BA and Project Columbus III
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SP #1120
"BA is competitive on EU routes price wise and offers a free bar and food as well.
Aer Lingus should have stayed a full service airline selling itself on the quality of its product and the professionalism of its crews"
Oh SP, SP, SP, I really don't think you understand air travel dynamics at all. Actually, one or two of your BA colleagues who don't agree with you also make the same mistakes to be fair.
Let me tell you why we, the passengers, get on planes. We do so because we have to (business) or want to (leisure) get to B from A. There are only two key determinants of whether we buy a ticket from airline X or Y: price, and convenience (arrival time, additional time to get from the plane to ultimate destination).
To use your Aer Lingus example, Aer Lingus' full service involved charging £250 for a return between London and Dublin. Ryanair came along and reduced it to under £50, thereby pricing Aer Lingus food/drink (the only differentiator at first) at £100 per flight. I can get far better food in good London/Dublin restaurants than I ever got off Aer Lingus for that price.
Incidentally, I find the concentration on the food/drink service laughable. Am I really meant to value a cr@ppy tray that's impossible to eat off in the middle seat in turbulence when you won't serve me coffee anyway? Have you ever been to a restaurant that doesn't serve/stops serving because it's windy outside? "Free" food/drink, which in reality is grossly overpriced in your tickets, is probably the least valued part of the package.
Airlines are just glorified bus companies and need to price their service on this basis. Some passengers will pay for comfort on long flights, but few of us care about the gimmicks. For instance, does BA have any stats on actual usage of the AV system in premium cabins? All I ever see is people asleep. I reckon the only reason the AV is there is so CC don't have to do the safety announcement pre-flight. Scrap it and cut fares. Same with all the guff we get on premium cabin food: the committees of renowned chefs that "design" your menus get paid out of my fares. I'd rather have the cheaper fare thanks.
There's a reason why Ryanair has grown so quickly. They worked out what passengers really wanted far faster than the likes of BA did. BA is having to follow Ryanair, not the other way round.
Aer Lingus should have stayed a full service airline selling itself on the quality of its product and the professionalism of its crews"
Oh SP, SP, SP, I really don't think you understand air travel dynamics at all. Actually, one or two of your BA colleagues who don't agree with you also make the same mistakes to be fair.
Let me tell you why we, the passengers, get on planes. We do so because we have to (business) or want to (leisure) get to B from A. There are only two key determinants of whether we buy a ticket from airline X or Y: price, and convenience (arrival time, additional time to get from the plane to ultimate destination).
To use your Aer Lingus example, Aer Lingus' full service involved charging £250 for a return between London and Dublin. Ryanair came along and reduced it to under £50, thereby pricing Aer Lingus food/drink (the only differentiator at first) at £100 per flight. I can get far better food in good London/Dublin restaurants than I ever got off Aer Lingus for that price.
Incidentally, I find the concentration on the food/drink service laughable. Am I really meant to value a cr@ppy tray that's impossible to eat off in the middle seat in turbulence when you won't serve me coffee anyway? Have you ever been to a restaurant that doesn't serve/stops serving because it's windy outside? "Free" food/drink, which in reality is grossly overpriced in your tickets, is probably the least valued part of the package.
Airlines are just glorified bus companies and need to price their service on this basis. Some passengers will pay for comfort on long flights, but few of us care about the gimmicks. For instance, does BA have any stats on actual usage of the AV system in premium cabins? All I ever see is people asleep. I reckon the only reason the AV is there is so CC don't have to do the safety announcement pre-flight. Scrap it and cut fares. Same with all the guff we get on premium cabin food: the committees of renowned chefs that "design" your menus get paid out of my fares. I'd rather have the cheaper fare thanks.
There's a reason why Ryanair has grown so quickly. They worked out what passengers really wanted far faster than the likes of BA did. BA is having to follow Ryanair, not the other way round.
