BA and Project Columbus III
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Where I am working at the moment, there is one individual who believes the airline owes him a living. He is very left wing,(a union rep) and a lazy bastard to boot.
But because of the local terms and conditions, he plays the game, and cannot be sacked. (OK so that might be a management problem) But the fact is, with your rantings, Mincer, (I cannot describe them as anything else) I perceive you to fit into his mould.
Am I on the right lines? What or who do you represent Mincer, it might give fellow reader/contributors an idea of why you are coming from where you are!
And by the way, who is hi-jacking this Cabin Crew forum?
But because of the local terms and conditions, he plays the game, and cannot be sacked. (OK so that might be a management problem) But the fact is, with your rantings, Mincer, (I cannot describe them as anything else) I perceive you to fit into his mould.
Am I on the right lines? What or who do you represent Mincer, it might give fellow reader/contributors an idea of why you are coming from where you are!
And by the way, who is hi-jacking this Cabin Crew forum?
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mincer,
I am cc and I am here having a discussion. All industries at present are doing their best to keep alive their jobs for the future. Car industries going down to a 3 day week for example.
You really need to look at the bigger picture. For BA to survive, they need to compete in the market and the only way they can do that is by looking at what other carriers' T&Cs are to reduce costs. If I moan, then the only words of sympathy I get are "Go across the road to BA, no hard feelings".
The truth is that T&Cs cuts for even the big legacy carriers are occuring not just for CC but also for the flight deck. Take easyJet for example. They have always been that slightly better in terms of service than Ryanair, their nearest competitor. But since MOL had reduced the airline to nothing more than a bus service (which people don't seem to mind when you see how "successful" they are) EJ have had to do the same thing - starting off with the limit on how much water pilots can drink and getting CC to bring their own tea-bags!
I can't speak for all CC but you don't do this for the money. I only fly Long Haul, haven't had a relationship that has lasted more than 3 weeks in the last 4 years and get less money than my friends in an office job working as 7 quid an hour secretaries. But I wouldn't change it because I enjoy what I'm doing.
Don't tell the bearded guy this but I have worked out that I can forfeit about 75p per hour before I would have to call it a day because I simply could not afford to live! Up to that point, I would not mind a reduction as I would have my job protected and hopefully would have safeguarded a lot of my colleagues.
I am cc and I am here having a discussion. All industries at present are doing their best to keep alive their jobs for the future. Car industries going down to a 3 day week for example.
You really need to look at the bigger picture. For BA to survive, they need to compete in the market and the only way they can do that is by looking at what other carriers' T&Cs are to reduce costs. If I moan, then the only words of sympathy I get are "Go across the road to BA, no hard feelings".
The truth is that T&Cs cuts for even the big legacy carriers are occuring not just for CC but also for the flight deck. Take easyJet for example. They have always been that slightly better in terms of service than Ryanair, their nearest competitor. But since MOL had reduced the airline to nothing more than a bus service (which people don't seem to mind when you see how "successful" they are) EJ have had to do the same thing - starting off with the limit on how much water pilots can drink and getting CC to bring their own tea-bags!
I can't speak for all CC but you don't do this for the money. I only fly Long Haul, haven't had a relationship that has lasted more than 3 weeks in the last 4 years and get less money than my friends in an office job working as 7 quid an hour secretaries. But I wouldn't change it because I enjoy what I'm doing.
Don't tell the bearded guy this but I have worked out that I can forfeit about 75p per hour before I would have to call it a day because I simply could not afford to live! Up to that point, I would not mind a reduction as I would have my job protected and hopefully would have safeguarded a lot of my colleagues.
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From the start I have pointed out that Walsh's assault is not about saving an ailing airline, it is about a smash & grab on cabin crew T&Cs.
£2.5million a day - that means that BA may as well be burning £30 every second - If BASSA believe this is sustainable, then they are sorely misguided. If you believe that the 10% profit made last year was something that would have happened this year if their had been no recession then you are misguided BA was predicting a low to no profit well before recession became the talk of the day.
BA isn't yet an ailing Airline but as I have said before - this attitude of it not being something that could happen to us is dangerous and the main reason that I am disappointed in a Union that would have once had my support.
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There were a small number of other threads in this forum on the same subject - they have ben closed: We'll just use this thread for related discussions please.
Please keep the discussions away from Miners Strikes, Thatcherism, Socialism and the imminent demise of the Capitalist system: Fascinating though these subjects may be to some of you, they are essentially Jet Blast material.
Finally, several posts have been deleted because they were written in Nokia Text Speak, or contained so little punctuation that they were virtually unreadable.
Please keep the discussions away from Miners Strikes, Thatcherism, Socialism and the imminent demise of the Capitalist system: Fascinating though these subjects may be to some of you, they are essentially Jet Blast material.
Finally, several posts have been deleted because they were written in Nokia Text Speak, or contained so little punctuation that they were virtually unreadable.
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I always love that. