BA and Project Columbus III

[Poof in Boots]

BASSA Supporter

It is not an "argument", it is a debate.

There is a difference.

[overstress]

PiB's contributions sound so uncannily similar to SP's, they could be the same person, but what they have in common is a peculiarly distorted view of the world which I found endemic to many crew when I joined BA over a decade ago.

The focusing on WW as a personality, endless harping on about his track record is all very well. But this isn't The Apprentice where someone points a gun and says "You're fired". Walsh is in the driving seat and he will be doing the pointing and there will be a lot of pain.

The BASSA view seems a long way from the facts I read in the financial pages and the company results.

Romans44, if you are crew and you feel 'singled out' it may be because most other groups have taken their medicine and are now looking forward to the recovery. BASSA are refusing to listen to economic reality. You are so far out of touch you have already been left behind, I fear that your chance to sort things amicably has already passed. You will have notice on your contracts next week, I reckon, all in one fell swoop.

Several posters on here have been trying to warn you. BASSA are like holidaymakers on the beach before a Tsunami - the sun is shining but it's gone quiet, the water has disappeared, no one has realised why, and in a short while, it will be back in a very large and destructive wave.

The other employment groups, meanwhile, have heeded the warnings and already paddled out into the ocean. They will only notice the Tsunami as a slight disturbance....

[Da Dog]

PiB said

Please understand that Walsh was/is a past master at brinkmanship when he was an IALPA rep

and so far he has been doing rather well again, ever since the "leak" of the Columbus document.

[Hotel Mode]

It is not an "argument", it is a debate.

In a debate, you respond to the points made though, PiB. You're not.

[Hotel Mode]

So, Again.

1. Why have BASSA not polled the membership on how they would like to go forward?

2. Why have BASSA not seen/acted on the independent auditors report on BAs financial status?

3. Why has BASSA not been turning up to negotiations so close to the deadline?

4. Why did the BASSA leadership withold key info about the pilots deal?

[overstress]

I gather that BASSA failed to show up today at a meeting to present their counter-proposals.

If I was a BASSA member I'd want to know why.

Is this some sort of perceived brinkmanship where BASSA show BA just how important they are by not showing up, like a Hollywood diva at a press interview?

[PC767]

To clarify why Bassa have not released details of the company's proposals.

From Bill Francis email to cabin crew. 25/06/09.

Since then I have been in discussion with your unions and I know many of you are keen to know how these talks are going.

I am sure you will understand that I cannot say too much at the moment because we have agreed with Unite that we will keep the details private during the talks. This is to give us the best possible chance of reaching agreement before our June 30 deadline.

Can we now stop challenging why this info is not in the public/crew domain.

[Poof in Boots]

BASSA Supporter

You have no idea what is going on OverStress, so please don't pretend you do.

Bill Francis the Head of IFCE wrote to all BA's cabin crew today. He said that he has been in discussions with the unions, nowhere did he say that no one failed to turn up at any time. So as I have said before, just nonsense and drivel by the Flight Crew attack dogs here. (Know who you are?)

There are no details as agreed between BA and UNITE. The union did present its first written proposal today.

So we shall see.

[Glamgirl]

pc767,

The reason we asked why Lizanne didn't feel it necessary to publish the latest "offer" was because she put in the news letter that she didn't want to bore you with the nitty gritty. Surely you can understand the questions surrounding this?

Gg

[overstress]

You have no idea what is going on OverStress, so please don't pretend you do.

As you have no idea who I am, or who I know, that is a rather pointless statement.

BASSA failed to attend talks today. That is a fact.

[Matt101]

Confused

Okay, I've been fairly noncommittal so far on this thread, as I know, and have friends in BASSA back at BA, but I have to say that, as I still receive the daily email from BASSA and as an ex member still have access to read over "Crew Forum", my blood really did reach a point close to boiling today.

I was, a proud, BASSA member. I thought I saw that they stood for the same values I used to when I was a Union rep before coming to BA. Last time the gloves came off, so to speak, over a list of points - which now I forget - I let myself get swept along with it to the point that I thought I would happily have brought the Bacon Butties to the Picket line. I have never thought of myself as unintelligent or gullible so I asked myself why, (having realised now how petty that argument was), I got so entangled in the IA machine. Well I will tell you why, BASSA have one very strong skill - and that is winding up their membership.

They're doing exactly the same this time. Reading through CF you will see far more hatred directed towards the flight crew than you will ever have seen levied upon the Cabin Crew on this forum. Instead of the points about the Union (BASSA), and the out dated agreements that are raised here, you see pure venom and unsubstantiated drivel. I don't understand it. I believe BA Cabin Crew to be amongst the best in the world and indeed a highly intelligent bunch but it seems this whole issue has some riled up into a frenzy you would expect from children fighting over the best toy at play group.

As I see it what the company has asked for (and what has been suggested here) is thus:

A re-negotiation of the disruption agreement so that every time LHR is fog bound the following of industrial agreements does not lead to a bill running into the millions for BA.

Looking into making the old fleets more productive i.e. cutting down on duty hours on WW and increasing Flight hours on EF.

A new fleet which will eventually replace the old fleets as natural attrition reduces their man power. (This I agree needs to be handled carefully).

Other than that there is scope to re-examine some other things such as crew compliments which was inevitable given BASSA's slip at LGW.

Nobody, so far as we are aware, has suggested a Pay Cut or a reduction in allowances (though maybe a restructuring of them to make them more predictable would be wise).

Nobody wants to see people out of work/in the dole queue/facing foreclosure on their mortgage etc.

None of these points seem entirely unreasonable and yet anyone who seems to agree that maybe they are points which can be worked from is either Willy Walsh in disguise or deserves a punch in the nose or is "not fit to be in charge of an aircraft".

Ridiculous, and highly disappointing! (I don't know what else to say!)

(Though I will reiterate I don't want to see anybody suffer but in these hard times surely a bit of give is necessary? Maybe though as I am now on the evil side of the door I have ceased to be of any relevance).

[HiFlyer14]

I will vote NO to Strike!

There are some excellent balanced and informative posts on here from cc, pilots and passengers. Any intelligent, reasonable crew member can see it makes a refreshing change from CrewForum, BASSA or even ESS which has now degenerated into Get Willie Out chanting (no pun intended). Shouldn't we ignore the rantings from the BASSA camp, and channel all the level-headedness and logical thinking to find a way to harness the voices of the non-militant crew who do want to save this company? If we leave it until the ballot time comes, it may be too late.

TorC and Andy – I fully understand why you feel the need to resign from BASSA but you will lose your right to vote and that vote is going to be important! Please rejoin either branch of UNITE just to get a vote

As time is running out, we need to focus on finding a solution rather than simply debating the problem. This is the only forum that may just be able to help us do that.

[Hotel Mode]

I just want to reiterate as i probably said on page 2 of this thread or something. Nobody here wants CC to lose major amounts of cash, its yours, your union fought for it etc. What we just cannot get is the total refusal to look at any permanant changes. Stuff like the disruption agreement and low productivity on shorthaul would save millions and millions, lose the 16th crew member on MRU etc, maybe make the CSD join the service like very other airline, get a sensible hourly rate, and with it a bidding system and yet more money is saved and I promise you nobody would notice a change in lifestyle. Instead all you get is secrecy, pointless circular arguments but never any facts.

I really hope BASSA has a plan here, because you can be damn sure Willy does, and he is ruthless.

[Glamgirl]

Matt101,

Thank you for your last post. You talk a huge amount of sense (as do others on this thread).

I have to completely agree about the venom and hostility towards company, flight crew, managers and any other random non-Bassa person.

It's such a shame, really, that they really can't see what they're doing.

Gg

[Matt101]

Well GG I just think you and some others on here (Cabin Crew) as well as the flight crew/non flying staff who present an alternative view point are getting a rather bum wrap on CF - in fact I think it is down right nasty - As a rule I don't usually rant unless I think there is something that needs to be said! (Something needed to be said! lol).

If anyone from CF is reading I am happy for you to paste my post to that forum and let me know and debate it there with you. So long as you're nice.

[From Tunbridge Wells]

hello, my first post - be gentle please!
I'm a lurker usually on crew forum but I can't believe the animosity displayed there to anyone who dares disagree with the "popular" take on things. However, I think I'm not alone (loads don't post but lurk - I watched the gang picking on people who dare have an original thought) and thanks to someone there high-lighting this thread, I expect you'll see more of us here. It does seem a more sane place and respectful of others opinions

[overstress]

FTW: welcome to PPRuNe, the truth is on here, a lot of nonsense as well, but you will also find facts. True ones!

[Dawdler]

Another lurker here. The attitudes of some posters here remind me of the rants of "Red Robbo" in the big British Leyland dispute decades ago. I hope wiser heads will prevail and remember that the ultimate result of that dispute was the failure of the company. It still rankles with me that some union representatives almost seemed to regard that as a success! They were in possession of industrial agreements which were past their time, of which they were not prepared to let go. Intransigence in attitude used against a company in trouble can have only one outcome.

Negotiation is just that, some give and take is necessary to overcome (hopefully) temporary difficulties. I note that some BA employees have agreed to work unpaid/ time off without pay in order to help preserve the company for which they work. I suspect that some of the correspondents on this thread are not amongst them.

