What does get me down, is that if you do have an 'alternative' view to the BASSA mantra then suddenly you are the 'centre of anger'!!! how childish!!!!
My wife is crew, and everyday she comes home with a new story of how 'the rich pilots are robbing the poor CC'. When she tells the crew involved that she has seen the BALPA document and that we are in fact taking a pay cut etc she gets accused of fibbing etc........
On my trips when I'm asked to join the discussion (I call it pilot baiting: get a pilot to talk about what HE/SHE thinks about the CC situation, then write on CF/BASSA forum how brave you are for taking on a 'Nigel') all I do know is state fact (which apparently are different to BASSA FACT!)
All I ask now is: why has BASSA not shown you the actually BALPA agreement? you know the one my reps gave to your union before they gave it to me?
One reply was: BASSA have not got BALPAs 'private' document..........
so I gave the CC mine.....
still apparently I was a 'crew hater'
The best discussion was with a purser who said she would rather bankrupt the company then give in as she couldn't afford the BA proposals.....
I did mention that she would then not have a job.... but apparently that's better the BA 'winning'
never mind
I can't be bothered anymore!!!
SS
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Re-Heat, I suggest that you get your facts right before posting.
It's 800 out of 40,000 who have volunteered to work for free. 4000 have taken unpaid LEAVE and 1,400 are to work part-time. The latter 2 are to benefit the workers themselves, especially amongst cabin crew many want part-time and many are happy to take unpaid leave. Working for free is different matter entirely.
It's 800 out of 40,000 who have volunteered to work for free. 4000 have taken unpaid LEAVE and 1,400 are to work part-time. The latter 2 are to benefit the workers themselves, especially amongst cabin crew many want part-time and many are happy to take unpaid leave. Working for free is different matter entirely.
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BASSA Supporter
Yes Classic, and Walsh had the nerve to take on the unions at Aer Lingus, threatening them with doom and gloom after 9/11, got the concessions he wanted and then in 2003-04 the company made a huge profit on the back of their financial sacrifices.
However it has been downhill ever since.
He is not going to ransack BA's staff in the same manner. We WILL take him on and it will be a fight to the death. So the negotiations had better be constructive, sincere, meaningful and successful.
However it has been downhill ever since.
He is not going to ransack BA's staff in the same manner. We WILL take him on and it will be a fight to the death. So the negotiations had better be constructive, sincere, meaningful and successful.