BA and Project Columbus III
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I wonder why you are so concerned about BASSA.
Once again you (pl) seem incapable of answering the questions posed, you just question the authority of the questioner.
So, Again.
1. Why have BASSA not polled the membership on how they would like to go forward?
2. Why have BASSA not seen/acted on the independent auditors report on BAs financial status?
3. Why has BASSA not been turning up to negotiations so close to the deadline?
4. Why did the BASSA leadership withold key info about the pilots deal?
Last edited by Hotel Mode; 25th Jun 2009 at 15:39.
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Well I don't see any evidence of that now.
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Irrelevant who I am - this is an anonymous bulletin board precisely as it is the only means of permitting free speech (within the rules set by the moderators).
Don't try to change the topic - the point was that quite a few people actually want the airline to survive, so that it can pay them a salary in the future.
I wrote, as the BBC headlined, that "Actually, Virginia, BBC News reports the following: "Almost 7,000 British Airways staff have applied for voluntary pay cuts".
BBC's now-published full report - 800 people work for nothing, Another 4,000 workers are taking unpaid leave for varying amounts of time, while 1,400 people have volunteered to work part-time.
That is 6,200 people who are volunteering for voluntary pay cuts of some sort or another. I never said "working for free".
A plain example of someone taking "facts" in part and using them to distort the argument...
Don't try to change the topic - the point was that quite a few people actually want the airline to survive, so that it can pay them a salary in the future.
I wrote, as the BBC headlined, that "Actually, Virginia, BBC News reports the following: "Almost 7,000 British Airways staff have applied for voluntary pay cuts".
BBC's now-published full report - 800 people work for nothing, Another 4,000 workers are taking unpaid leave for varying amounts of time, while 1,400 people have volunteered to work part-time.
That is 6,200 people who are volunteering for voluntary pay cuts of some sort or another. I never said "working for free".
A plain example of someone taking "facts" in part and using them to distort the argument...
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The best discussion was with a purser who said she would rather bankrupt the company then give in as she couldn't afford the BA proposals.
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Hotel Mode. Your points are not even worthy of a reply.
Answer fact-based questions. Seemingly, BASSA and die-hard supporters are incapable of doing so!
It is absolute fact that BASSA have lied to their membership about the pilots' deal. In fact, in doing so means that any strike ballot would be conceived on inaccurate facts and would be overruled by the high court.
That is not opinion - that is how the law works! Pity that the cabin crew union don't get it.
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PiB up until this day your posts have made a lot of sense. I'm afraid not now.
Hotel Mode's points are very very valid and DO deserve an answer.
Maybe not an answer to us but to members inside your union who would like to know what is going on and have a vote on how your Reps negotiate with the company and what is offered.
The questions should be easily answered in an open union without being crucified.
Hotel Mode's points are very very valid and DO deserve an answer.
Maybe not an answer to us but to members inside your union who would like to know what is going on and have a vote on how your Reps negotiate with the company and what is offered.
The questions should be easily answered in an open union without being crucified.
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Yes Classic, and Walsh had the nerve to take on the unions at Aer Lingus, threatening them with doom and gloom after 9/11, got the concessions he wanted and then in 2003-04 the company made a huge profit on the back of their financial sacrifices.
However it has been downhill ever since.
He is not going to ransack BA's staff in the same manner. We WILL take him on and it will be a fight to the death.
So the negotiations had better be constructive, sincere, meaningful and successful.
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Pib,
It's one thing to be a BASSA supporter..... but at least ask questions and think about the issues! Analyse the information available for yourself. Is that too much to ask?
It is after all not just your future but all of ours!
And for the record, at first (6 months ago) I didn't believe a word that was coming out of waterside. I even questioned my own union by multiple e-mails, one-to-ones, the forum etc
SS
It's one thing to be a BASSA supporter..... but at least ask questions and think about the issues! Analyse the information available for yourself. Is that too much to ask?
It is after all not just your future but all of ours!
And for the record, at first (6 months ago) I didn't believe a word that was coming out of waterside. I even questioned my own union by multiple e-mails, one-to-ones, the forum etc
SS
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BASSA Supporter
So how do you all know that the reps are not turning up for negotiations?
It is just malicious rubbish. You do not know what is going on.
If any of you were in BASSA you would know that they have polled their members. Even Walsh is backtracking on the state of the airline, claiming he has "over-egged" the situation.
Aer Lingus would never have gone bust. What absolute rubbish. It was 85% owned by the Irish government at that time.
Nuigini, how many times.......the negotiations are in private. There will be a report back
It is just malicious rubbish. You do not know what is going on.
If any of you were in BASSA you would know that they have polled their members. Even Walsh is backtracking on the state of the airline, claiming he has "over-egged" the situation.
Aer Lingus would never have gone bust. What absolute rubbish. It was 85% owned by the Irish government at that time.
Nuigini, how many times.......the negotiations are in private. There will be a report back
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I'm ashamed to say that I went through the last spat that bassa had with BA pretty much in ignorance of the issues and of the full implications and legalities of IA, employment law etc. I allowed myself to be swept along on the tidal wave of emotions displayed at the time, mainly on CF and the bassa forum.
Once that little episode was over and done with, I promised myself never to put myself into such a vulnerable, uninformed and therefore weak position. So this time round, I have listened as much as possible to both parties, researched points I was uncertain of, listened to what debate there has been and taken timeout to seriously consider my position. I use the word debate here in it's fullest sense, so have pretty much avoided CF and bassa this time round as those forums seem usually to consist of one person posting a statement and 101 others saying "yes". (That assumes that the original statement towed the bassa line. If it didn't it was just ignored or shouted down, but very rarely "discussed"). All very reassuring, but not at all helpful or constructive. An untruth repeated a thousand times does not become a truth. It does however take-on a degree of weight, especially to those either unable or unwilling to dig deeper, as I was previously. I did notice though that the talk of IA and of "bringing the airline down" started fairly early on, or dare I say, prematurely.
I have now resigned from bassa (as I stated in an earlier post). Upto this time however, I have read the flyers and emails sent by them. I think it a great shame that they have used so many words to say so little of any use. There is no attempt to encourage the membership to think, only to follow. The lack of any clear information (and I fully understand the "blackout" while negotiations continue), guidance or reference to places where information might be found is a big failing on bassa's part. I am unsure as to wether that "failing" is deliberate or not. Ultimately, I found some of the flyers to be particularly insulting, childish and a clear attempt at coercion.
Welcome to those of you coming now from CF/bassa forums to Pprune. Can I ask that you do take time to read through this entire thread. It will firstly save us from too much tedious repetition and may even enlighten or inspire you a little.
I feel bad that by leaving bassa, I forego any possibility of my actually managing to change anything about it, about the way it thinks and acts. However, I seriously doubt that that was ever a possibility in the first place. Previous posters have already made it clear though that my "type" were not welcome anyway. I am now a free-spirit. It feels great.
Once that little episode was over and done with, I promised myself never to put myself into such a vulnerable, uninformed and therefore weak position. So this time round, I have listened as much as possible to both parties, researched points I was uncertain of, listened to what debate there has been and taken timeout to seriously consider my position. I use the word debate here in it's fullest sense, so have pretty much avoided CF and bassa this time round as those forums seem usually to consist of one person posting a statement and 101 others saying "yes". (That assumes that the original statement towed the bassa line. If it didn't it was just ignored or shouted down, but very rarely "discussed"). All very reassuring, but not at all helpful or constructive. An untruth repeated a thousand times does not become a truth. It does however take-on a degree of weight, especially to those either unable or unwilling to dig deeper, as I was previously. I did notice though that the talk of IA and of "bringing the airline down" started fairly early on, or dare I say, prematurely.
I have now resigned from bassa (as I stated in an earlier post). Upto this time however, I have read the flyers and emails sent by them. I think it a great shame that they have used so many words to say so little of any use. There is no attempt to encourage the membership to think, only to follow. The lack of any clear information (and I fully understand the "blackout" while negotiations continue), guidance or reference to places where information might be found is a big failing on bassa's part. I am unsure as to wether that "failing" is deliberate or not. Ultimately, I found some of the flyers to be particularly insulting, childish and a clear attempt at coercion.