They may end up not having a job to protect.

[Glamgirl]

FTW and Dawdler,

Welcome on board! Good to "see" fresh faces here.

Gg

[wobble2plank]

The sad thing is that BASSA seem to be attempting to tell their entire membership that is it impossible that BA go bankrupt and the recession is not as bad as WW makes it out to be.

From 'Times Online' about Corus, formally British Steel:

Corus cuts another 2,000 jobs amid union fears for UK steelmaking

Corus has already shed about 2,500 jobs this year after mothballing a mill in South Wales and restructuring several parts of its business, to counter a 50 per cent fall in demand for steel from its peak because of the global recession. Kirby Adams, chief executive, said it was vital to act now, given that any recovery in Europe appeared to be “some time off”.

(My bold)

Even Unite is accepting of the problems:

John Rowse, Unite’s national officer, said: “The situation for Corus and British manufacturing is too serious to stand idly by. Unless there is urgent support from the Government, British manufacturing will come out of recession hamstrung and unable to compete in the world economy.”

So, can the Government bail out every failing business? Nope. They have offered Corus £5 million in 'training support', how long would that last BA?

BASSA harp on about the destruction of contracts, the inability to live off of what BA are offering. For a start I very much doubt those statements. Sure the adjustment will be painful but sustainable. As has been pointed out many, many times before on this thread, this adjustment is little more than what other departments have done slowly and less painfully over the past 5 years. Those departments are already at the point BA want CC to be.

Consider however the possible consequences of ill informed and illogical IA. There are, as far as I can see three alternatives with varying degrees of probability.

1)At the bottom of the success probability scale is that the board see the IA as a direct attack on the girls and boys of the CC department and as PiB has alluded to, we can't have sexist bullying. So they sack the demon known as WW and the world returns to the land of milk and honey. First Class Pax and rich business men flock back through the doors of T5 in droves and off we go with a more BASSA malleable CEO at the helm.

Probability of success? 0.0000000001%

2) IA is called, WW activates his back pocket SOSR legal plan and the P45's start flooding into the post. The union call foul and demands an employment Tribunal. BA agrees but ties it up in legal red tape for 2-3 years. In the mean time, with forward bookings down over the winter, routes being trimmed and aircraft laid up, no slot flying restrictions and being cheaper not to fly than to fly, the company activates 2000+ temporary 11 month contract CC. Welcome to no job, long ET with a punitive payment at the end.

Probability of success? 85-90%

3) IA called, forward bookings drop to zero, the city loses all confidence in BA as an investment opportunity. Suppliers demand cash up front as IA has destroyed to forward going viability of the company. Cash reserves plummet on the costs. Share prices nosedive and a corporate hostile buyout ensues. ALL contracts of ALL 40,000 employees get reviews. Those that are militant get booted out. Pension disappears (investors payback) and the remaining 20-25,000 employees get allocated new contracts. All because BASSA would rather bring the company down than accept change like the pathetic, childish entity that it it. I wonder what the forward working environment would be like? Frosty one would assume.

Probability of success? 10%

So, to all on the CC forum that I am sure this will be cut and pasted, the idea of IA is, possibly ill advised. WW will have a legal plan in his back pocket. Irrespective of what he has done previously it is my firm belief that the board have him in the position he is in now as CEO for exactly this reason and he WILL NOT SQUANDER IT!

The pain will be borne by all in the company and the backlash could last many, many years.

Don't let a petulant union drag you to the brink of disaster. It looks nasty now and only a few days to sort it out. If BASSA could be bothered to turn up. The only hope is that Unite, who obviously have a grip on what is happening in the real world, give BASSA a good shake and tell them to grow up. Until then your union is putting your jobs on the line with the minimum of communication, for whatever reason, and no sight of any of the adjustments BA is demanding.

Remember, when bashing BALPA, BALPA kept all of its members informed through forums, newsletters, meetings, podcasts etc. We knew exactly the cost savings required at all points along the process. Members were polled on the subject of VR and then negotiations tailored to achieve the members wishes. Does this sound familiar? Nope. Instead BASSA announce a meeting after the deadline and a news blackout? Great.

I'm sure salient points will be cherry picked for the Bassa forum but here is the whole post. Enjoy.

As to those CC who are as aghast at the inept handling of this by BASSA as the other departments are. I really feel for you all and I hope against hope that this can get sorted in an adult manner to the benefit of both sides. BA is a great company to work for and I hope it can continue so without a few rotten apples from BASSA spoiling the load.

I await the BASSA forum foot soldiers 'constructive' criticism.