Last edited by JayPee28bpr; 24th Jun 2009 at 10:17. Reason: Wrong reference
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JayPee28bpr,
Whilst I agree with many of your sentiments I have to say that the BA ticket pricing, especially in Short Haul is competitive depending upon what the passenger wishes.
For example, booking extremely early with a Low Cost Carrier will earn you the cheap seat. However, depending upon how you wish to travel and with what can make the same ticket more expensive than with BA.
Generally BA fares are more upfront than some LoCo's but, if you are travelling light, can do internet checking, aren't paying with a credit card, can face not eating airline food (and lets face who can!) and can put up with arriving a ways off from your actual destination then the LoCo's can win. this has been proven by various articles in the national press where BA actually worked out to be the cheaper deal, again dependant upon how you travel. Also T5 does seem also to buck the trend at Heathrow by making it almost pleasant. (until you get the infamous ATC delays but they affect all carriers!)
Horses for courses really and the BA brand needs to evolve to cater for the new market. Failure to do so could lead to extinction. Sadly some members of the company fail to see that.
Whilst I agree with many of your sentiments I have to say that the BA ticket pricing, especially in Short Haul is competitive depending upon what the passenger wishes.
For example, booking extremely early with a Low Cost Carrier will earn you the cheap seat. However, depending upon how you wish to travel and with what can make the same ticket more expensive than with BA.
Generally BA fares are more upfront than some LoCo's but, if you are travelling light, can do internet checking, aren't paying with a credit card, can face not eating airline food (and lets face who can!) and can put up with arriving a ways off from your actual destination then the LoCo's can win. this has been proven by various articles in the national press where BA actually worked out to be the cheaper deal, again dependant upon how you travel. Also T5 does seem also to buck the trend at Heathrow by making it almost pleasant. (until you get the infamous ATC delays but they affect all carriers!)
Horses for courses really and the BA brand needs to evolve to cater for the new market. Failure to do so could lead to extinction. Sadly some members of the company fail to see that.
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You might want to take a look at the Flyertalk forums to see what BAs regular flyers think of the food and entertaintment offerings on board. Whole threads devoted to which champagne is on board, or withering complaints about the IFE. I'm not sure your analysis is entirely correct JP. For point to point traffic perhaps for the independent buyer then yes it is, but BA makes the majority of profits from corporate contract customers, for whom price is an issue but also service, recognition, priority booking and myriad other factors. Deals can be swung on the basis of how many gold cards the company execs will be granted. If BA followed Ryanair we'd go under, it's not our market. I like to use an analogy with the car industry. Skoda make perfectly good, cheap, accessible cars with few frills and they sell extremely well. But BMW and Mercedes make expensive cars and they sell very well too. Why? Because the market is not homogenous, it's not one type of customer who values price over service, or service over price, or convenience over reliability, or anything else. It's a big, diverse marketplace, and there are lots of people who would rather pay the money and fly on bmi or BA or Lufthansa than Ryanair. I know I do. It's a popular misconception that Ryanair have stolen their market from the the traditional airlines. They haven't. What they have done is far more clever, they have created a new market from scratch from those who couldn't afford to fly previously. Yes, they've pinched a small proportion of customers from the majors, but Ryanair won't be the death of BA. Even Michael O'Leary doesn't think that.
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SP................"come along to the union meeting and and express the views you hold have there? I am sure they will be welcome."
........um I dont think the views would be very welcome at all!!
And oce again SP, I ask 2 simple questions:
How long (in actual days) are you prepared to stay on strike for? How long can you afford (in actual days) to stay on strike for?
........um I dont think the views would be very welcome at all!!
And oce again SP, I ask 2 simple questions:
How long (in actual days) are you prepared to stay on strike for? How long can you afford (in actual days) to stay on strike for?
Last edited by Andyismyname; 24th Jun 2009 at 10:53.
