BA and Project Columbus III
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Crunchy ; The ground staff are getting our backsides kicked and our T and C's have, are and will change. Like yourselves they are not to our advantage and in many cases will lead to pay cuts. The proposed ground staff contracts all feature difficult performance trargets which in many areas are extremely difficult to achieve. I wish us all well.
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Yes and so do I. BASSA have fought our corner in many cases. I wish everyone in BA well. All I'm saying, is that as individuals in our own departments, its natural to defend your own position. I do think though, that this is one battle we will find very hard to win. 
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Hey Crunchy
I think now is the time to pressure the union to find out or to develop a strategy for change for the good of us all, not just those at the top.
Lets face it, could we easiy earn the same money outside BA? Hell no!! There are CAA figures I have seen that show us costing twice what it costs Virgin to employ its cabin crew. Its supposedly an average figure, but no wonder Willie is especially after us.
We need to negotiate our way out of this, or I fear it will be 90 days notice and new contracts for us all.
I think now is the time to pressure the union to find out or to develop a strategy for change for the good of us all, not just those at the top.
Lets face it, could we easiy earn the same money outside BA? Hell no!! There are CAA figures I have seen that show us costing twice what it costs Virgin to employ its cabin crew. Its supposedly an average figure, but no wonder Willie is especially after us.
We need to negotiate our way out of this, or I fear it will be 90 days notice and new contracts for us all.
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Simeng, that is terrible, i didnt realise we had been so protected these years!! And you guys must be so specialised and difficult to replace. I wonder what the legal minimum time to train one of us just to do doors, evacuations and PA's is? Any ideas anyone?
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don't underestimate your value to the company.you do not just open doors and serve food and drinks.you take care of our customers for hours on end.
Last edited by bermudatriangle; 18th Apr 2009 at 09:08.
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Yes, Bermudatriangle, but what you originally wrote, and what appears now is the same for cc anywhere.
We have been rewarded handsomely, but with the economy the way it is now, how can we expect to be paid the same?
If the revenue is not coming in like it used to, how can they continue to reward us like they used to?
We have been rewarded handsomely, but with the economy the way it is now, how can we expect to be paid the same?
If the revenue is not coming in like it used to, how can they continue to reward us like they used to?
Last edited by imastweardsothere; 18th Apr 2009 at 10:11.
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The way I see it going - and this is not necessarily what I agree with or think is a great idea, but just what will happen, is that the majority of crew will vote to strike. I think we all know that dont we?
Nobody enjoys a strike. Its just an awful and nasty experience that usually leaves both sides licking their wounds. I fear, we are really going to be licking very big wounds this time as BA have us where they want us, but neither can they afford a strike. That type of action right now, is just not an option for them so they're not exactly in the best position in the current climate for a costly battle with crew.
It'll get called off at the 11th hour. The new fleet will go ahead (we know that's a forgone conclusion), and BASSA will have to negotiate for better t&c's. It's never going to be as good as the current contracts, but neither should it be as shocking as their proposal.
This business of serving 90s notice is absolutely spot on. Yes they could do it, but legistically, no they can't and anyone can figure that one out.
We all know every department in BA is being hit, but CC are being hit the hardest. We have a big union behind as. We are a very large community so we can be heard.
I have many friends in other departments within the airline, including ground staff - whom are treated abysmally, engineers, pilots and office staff - even CCM's!! I wish and hope your own unions can and will fight your corners too.
And, when I say these things like 'fight your corner' I don't mean to bring the airline down or anything stupid like that.
Do I want any of the above? No. Am I happy about it? No. Do the other 13000 odd crew at LHR? No. Would anyone like it no matter who they are or where they work? Of course not!! Are we going to fight tooth and nail - naturally! Will we win - probably not! Let just hope the outcome isn't too painful.
It pains me to admit it, but, like others here who might share a similar opinion, that's what large companies do.
Nobody enjoys a strike. Its just an awful and nasty experience that usually leaves both sides licking their wounds. I fear, we are really going to be licking very big wounds this time as BA have us where they want us, but neither can they afford a strike. That type of action right now, is just not an option for them so they're not exactly in the best position in the current climate for a costly battle with crew.
It'll get called off at the 11th hour. The new fleet will go ahead (we know that's a forgone conclusion), and BASSA will have to negotiate for better t&c's. It's never going to be as good as the current contracts, but neither should it be as shocking as their proposal.
