BA and Project Columbus III
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 200
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
LHR will have to follow the LGW model. As everyone says if you need to cut costs you need to cut staff.
If LGW and operate with less staff per plane why can't Heathrow?
Good luck with the strike CFC if you've got no union to look after you.
I'm not a fan of WW but he's the only one at the moment who is willing to shake things up and doesn't really care what you think!
How do you think VS is surviving? Through BA's mistakes?
VS may not pay well but this is probably why they are in better shape than BA.
You have to remember all you cabin crew that may go on strike there is plenty of young and experienced people willing to jump into your shoes for less money.
I may not have first hand experience of LHR or LGW but from the outside it's easy to see where things are going wrong!!
Glamgirl is one of the few that makes sense when she's posts!
Sorry to say and I feel sorry for the most of you but if I was LHR I would be very worried.
If LGW and operate with less staff per plane why can't Heathrow?
Good luck with the strike CFC if you've got no union to look after you.
I'm not a fan of WW but he's the only one at the moment who is willing to shake things up and doesn't really care what you think!
How do you think VS is surviving? Through BA's mistakes?
VS may not pay well but this is probably why they are in better shape than BA.
You have to remember all you cabin crew that may go on strike there is plenty of young and experienced people willing to jump into your shoes for less money.
I may not have first hand experience of LHR or LGW but from the outside it's easy to see where things are going wrong!!
Glamgirl is one of the few that makes sense when she's posts!
Sorry to say and I feel sorry for the most of you but if I was LHR I would be very worried.
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 459
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I asked for what % reduction in costs was being asked for the CC to make, Plodding Along said it started at 14% (tks plodd), but prob increased due to 16 aircraft being laid up (22 will be more like it).
If the company was asking for 14%, CC unions may of been able to deal at 8/10% in the early days, but with time sliding by and aircraft being laid up, 14% is prob now 17/19%, these are very big numbers indeed.
I wonder if the company now feels that the best med/long term result will be to play very hard ball with the CC unions and if they fail to agree a plan of action and the cards fall off the table, the end result may be better.
Appears to me, the gap is too big, best of luck to all CC.
If the company was asking for 14%, CC unions may of been able to deal at 8/10% in the early days, but with time sliding by and aircraft being laid up, 14% is prob now 17/19%, these are very big numbers indeed.
I wonder if the company now feels that the best med/long term result will be to play very hard ball with the CC unions and if they fail to agree a plan of action and the cards fall off the table, the end result may be better.
Appears to me, the gap is too big, best of luck to all CC.
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: London
Posts: 276
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This is getting completely towards kindergarden levels. I've just been challenged to a "discussion" on CF, as surely I don't want to discuss things here with "pilots".
Perhaps they hopefully can understand now why crew who actually don't agree to what everything BASSA does are too scared of saying anything?
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: LGW
Posts: 595
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Olympus,
Considering the chair person of Bassa isn't giving anyone any details as to what the company wants off you, how can you say they want everything? In one sentence you say you're willing to give up some things, but in the next you say that you want to keep what you have. Mixed messages, I'm afraid. You'll have to make up your minds.
I'm still waiting for someone of the Bassa brigade to suggest something they'd be willing to change. Destination payments? Disruption clause? Working one down payment? Reduced crew complement? That's just a couple of things I can think of off the top of my head. Suggestions welcome.
As has been stated by others, the fall for (most) cc is going to be so long and hard due to no agreements in the past, whereas other departments have had cuts on a fairly regular basis.
Gg
Considering the chair person of Bassa isn't giving anyone any details as to what the company wants off you, how can you say they want everything? In one sentence you say you're willing to give up some things, but in the next you say that you want to keep what you have. Mixed messages, I'm afraid. You'll have to make up your minds.
I'm still waiting for someone of the Bassa brigade to suggest something they'd be willing to change. Destination payments? Disruption clause? Working one down payment? Reduced crew complement? That's just a couple of things I can think of off the top of my head. Suggestions welcome.
As has been stated by others, the fall for (most) cc is going to be so long and hard due to no agreements in the past, whereas other departments have had cuts on a fairly regular basis.
Gg
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: leafy suburbs
Posts: 308
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If you guys/girls have a spare hour, just review this thread.
A lot of familiar arguments.
http://www.pprune.org/cabin-crew/256...ir-issues.html
A lot of familiar arguments.
http://www.pprune.org/cabin-crew/256...ir-issues.html
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: LGW
Posts: 595
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Nuigini,
I don't hold my breath thinking these people will understand anything at all. Considering they think the recession isn't happening, and they don't need to cut anything off their huge costs, I'm afraid we won't get anywhere with that one.
Gg
I don't hold my breath thinking these people will understand anything at all. Considering they think the recession isn't happening, and they don't need to cut anything off their huge costs, I'm afraid we won't get anywhere with that one.
Gg
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: leafy suburbs
Posts: 308
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Olympus593
You have a number of years to catch up with that statement. All departments have been cutting back over the years and cabin crew have not!
The longer you have left it, the bigger the fall. It has been repeated many times on this thread. YOU ARE IN FOR A BIG FALL to catch up with the concessions other departments have made.
It has to be equal to the other departments.
The longer you have left it, the bigger the fall. It has been repeated many times on this thread. YOU ARE IN FOR A BIG FALL to catch up with the concessions other departments have made.
Last edited by keel beam; 24th Jun 2009 at 21:59. Reason: Bigger emphasis
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: UK
Posts: 1,608
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"The majority of staff at LHR is on historic contracts and purely paid too much. You are the ones stopping the company moving forward!"-are you BA management, have you totally swallowed the pill....this is what BA want YOU to believe. People like you come onto these forums making out their either experts or have experience - unfortunately most are neither.
If BA can employ two on LGW contracts for one at LHR, then how exactly is that not holding the company back?
Olympus - hot towels etc - you are employed to be on the aircraft for the duration of the flight. The service provided is dictated by your employer, not your union - why is it so unreasonable to not provide the service that the customers are paying for?
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: London
Posts: 276
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re-Heat,
There is a simply answer to it. BASSA has not agreed to it! Why not? Because when a crew member was taken off they said that no additional tasks were allowed to be "introduced" under such crewing levels.
There is a simply answer to it. BASSA has not agreed to it! Why not? Because when a crew member was taken off they said that no additional tasks were allowed to be "introduced" under such crewing levels.
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: UK
Posts: 1,608
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Therein lies the problem with modern unions - unions were conceived to prevent mill owners from taking advantage or workers
- Living in company housing at exorbitant rates
- Provided with company "currency" to spend at company-owned shops
- Working people 18 hours a day, 7 days a week with no holiday in dangerous conditions
Unions achieved a stop to these abuses, and rightly do, but today's world revolves around a legal system that has these protections inbuild.
So what is the role for a union?
1) A legitimate representative of employees in safety concerns
2) A common bargaining tool to the extent that the company remains competitive (to prevent Ryanair-style abuses such as employees paying for uniform, training, relocation instead of the company)
3) A tool to communicate with employees.
BASSA is, in many people's opinion, failing to do 1 and 3 at all, and taking 2 to the extreme.
In the 1970s, there were legitimate crew concerns on peculiar working hours and rostering that the crew union sorted - unfortunately, as the world moved on, limits to hours that were particularly low and wages that were competitive in their day, remained.
So a combination of atrocious management and belligerent relations leaves BA where it is today - in a pickle, with Singaporian / Cathay crew providing far better service at lower cost.
That is not competitive for the airline's future and is a mockery of putting the customer first.
Debate...
- Living in company housing at exorbitant rates
- Provided with company "currency" to spend at company-owned shops
- Working people 18 hours a day, 7 days a week with no holiday in dangerous conditions
Unions achieved a stop to these abuses, and rightly do, but today's world revolves around a legal system that has these protections inbuild.
So what is the role for a union?
1) A legitimate representative of employees in safety concerns
2) A common bargaining tool to the extent that the company remains competitive (to prevent Ryanair-style abuses such as employees paying for uniform, training, relocation instead of the company)
3) A tool to communicate with employees.
BASSA is, in many people's opinion, failing to do 1 and 3 at all, and taking 2 to the extreme.
In the 1970s, there were legitimate crew concerns on peculiar working hours and rostering that the crew union sorted - unfortunately, as the world moved on, limits to hours that were particularly low and wages that were competitive in their day, remained.
So a combination of atrocious management and belligerent relations leaves BA where it is today - in a pickle, with Singaporian / Cathay crew providing far better service at lower cost.
That is not competitive for the airline's future and is a mockery of putting the customer first.
Debate...
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: LHR
Posts: 111
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Olympus593, you seemed to have conveniently forgotten that over the last few years EVERY other department at BA has rationalised and evolved so has taken the "hit", so to speak over time. IFCE has just said NO, so now you have a bigger re-allignment than others.
BASSA have brought you to the edge of this cliff, why don't you ask them why they thought they could hang onto your package in this recession?
5 Days an counting...
Oh, and all these demands for WW to go; quite frankly I would suggest better the devil you know. Any new CEO coming to BA would see it for the mess that it is and act accordingly in the best interests of the shareholders (you know, the ones that OWN BA).
BASSA have brought you to the edge of this cliff, why don't you ask them why they thought they could hang onto your package in this recession?
5 Days an counting...
Oh, and all these demands for WW to go; quite frankly I would suggest better the devil you know. Any new CEO coming to BA would see it for the mess that it is and act accordingly in the best interests of the shareholders (you know, the ones that OWN BA).
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Ask OPS!
Posts: 1,078
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It would seem, as this thread is being quoted on the Bassa forum as well, that the advocates of the BASSA stand have run out of ideas and arguments.
It is far easier to lambaste from afar in the comfortable knowledge that all within the discussion agree with your warped viewpoint then to try to convince others with well versed, rounded and factually based arguments.
I feel that the negotiating snail that is the BASSA team are retreating into their shells and awaiting the meeting on the 6th to poke their heads out again.
To those who still believe that the actions required are disproportionate:
BASSA have, over the past 10 years, been given ample opportunity to adjust CC conditions slowly and less painfully. The requirements have always been there but as a BALPA negotiator quite eloquently put it 'BALPA have sought to 'slim down' the T's & C's body whereas BASSA have just hacked limbs off to the point where only the body, LHR, is left to hack'.
It is not just BALPA that has achieved this, all other departments are operating on dramatically different contracts post 9/11. All negotiated over the past 10 years to bring them into line with the economic environment of the day.
BA has 40,000 employees. Even taking into account a BASSA membership of 8,000 (My numbers, just guessing!) that means there are a potential 32,000 job losses on the line in order to keep BASSA's cushy position at the top of their Ivory tower. 32,000 people who are prepared to accept that change is required.
It is woefully unfair to 'tar' all BASSA members with this militant brush. As has been stated so often before on this thread the vast majority of CC are, experience, level headed, very good at their job and are aware that change is required to be able to provide the customer with the service they expect at the price they require.
Do not let the inadequate, militant and petulant BASSA negotiating team drag you to the dole queue. This talk of 'legal strike' and 'they can't sack you' is not true. If so then get a signed letter from BASSA stating that if you take part in industrial action and are dismissed they will continue to pay your wages. See how quick it doesn't happen. BASSA have had months to get this sorted. BALPA took 3 1/2 months to fully convince its members that this wasn't company spin and now we have reached an amicable settlement. Why hasn't BASSA done the same? At least why haven't the negotiating team, negotiating on your behalf, requested, under confidentiality, to see the PWC results that BALPA have attained?
Personally I hope that most of the CC will see sense that this is a suicide mission from a dying BASSA leadership. How they can have the audacity to say they 'won't bore you with the nitty gritty' until after the deadline is quite beyond me.
To those on the CC forum reading in, SP et al. I think you actually realise that T's & C's have to change, I think you also realise that the company is playing hard ball this time. The fall will be painful due to the steadfast refusal of BASSA to budge in the past when ineffectual management has just let you 'get on with it' instead of rocking the boat . This time they have contingency plans in place and there are lots of willing people to fill your vacancies when you are dismissed. Also, yes, changes to the core CC T's & C's will make a huge difference in the future to the company if we can rid ourselves of the dinosaur that is BASSA and the willingness of BASSA to call IA at the drop of a cracked/ingrowing toenail.
Learn from the mistakes that BALPA made on the Open Skies issue. BALPA never saw the legal right hook coming and it floored them, took the legal team totally by surprise and also took the union world by surprise as such a test case had never been used in that context before.
Don't think that WW can't do the same again.
It is far easier to lambaste from afar in the comfortable knowledge that all within the discussion agree with your warped viewpoint then to try to convince others with well versed, rounded and factually based arguments.
I feel that the negotiating snail that is the BASSA team are retreating into their shells and awaiting the meeting on the 6th to poke their heads out again.
To those who still believe that the actions required are disproportionate:
BASSA have, over the past 10 years, been given ample opportunity to adjust CC conditions slowly and less painfully. The requirements have always been there but as a BALPA negotiator quite eloquently put it 'BALPA have sought to 'slim down' the T's & C's body whereas BASSA have just hacked limbs off to the point where only the body, LHR, is left to hack'.
It is not just BALPA that has achieved this, all other departments are operating on dramatically different contracts post 9/11. All negotiated over the past 10 years to bring them into line with the economic environment of the day.
BA has 40,000 employees. Even taking into account a BASSA membership of 8,000 (My numbers, just guessing!) that means there are a potential 32,000 job losses on the line in order to keep BASSA's cushy position at the top of their Ivory tower. 32,000 people who are prepared to accept that change is required.
It is woefully unfair to 'tar' all BASSA members with this militant brush. As has been stated so often before on this thread the vast majority of CC are, experience, level headed, very good at their job and are aware that change is required to be able to provide the customer with the service they expect at the price they require.
Do not let the inadequate, militant and petulant BASSA negotiating team drag you to the dole queue. This talk of 'legal strike' and 'they can't sack you' is not true. If so then get a signed letter from BASSA stating that if you take part in industrial action and are dismissed they will continue to pay your wages. See how quick it doesn't happen. BASSA have had months to get this sorted. BALPA took 3 1/2 months to fully convince its members that this wasn't company spin and now we have reached an amicable settlement. Why hasn't BASSA done the same? At least why haven't the negotiating team, negotiating on your behalf, requested, under confidentiality, to see the PWC results that BALPA have attained?
Personally I hope that most of the CC will see sense that this is a suicide mission from a dying BASSA leadership. How they can have the audacity to say they 'won't bore you with the nitty gritty' until after the deadline is quite beyond me.
To those on the CC forum reading in, SP et al. I think you actually realise that T's & C's have to change, I think you also realise that the company is playing hard ball this time. The fall will be painful due to the steadfast refusal of BASSA to budge in the past when ineffectual management has just let you 'get on with it' instead of rocking the boat . This time they have contingency plans in place and there are lots of willing people to fill your vacancies when you are dismissed. Also, yes, changes to the core CC T's & C's will make a huge difference in the future to the company if we can rid ourselves of the dinosaur that is BASSA and the willingness of BASSA to call IA at the drop of a cracked/ingrowing toenail.
Learn from the mistakes that BALPA made on the Open Skies issue. BALPA never saw the legal right hook coming and it floored them, took the legal team totally by surprise and also took the union world by surprise as such a test case had never been used in that context before.
Don't think that WW can't do the same again.
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: LGW
Posts: 595
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Initially, people on CF were told to not come onto this forum, as we were all talking rubbish apparantly. The tune has changed a bit, as they're now being encouraged to come here and show them who's right....(!).
I think there will be a few more rounds in the circle in the next couple of days, with the "lalalalalala" shouting and mouthing off. Best way to handle a discussion, of course...
Gg
I think there will be a few more rounds in the circle in the next couple of days, with the "lalalalalala" shouting and mouthing off. Best way to handle a discussion, of course...
Gg
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Reading
Posts: 142
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Something that really irks me is that by not negotiating a deal by 30 June, Lizanne Malone is chucking away the opportunity of VR for 2000 of us Cabin Crew.
I have resigned from BASSA.
I have resigned from BASSA.
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Ask OPS!
Posts: 1,078
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Something that really irks me is that by not negotiating a deal by 30 June, Lizanne Malone is chucking away the opportunity of VR for 2000 of us Cabin Crew.
Is BASSA a representative union or a dictatorship? I know which I would go for judging by the handling of this situation.
Awaiting pearls of wisdom from the shock troops from the BASSA site. Let the Blitzkrieg begin!
Forgot to add, better be quick only 5 days to go! But then again since when have deadlines meant anything to the BASSA negotiators?