Welcome to those of you coming now from CF/bassa forums to Pprune. Can I ask that you do take time to read through this entire thread. It will firstly save us from too much tedious repetition and may even enlighten or inspire you a little.
I feel bad that by leaving bassa, I forego any possibility of my actually managing to change anything about it, about the way it thinks and acts. However, I seriously doubt that that was ever a possibility in the first place. Previous posters have already made it clear though that my "type" were not welcome anyway. I am now a free-spirit. It feels great.
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Guys
I have contributed several times to this thread. generally I have advocated that in order to come to agreement it is better to negotiate.
Clearly, in this situation, the previous years of intransigence shown by both sides has resulted in an impasse, and an imminent 'failure to agree' with all that that implies.
Whatever is said here is immaterial, it is becoming clear that there will be no negotiated settlement and that after 1st July, in the next week, the strategies will become clear, with likely both sides digging in. I suspect that company law will favour the company, and that if there if the slightest illegality in BASSA's ballot (for example balloting over an issue conceded by BA), that they will be snakes and laddered back to zero and have to re-ballot, etc.
In the meantime, the BASSA mandate will weaken, and crumble, and by default, BA 'new fleet; wil be all persausive.
I have contributed several times to this thread. generally I have advocated that in order to come to agreement it is better to negotiate.
Clearly, in this situation, the previous years of intransigence shown by both sides has resulted in an impasse, and an imminent 'failure to agree' with all that that implies.
Whatever is said here is immaterial, it is becoming clear that there will be no negotiated settlement and that after 1st July, in the next week, the strategies will become clear, with likely both sides digging in. I suspect that company law will favour the company, and that if there if the slightest illegality in BASSA's ballot (for example balloting over an issue conceded by BA), that they will be snakes and laddered back to zero and have to re-ballot, etc.
In the meantime, the BASSA mandate will weaken, and crumble, and by default, BA 'new fleet; wil be all persausive.
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It has been mentioned on another forum about BASSA not being present at today's meeting and that there has only been three hours of negotiations.
A member says it's very hard to believe or there there must be a good reason for them not being present. If this information comes from PPRUNE it should also be disregarded straight away.
A member says it's very hard to believe or there there must be a good reason for them not being present. If this information comes from PPRUNE it should also be disregarded straight away.
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In terms of who is turning up and who isn't turning up, I can factually let everyone know that both side have and do behave like playground children, by not turning up when promising to do so.
There are of course legit reasons for this on both sides of the table.
There are of course legit reasons for this on both sides of the table.
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BASSA Supporter
NO Top Bunk the mandate will not weaken. You can second guess all you like, but you will have to wait.
On this thread BASSA and its 11,600+ members are being pilloried, yet only two years ago these 'militant' workers agreed to less retirement benefits, which in effect meant that most crew will have to work five years longer for the same pension....that is if Walsh does not close the final salary scheme to exisiting members as well. In 2007 BA gained a £400 million instant saving and have been making savings yearly of £80 million, yet the NAPS fund is still in trouble. Where have the savings from out move to T5 gone? How can a company haemorrhage so much money so quickly, unless the management are incompetent?
Now the company is in trouble again, but there have been so many management failures and criminal conduct. Gareth Kirkwood and David Noyes signed confidentiality agreements after their departure and are still on the pay roll allegedly.
Mr Walsh has demonstrated 'Klepto-FredtheShreddist-handinthetillistic' behaviour at Aer Lingus and now the same is happening at BA. There is no confidence in his leadership and quite honestly anyone else would be better.
Let's see in the next few weeks whether he can pull off his coup.
On this thread BASSA and its 11,600+ members are being pilloried, yet only two years ago these 'militant' workers agreed to less retirement benefits, which in effect meant that most crew will have to work five years longer for the same pension....that is if Walsh does not close the final salary scheme to exisiting members as well. In 2007 BA gained a £400 million instant saving and have been making savings yearly of £80 million, yet the NAPS fund is still in trouble. Where have the savings from out move to T5 gone? How can a company haemorrhage so much money so quickly, unless the management are incompetent?
Now the company is in trouble again, but there have been so many management failures and criminal conduct. Gareth Kirkwood and David Noyes signed confidentiality agreements after their departure and are still on the pay roll allegedly.
Mr Walsh has demonstrated 'Klepto-FredtheShreddist-handinthetillistic' behaviour at Aer Lingus and now the same is happening at BA. There is no confidence in his leadership and quite honestly anyone else would be better.
Let's see in the next few weeks whether he can pull off his coup.
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The tempo seems to be getting better as we slide to D day (30Jun).
Have been trying to work out the cost of BA CC and how it sits with this so called market rate, can work out BA CC are market leaders, can also work out BA CC have a market leading life/work balance and I guess this is in a big part down to the CC unions over the years.
If the CC unions have done such a super job over the years, other BA staff or even outsiders should not expect the CC unions to back down just because you think it's a good idea for whatever the reasons you can mention, am sure the CC have maintained such good T+Cs because their union has done a good job in the past.
Trying to understand the allowances that get paid to all BA flying staff on top of their basic pay is mind boggoling, phone/meals/location/destination/eary-starts/late-starts/diversion/late/flight-times/long/short/box payments/towels/reading-lights-not-working/heating-not-good-enough(bunks)/wheelchairs/stby/hotel accom at main base/etc/etc, and I wonder how many I missed out !!!
The pilots are happy with their deal and they want the CC to deal/agree as this will be in the best interests of the pilots, BALPA will have pilots well informed.
Back to numbers and I came up with 15K CC to market rate could be a saving of about £300M per year that's a lot of savings (15k CC X £20k to market rate = £300M PA)
The history of CC T+Cs and the possible savings that can be made for the long term make the gap too big to sort over the table, looks like some pain coming in Jul/Aug, will be intresting to watch.
Have been trying to work out the cost of BA CC and how it sits with this so called market rate, can work out BA CC are market leaders, can also work out BA CC have a market leading life/work balance and I guess this is in a big part down to the CC unions over the years.
If the CC unions have done such a super job over the years, other BA staff or even outsiders should not expect the CC unions to back down just because you think it's a good idea for whatever the reasons you can mention, am sure the CC have maintained such good T+Cs because their union has done a good job in the past.
Trying to understand the allowances that get paid to all BA flying staff on top of their basic pay is mind boggoling, phone/meals/location/destination/eary-starts/late-starts/diversion/late/flight-times/long/short/box payments/towels/reading-lights-not-working/heating-not-good-enough(bunks)/wheelchairs/stby/hotel accom at main base/etc/etc, and I wonder how many I missed out !!!
The pilots are happy with their deal and they want the CC to deal/agree as this will be in the best interests of the pilots, BALPA will have pilots well informed.
Back to numbers and I came up with 15K CC to market rate could be a saving of about £300M per year that's a lot of savings (15k CC X £20k to market rate = £300M PA)
The history of CC T+Cs and the possible savings that can be made for the long term make the gap too big to sort over the table, looks like some pain coming in Jul/Aug, will be intresting to watch.
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out of touch
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"And contracts are always being revisited and rewritten. That's life and what is happening here. We would all like the changes to be temporary but sadly I doubt that will be an option in these times. The revenue the company earns is in sharp decline and the costs need to be aligned with the market. BA have looked at all areas and decided what is required and achievable by each area, hence different targets this time around - it is about survival of the fittest and still being in the game in 2011."
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TopBunk, your reply really shows,in my opinion, how out of touch you are with what is really going on.
First of all, allow me to tell you that if BA acted properly we would not be hundred of thousand of pounds out of pocket.
Secondly,in my opion, you would not find a single person in the cabin crew comunity who would be opposed to temporary measures to help the company out of this crisis, on the understanding that 'just like the pilots' they are rewarded once the company is in profit again.
But any changes has to be done properly and start from the top, working all the way down to the bottom.
Not a single department should be singled out for any reasons.
The higher earner you are the more your contribution should be.
it should be as simple as that....
lets be united on this and lets show the company that we us pilots and cabin crew can work together and support each other just like we do when onboard an aircraft.
safe flying
"And contracts are always being revisited and rewritten. That's life and what is happening here. We would all like the changes to be temporary but sadly I doubt that will be an option in these times. The revenue the company earns is in sharp decline and the costs need to be aligned with the market. BA have looked at all areas and decided what is required and achievable by each area, hence different targets this time around - it is about survival of the fittest and still being in the game in 2011."
**********************************************************
TopBunk, your reply really shows,in my opinion, how out of touch you are with what is really going on.
First of all, allow me to tell you that if BA acted properly we would not be hundred of thousand of pounds out of pocket.
Secondly,in my opion, you would not find a single person in the cabin crew comunity who would be opposed to temporary measures to help the company out of this crisis, on the understanding that 'just like the pilots' they are rewarded once the company is in profit again.
But any changes has to be done properly and start from the top, working all the way down to the bottom.
Not a single department should be singled out for any reasons.
The higher earner you are the more your contribution should be.
it should be as simple as that....
lets be united on this and lets show the company that we us pilots and cabin crew can work together and support each other just like we do when onboard an aircraft.
safe flying
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BASSA Supporter
Gg. I still think you need not be so defensive. No one is attacking you personally because you hold an alternative view. I am now trying to picture you with thick skin and that big strong backbone....
The BALPA document would not make any difrerence because we are not being offered the same deal. This is union busting remember.
I do not know where such information about BASSA not turning up for meetings comes from. In the last dispute the same accusations were made and turned out to be untrue.
There is a lot of misinformation being put about with the Press being briefed against us by BA and of course, forums such as this are ideal for spreading false rumours and gossip.
Please understand that Walsh was/is a past master at brinkmanship when he was an IALPA rep, but even he has overdone it with all the threats about the company being unviable. This is all part of the cut and thrust when two opposing forces meet. We as a group of employees are not making any demands of BA, it is all one way traffic and we are playing a defensive game. We only want to make a fair contribution to saving BA from Walsh.
If Walsh wants to force through all of his impositions, he will have to factor in the cost of industrial action and the likelihood that UNITE via the Labour government, will not allow him to smash the union. Even Rod Eddington said that he needed the unions in BA, otherwise he could not run a company so big as BA without having such representation of the employees. With Walsh, no such niceties are relevant.
The BALPA document would not make any difrerence because we are not being offered the same deal. This is union busting remember.
I do not know where such information about BASSA not turning up for meetings comes from. In the last dispute the same accusations were made and turned out to be untrue.
There is a lot of misinformation being put about with the Press being briefed against us by BA and of course, forums such as this are ideal for spreading false rumours and gossip.
Please understand that Walsh was/is a past master at brinkmanship when he was an IALPA rep, but even he has overdone it with all the threats about the company being unviable. This is all part of the cut and thrust when two opposing forces meet. We as a group of employees are not making any demands of BA, it is all one way traffic and we are playing a defensive game. We only want to make a fair contribution to saving BA from Walsh.
If Walsh wants to force through all of his impositions, he will have to factor in the cost of industrial action and the likelihood that UNITE via the Labour government, will not allow him to smash the union. Even Rod Eddington said that he needed the unions in BA, otherwise he could not run a company so big as BA without having such representation of the employees. With Walsh, no such niceties are relevant.
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cabin crew comunity who would be opposed to temporary measures to help the company out of this crisis
Not a single department should be singled out for any reasons.
The good news is, if IFCE (or any other dept) dont make their full savings, then Flt ops dont have to make any at all. That I think is a measure of Willies confidence.
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PiB, I'm simply answering the questions you ask.
I really can't be bothered to have another argument with you. We've been through this so many times before that it's getting boring.
Gg
I really can't be bothered to have another argument with you. We've been through this so many times before that it's getting boring.
Gg