This business of serving 90s notice is absolutely spot on. Yes they could do it, but legistically, no they can't and anyone can figure that one out.
We all know every department in BA is being hit, but CC are being hit the hardest. We have a big union behind as. We are a very large community so we can be heard.
I have many friends in other departments within the airline, including ground staff - whom are treated abysmally, engineers, pilots and office staff - even CCM's!! I wish and hope your own unions can and will fight your corners too.
And, when I say these things like 'fight your corner' I don't mean to bring the airline down or anything stupid like that.
Do I want any of the above? No. Am I happy about it? No. Do the other 13000 odd crew at LHR? No. Would anyone like it no matter who they are or where they work? Of course not!! Are we going to fight tooth and nail - naturally! Will we win - probably not! Let just hope the outcome isn't too painful.
It pains me to admit it, but, like others here who might share a similar opinion, that's what large companies do.
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This business of serving 90s notice is absolutely spot on. Yes they could do it, but legistically, no they can't and anyone can figure that one out.
Both are illegal (in the case of the former, assuming someone else is subsequently employed in the same role) but the maximum compensation claim for the former is significantly less than for the latter and it would take a lot of time through the courts for it to be sorted out (believe me, BA can drag their feet for years if they want to). Would BA gamble that not many people would have the time or money to fight in the courts?
Mods: Not trying to pick a fight but suggesting another potential outcome.
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The Employment Relations Act 2004 introduces a new provision which changes the length and scope of the protected period for industrial action. For industrial action commencing on or after 6 April 2005, the length of “protected” industrial action is extended from eight to twelve weeks. Lock-out days, where an employer prevents striking employees from returning to work, are disregarded when determining this twelve week period. For example, where an employer locks out employees taking “protected” industrial action, for ten days, during the twelve week period, the twelve week period will be extended by ten days.
Employees who believe they have been unfairly dismissed in this way have the right to complain to an employment tribunal, regardless of their length of service or age.
Employees who believe they have been unfairly dismissed in this way have the right to complain to an employment tribunal, regardless of their length of service or age.
I hope we do not end in Industrial Action. As many crew prefer seeking answers across the table. As price of a strike is more than the saving's we have been asked to achieve.
I also do not believe, you would loose your job, should industrial action take place.
BA cannot afford to shut down for any length of time. Any Industrial Action if sort, needs to be legally justified, and would be time limited. There is alot of scare mongering going on and around from all sides..
Bringing BA into the 21st Century ... is quite complex.
We have so many varying contracts that exist within CC community.. British Airways is also heavily Unionised. Unite and GMB and Bassa will most likely join forces in preventing British Airways from making a drastic cuts to staff incomes. British Airways does nevertheless need to cut it's costs. There are many ways a company can cut cost's and also many solutions. Nevertheless all areas of the business need to be proactive in this change. I do think our attitudes, do need to be more realistic with the current climate, as many people in and outside the UK are facing job cuts and redundancy, or looking for any type of work. This is a global recession.
I do think British Airways needs to improve its transparency and it's relationship with the staff who drive its business. The whole way Coloumbus came out, and the way Management handled the leaked information was poor and has caused so much mistrust and anger. No one has confidence in WW or the IFC Management Team. The truth always lies somewhere between BA Management and BASSA.
Those crew, who currently enjoy contracts prior to 1997, or have more than 25 years service. May be happy to seek alternative pastures if offered a reasonable incentive through serverance. I sure this would have savings for the company over a period of time. But I am not an accountant.
Yes, mixed flying is most likely a good way to increase crew productivity. Eurofleet would need to be part of this new structure for it to real make a difference. Thus, BA would be able to increase the flying hours of Short Haul Crews to 900 a year instead of current average of around 700. As with the demise of the 757, crews would be able to hold another license. This may also allow the company to reduce is crew heads, another form of cost savings. Mix flying could be good for crewlifestyles if promoted with an improved bidding system. Mix flying can also be brought in with out making huge changes to current terms and conditions. This is what is stopping most Eurofleet crew from entertaining the idea.
We must not forget we need to retain, good customer service and good crews, our premium passengers pay alot to travel with us, so we want to attract crews that are serious about onboard safety and the well being of our passengers. We also need to care about our crew. I know what I was like at 18, .... A more mature and experienced in-charge crew is better for both the Company and the passenger.
We also need to look at some areas where things have changed, and are prehaps outdated. For instance we do not need 4 crew on a 319 that only has 50 passengers onboard, we could do the service with 3.
Prehaps the CSD, needs to have more of defined role. i.e Working role in First on WW. A hourly paid job contract needs to be explored to see if crews would be still be able to attain a reasonable wage.
The current proposals are unreasonable, but there is always a middle path. The savings may come in from the administration of this new contract. As currently the administration of an allowance base system is expensive.
I do not want anyone to loose their jobs, and quite happy to endure a pay freeze or even reduce working days to allow, all crew to go home and place food on the table. If people need to go. I hope we seek to find these reductions from natural retirement and non replacement of those leaving or voluntary serverance.
Future crews should not come in on different contracts, they are not less worthy of a liveable wage than I am. I do know our Unions have given BA Millions in temporary saving's opportunities, to help BA during this current downturn. I think BA should accept this, with the proviso that Unions will seriously explore other ways of making cost savings for the future, this could be in exploring of the payments systems. The above is just my personal outlook. I too will relying on BASSA to look after my future.
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Twrecks and Crunchy
I think I can guess the era you are from.
Twecks says "BA cannot afford to shut down for any length of time"...........how long can you afford to go on strike for? You expect it to be called off at the eleventh hour...........what if it isnt?
You suggest those employed prior to 97 or with 25 or more years service could be offered severance.....that would be age discriminatory, and hence it would have to be offered to all.
Have a look at the CAA's website, and you can see why we as a worforce are burdened with an unsustainable cost base. We have inflated our salaries, and particularly our allowances system to the point that we cost more than twice as much as cc at Virgin.
Sadly that is unsustainable. We must change.
I think I can guess the era you are from.
Twecks says "BA cannot afford to shut down for any length of time"...........how long can you afford to go on strike for? You expect it to be called off at the eleventh hour...........what if it isnt?
You suggest those employed prior to 97 or with 25 or more years service could be offered severance.....that would be age discriminatory, and hence it would have to be offered to all.
Have a look at the CAA's website, and you can see why we as a worforce are burdened with an unsustainable cost base. We have inflated our salaries, and particularly our allowances system to the point that we cost more than twice as much as cc at Virgin.
Sadly that is unsustainable. We must change.
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Dear soimastewardsowhat, I think I've made my stance quite clear. I suggest you read twrecks post again. It is an excellent post and I agree with it entirely. In answer to your other questions pertaining to budgets etc, please go to the BASSA website.
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The difficulty faced by BASSA is that the company are after permanent cost savings not short term savings to avoid a bun fight and then have the same old story in a few years.
Just the threat of industrial action costs the whole company money. The rumblings through the press already will be having a negative effect on the forward bookings over the summer. Possibly offset by the worry of travelling with a smaller airline that might go bust.
I think WW has finally had enough and decided that now is the correct climate to solve this prickly issue once and for all. After all, this has been dragging on for quite some time now.
I think the plea to 'accept short term measures now' will fall on very deaf ears. Don't forget that the company has the right to withdraw your contract with 'adequate' (read 90 days) notice.
Just the threat of industrial action costs the whole company money. The rumblings through the press already will be having a negative effect on the forward bookings over the summer. Possibly offset by the worry of travelling with a smaller airline that might go bust.
I think WW has finally had enough and decided that now is the correct climate to solve this prickly issue once and for all. After all, this has been dragging on for quite some time now.
I think the plea to 'accept short term measures now' will fall on very deaf ears. Don't forget that the company has the right to withdraw your contract with 'adequate' (read 90 days) notice.
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Hi imastweardsothere,
I and Crunchy and many of the CC who voice concern's on this forum or debate issues do so, because we enjoy our jobs, but we are not doormats...as BermudaTraingle said......
In addition to this we...
Give up 365 days of the year, remain constanly on call via availables and 24 hour standby, have no guarantee of a christmas off, or leave in any summer period. Work in a pressurised cabin, at a voluntary cost to our long term health. Live out of a suitcase, spend our live's paying the odds for meals in different venues, spend nights alone in hotel rooms around the world. Having no or little control over our lifestyles. Work shifts , work through the night, fight off fatigue and jet lag. Be constantly on time, be flexiable, and not forgetting .. if we have an emergency, will save a load of people ahead of ourselves.