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Wobble #1144
Agree with your points on BA pricing. I actually think Ryanair has served its purpose now. All airlines have reduced fares and adopted a more "high volume low margin" model, certainly in SH. I don't actually like Ryanair and seek to avoid using them! That's down to them ripping me off a couple of times. I see their latest one is that they're not going to accept checked baggage anymore. Hand luggage only from next Spring. Not sure if this is serious or another publicity gimmick like the coin slot on the toilets!
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Yes Wobble. Finger trouble. However:
unsurmountable definition | Dictionary.com
But you can have undisputable or indisputable.
Of course you would be welcome Andy.
Carnage. Thank you:
"Yes, they've pinched a small proportion of customers from the majors, but Ryanair won't be the death of BA. Even Michael O'Leary doesn't think that."
This is exactly the reason why Aer Lingus should not have gone Lo Co. Another monumental blunder by Walsh.
By the way, if Walsh had got his way with a management buyout of Aer Lingus, what are the odds he would have immediately sold out to MOL? I think he was rumbled by Bertie Ahern.
unsurmountable definition | Dictionary.com
But you can have undisputable or indisputable.
Of course you would be welcome Andy.
Carnage. Thank you:
"Yes, they've pinched a small proportion of customers from the majors, but Ryanair won't be the death of BA. Even Michael O'Leary doesn't think that."
This is exactly the reason why Aer Lingus should not have gone Lo Co. Another monumental blunder by Walsh.
By the way, if Walsh had got his way with a management buyout of Aer Lingus, what are the odds he would have immediately sold out to MOL? I think he was rumbled by Bertie Ahern.
if Walsh had got his way with a management buyout of Aer Lingus, what are the odds he would have immediately sold out to MOL?
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Carnage #1145
Sorry, but I now really can't believe you're not in BA Marketing!!!
I know what you're saying. My views/needs differ depending on who is paying the fare! For leisure, I do want the comfort and will pay the price for that, but aren't that fussed about the gimmicks, flexible tickets etc. Whilst I like the good food/wine, I'd trade it for a lower fare. My partner does like the AV if I'm honest. I spend a fortune paying for a comfy bed for her and she still can't sleep!!! So she watches every film there is.
On business it's a bit different. Maxing out is the name of the game, really out of boredom more than anything.
I know what you're saying. My views/needs differ depending on who is paying the fare! For leisure, I do want the comfort and will pay the price for that, but aren't that fussed about the gimmicks, flexible tickets etc. Whilst I like the good food/wine, I'd trade it for a lower fare. My partner does like the AV if I'm honest. I spend a fortune paying for a comfy bed for her and she still can't sleep!!! So she watches every film there is.
On business it's a bit different. Maxing out is the name of the game, really out of boredom more than anything.
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That's the rub, just enough to keep the other half in films during the flight whilst not breaking your bank.
I personally think Unite will dive in before it gets really critical. They're just waiting to see how far BASSA can take it before reigning them in. They can't do it too early as they don't want to be seen to give BA management an easy ride.
I've not heard much from Amicus on all this. It should create an interesting balance as they're both part of Unite.
I personally think Unite will dive in before it gets really critical. They're just waiting to see how far BASSA can take it before reigning them in. They can't do it too early as they don't want to be seen to give BA management an easy ride.
I've not heard much from Amicus on all this. It should create an interesting balance as they're both part of Unite.
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Not marketing, but I do know someone in sales! It's a complex business and not one that lends itself to short analysis on this forum. Always worth bearing in mind that a lot of people are travelling on bulk discounted corporate deals. There's often little to distinguish between the fares at a corporate level, and absolutely nothing to the individual who isn't paying for the ticket, so product differentiation is the key to getting the bums on seats in that scenario. Some people don't like the fringe benefits, such as yourself, others do, such as your partner. The research suggests the IFE is important enough to be used as a selling point, which Virgin and Singapore certainly used to do and Emirates does today.
As an interesting insight into the market, BAs World Traveller Plus fares used to be almost double the equivalent World Traveller fare, and the only product differentiation was a bigger seat in a smaller cabin, yet it was as extremely successful proposition and was filled with people paying their own money rather than business travellers. Some people still want to travel in style!
Now getting back to the original thread, I believe BASSA have now had a look at what BA want from them (probably had it a long time ago but saved the announcement for theatrical effect) and they're not happy. Thats what imposition is going to look like folks. At best. If the management don't heap some more pain on top as the price of going to war. Think you can meet those demands in 6 days?
As an interesting insight into the market, BAs World Traveller Plus fares used to be almost double the equivalent World Traveller fare, and the only product differentiation was a bigger seat in a smaller cabin, yet it was as extremely successful proposition and was filled with people paying their own money rather than business travellers. Some people still want to travel in style!
Now getting back to the original thread, I believe BASSA have now had a look at what BA want from them (probably had it a long time ago but saved the announcement for theatrical effect) and they're not happy. Thats what imposition is going to look like folks. At best. If the management don't heap some more pain on top as the price of going to war. Think you can meet those demands in 6 days?
Last edited by Carnage Matey!; 24th Jun 2009 at 12:15.
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Jaypee as a passenger (of the self-confessed nervous variety) you are welcome to post here, but please limit yourself to talking about things within your area of expertise.
Originally Posted by JayPee28bpr;5017748I
reckon the only reason the AV is there is so CC don't have to do the safety announcement pre-flight..
Your previous posts in various forums show a massive chip on your shoulder about "arrogant pilots & lazy flight attendants". That kind of thing might be tolerated on the SLF forum, but not here.
Please stick to the subject, stick to what you know, and show some respect for PPRuNe´s prime users; people in aviation.
Thank you.
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SP
Are you sure?
WW is happy with the offer to CC as it meets his needs.
He must be rubbing his hands with glee that if the CC go on strike he can force the situation and at the end of the day he gets an even better deal (ie make 2000 redundant and bring in mixed EF/WW crews).
Of course BASSA could try and salvage the situation, a U turn, save some face, negotiate the best possible deal, knowing that it won't be the one they are after but will ensure that most of their members will have jobs.
As it stands BASSA do not want to do this. It is all about brinkmanship but this time BASSA are only holding a hand of 2s while WW has all the aces.
Will commonsense prevail? I won't volunteer to hold my breath. I just feel sorry for those of you in BASSA that will realise some time after the event that it was all to do with union politics and ego trips.
We had the same thing in engineering in 1977. Since then my union, UNITE (then the AUEW), is treated with derision by engineers in BA. BASSA is going the same way, albeit 30 odd years down the line!
If there is to be a reform of T&C's, it cannot happen in one go.
WW is happy with the offer to CC as it meets his needs.
He must be rubbing his hands with glee that if the CC go on strike he can force the situation and at the end of the day he gets an even better deal (ie make 2000 redundant and bring in mixed EF/WW crews).
Of course BASSA could try and salvage the situation, a U turn, save some face, negotiate the best possible deal, knowing that it won't be the one they are after but will ensure that most of their members will have jobs.
As it stands BASSA do not want to do this. It is all about brinkmanship but this time BASSA are only holding a hand of 2s while WW has all the aces.
Will commonsense prevail? I won't volunteer to hold my breath. I just feel sorry for those of you in BASSA that will realise some time after the event that it was all to do with union politics and ego trips.
We had the same thing in engineering in 1977. Since then my union, UNITE (then the AUEW), is treated with derision by engineers in BA. BASSA is going the same way, albeit 30 odd years down the line!
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The latest from BASSA
What kind of halfwit union comes out with "we've seen the proposals, we dont like them, but we're not going to tell you what they are until 6 days after some worse ones have been imposed on you and 2000 of your members have had redundancy notices"?
Cant beat consulting the membership when you've left nothing to consult.