Yes, we do have a value, it's not just to feed the flight deck.
Do not under estimate the Cabin Crew Community's worth. We are the face of British Airways, often the first contact a customer has with a real human being after his online check-in. WW and his Waterworld latte team, are playing a dangerous game at the expense of British Airways customers and shareholders. ( Me being one). It may be prudent that he start looking for his next post.
Do not assume Cabin Crew will strike, or are not open to negotiation through our Unions. Do not assume that I am on the old contract. However, be assured that CC Community will not sit by quietly, and let WW steamroll our T&C and industrial agreements, which have been introduced to protect the cabin crew from being over worked, in an enviroment where safetly should not be comprised.
Are you cabin crew or are you just fishing... ?
In answer to your last post. BA has in the past has given voluntary serverance to a defined group of people, either by date of joining, fleet, seniority or grade. It is not age discrimination, its an opportunity for those who qualify.
British Airways is a Premium airline offering an Upgraded experience...
.
I remain proud of my Airline, just not currently happy with the man at the top.
I and Crunchy and many of the CC who voice concern's on this forum or debate issues do so, because we enjoy our jobs, but we are not doormats...as BermudaTraingle said......
don't underestimate your value to the company.you do not just open doors and serve food and drinks.you take care the of our customers for hours on end.
In addition to this we...
Give up 365 days of the year, remain constanly on call via availables and 24 hour standby, have no guarantee of a christmas off, or leave in any summer period. Work in a pressurised cabin, at a voluntary cost to our long term health. Live out of a suitcase, spend our live's paying the odds for meals in different venues, spend nights alone in hotel rooms around the world. Having no or little control over our lifestyles. Work shifts , work through the night, fight off fatigue and jet lag. Be constantly on time, be flexiable, and not forgetting .. if we have an emergency, will save a load of people ahead of ourselves.
Yes, we do have a value, it's not just to feed the flight deck.
Do not under estimate the Cabin Crew Community's worth. We are the face of British Airways, often the first contact a customer has with a real human being after his online check-in. WW and his Waterworld latte team, are playing a dangerous game at the expense of British Airways customers and shareholders. ( Me being one). It may be prudent that he start looking for his next post.
Do not assume Cabin Crew will strike, or are not open to negotiation through our Unions. Do not assume that I am on the old contract. However, be assured that CC Community will not sit by quietly, and let WW steamroll our T&C and industrial agreements, which have been introduced to protect the cabin crew from being over worked, in an enviroment where safetly should not be comprised.
Are you cabin crew or are you just fishing... ?
In answer to your last post. BA has in the past has given voluntary serverance to a defined group of people, either by date of joining, fleet, seniority or grade. It is not age discrimination, its an opportunity for those who qualify.
British Airways is a Premium airline offering an Upgraded experience...
. I remain proud of my Airline, just not currently happy with the man at the top.
Last edited by Twrecks; 18th Apr 2009 at 17:25.
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Well if it comes to strike action can you make sure that the crews know what they are striking for ,and what striking means . In this day and age it is easy to say lets strike, but the majority of the crews probably dont realise what this entails being of an age group that dont remember the late 70s and 80s . I expect the thought of strike action sounds fun to them now, but when they have to man the braziers expect more crew phoning in sick than manning the barricades just like last time! I am not saying that you shouldnt fight for your T&Cs,but if BASSA go for strike action then they are going to have to make sure that the crews are fully behind the action, and not just ticking a box on a ballot paper because thats what is expected of them and understand what that tick means , if not then strike action will be a waste of time and Willie will have won .
Last edited by marlowe; 18th Apr 2009 at 18:04.
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I think the vast majority of BA crew have been through a number of strikes and know only too well what it involves. You are also right though, there is a generation of BA crew who do not realise what a strike is like and I agree that BASSA should have everyone fully informed.
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I think the vast majority of BA crew have been through a number of strikes and know only too well what it involves
As I recall the last actual downing of tools was in 1997? for 3 days?
As such I think the 'vast' majority haven't a clue about what it involves. The vast majority think that a 'yes' vote means that they can throw a sickie and be immune. They should be under no illusion as to what it really means - the letters posted to home addresses detailing personal liabilities for company losses, the implications for (lack of) future employment; you name it. I suggest that my colleagues ask their union about these facts. Throwing a 'sickie' will not work this time, you need real representation, with proper negotiation from your 'elected' reps.