Finally after many months of going around in circles BA yesterday (23rd) handed over their proposals for cabin crew cost savings, in writing. While talks continue we have agreed not to reveal the "nitty gritty" detail but we can say our first impressions were one of disbelief and then anger.
Proportionally, BA are expecting Cabin Crew to give much much more than all other areas put together.
Today BASSA are preparing a counter offer, which we hope to present to the company later in the week but the gap between us at present is large enough to fly a fleet of jumbos through it and whether that gap can be closed enough to satisfy all areas will be a gargantuan task. With that in mind and with threats of imposition on the horizon it is important that you now make a note in your diary. On Monday the 6th July we are holding a branch meeting, at Kempton Park again, and this really will be the big one. We will be presenting BA's proposals and our counter proposal.
We are facing the biggest threat to our way of life ever. BASSA and you the membership face our biggest challenge by far - this challenge can be overcome but only by everyone standing up and facing it together. Another massive turn out on July 6th will be an important step in the right direction.
Proportionally, BA are expecting Cabin Crew to give much much more than all other areas put together.
Today BASSA are preparing a counter offer, which we hope to present to the company later in the week but the gap between us at present is large enough to fly a fleet of jumbos through it and whether that gap can be closed enough to satisfy all areas will be a gargantuan task. With that in mind and with threats of imposition on the horizon it is important that you now make a note in your diary. On Monday the 6th July we are holding a branch meeting, at Kempton Park again, and this really will be the big one. We will be presenting BA's proposals and our counter proposal.
We are facing the biggest threat to our way of life ever. BASSA and you the membership face our biggest challenge by far - this challenge can be overcome but only by everyone standing up and facing it together. Another massive turn out on July 6th will be an important step in the right direction.
Cant beat consulting the membership when you've left nothing to consult.
Last edited by Hotel Mode; 24th Jun 2009 at 13:01.
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Hmmmm so will my Union have made substantial progress by the deadline of 30 June?
It looks like NO.
So if the usual die-hards all attend on the 6th, they will get to vote themselves out of Voluntary Redundancies, if the offer isnt withdrawn and Compulsory Redundancies imposed on 30 June.
So, SP, how much have you got saved? I am ok, I will be going to work across your picket line.
Lizanne Malone, you are a disgrace.
It looks like NO.
So if the usual die-hards all attend on the 6th, they will get to vote themselves out of Voluntary Redundancies, if the offer isnt withdrawn and Compulsory Redundancies imposed on 30 June.
So, SP, how much have you got saved? I am ok, I will be going to work across your picket line.
Lizanne Malone, you are a disgrace.
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What a bunch of complete ........!
If the demands are so mind bogglingly disbelievable and bound to make them angry it must surely be better for the union to divulge them to the membership now and as a consequence bolster the resolve of the BASSA members and re-enforce their power.
The alternative is that BA impose their will on CC on 30th June.
BASSA can have as many meetings as they want and draft in as many of their lunatic membership to Kempton Park to make it appear that everybody supports them. Until they tell their members everything and ballot everybody properly they're just talking out of their proverbial behinds.
If the demands are so mind bogglingly disbelievable and bound to make them angry it must surely be better for the union to divulge them to the membership now and as a consequence bolster the resolve of the BASSA members and re-enforce their power.
The alternative is that BA impose their will on CC on 30th June.
BASSA can have as many meetings as they want and draft in as many of their lunatic membership to Kempton Park to make it appear that everybody supports them. Until they tell their members everything and ballot everybody properly they're just talking out of their proverbial behinds.
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We are facing the biggest threat to our way of life ever.
Proportionally, BA are expecting Cabin Crew to give much much more than all other areas put together.
Today BASSA are preparing a counter offer, which we hope to present to the company later in the week but the gap between us at present is large enough to fly a fleet of jumbos through it and whether that gap can be closed enough to satisfy all areas will be a gargantuan task.
BASSA and you the membership face our biggest challenge by far - this challenge can be overcome but only by everyone standing up and facing it together.
Another massive turn out on July 6th will be an important step in the right direction.
To be honest surely BASSA should have seen this coming? This thread alone is the third on Project Columbus is it not? The rumours were abound over a year ago.
CC you have been right royally shafted and sold down the river by your 'representatives' and I use the term loosely as I am aware the BASSA doesn't seem to represent the views of that many CC any more.
Quite what should be discussed at Kempton on the 6th is beyond me as the deadline for discussion is past. Amazing that no details about your future, or the 'nitty gritty' can be discussed outside of fortress BASSA until your ability to influence it is gone? Representation of members? I think not.
SP I'm sure will have a different spin.
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I am gobsmacked by this latest from Bassa, but I'm not surprised at all.
I'm sure the Bassa die-hards will keep to the mantra "trust your reps", but how members could possibly trust them is beyond me. I lost trust in them a long time ago and went elsewhere.
I'd like to ask SP (and similar posters):
Do you have enough money saved to tide you over in case you lose your job (whether legal or not)?
For the other posters, I've just had a look at CF and it's quite amazing, really. There is a specific thread there about this forum, and this thread, and ALL posters on that thread are saying we're stupid, disillusioned and out to get them. They're also saying that SP is doing a great job making us look foolish (!). It would be funny if it wasn't so tragic.
I've thought about posting there, but I'm still working on the script. Could get interesting. Wonder how quickly I'd get banned for not following the rest of the sheep?
Gg
I'm sure the Bassa die-hards will keep to the mantra "trust your reps", but how members could possibly trust them is beyond me. I lost trust in them a long time ago and went elsewhere.
I'd like to ask SP (and similar posters):
Do you have enough money saved to tide you over in case you lose your job (whether legal or not)?
For the other posters, I've just had a look at CF and it's quite amazing, really. There is a specific thread there about this forum, and this thread, and ALL posters on that thread are saying we're stupid, disillusioned and out to get them. They're also saying that SP is doing a great job making us look foolish (!). It would be funny if it wasn't so tragic.
I've thought about posting there, but I'm still working on the script. Could get interesting. Wonder how quickly I'd get banned for not following the rest of the sheep?
Gg
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For the other posters, I've just had a look at CF and it's quite amazing, really. There is a specific thread there about this forum, and this thread, and ALL posters on that thread are saying we're stupid, disillusioned and out to get them. They're also saying that SP is doing a great job making us look foolish (!). It would be funny if it wasn't so tragic.
I've thought about posting there, but I'm still working on the script. Could get interesting. Wonder how quickly I'd get banned for not following the rest of the sheep?
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I seem to be a lone voice here. Not surprisingly.
I will come back in a month or so when things have worked themselves out. You can now all agree with each other.
I think BA's cabin crew should be flattered that you all take such an active interest in our union.
Will Walsh get his way and people like Andy, Nuigini and GG lose about £3,000 a year, although they appear happy to make that sacrifice. Just remember that Walsh threatened Aer Lingus employees in 2002 with the same doom and gloom after 9/11 and then in the financial year ending in 2004, went onto make a record profit of Euros U$137 million or E107 million.
If you do not learn by that example of Walsh's mendacious antics, prepare yourselves to be shafted royally.
Over and out.
SP
I will come back in a month or so when things have worked themselves out. You can now all agree with each other.
I think BA's cabin crew should be flattered that you all take such an active interest in our union.
Will Walsh get his way and people like Andy, Nuigini and GG lose about £3,000 a year, although they appear happy to make that sacrifice. Just remember that Walsh threatened Aer Lingus employees in 2002 with the same doom and gloom after 9/11 and then in the financial year ending in 2004, went onto make a record profit of Euros U$137 million or E107 million.
If you do not learn by that example of Walsh's mendacious antics, prepare yourselves to be shafted royally.
Over and out.
SP
Last edited by Stall Pusher; 24th Jun 2009 at 14:13.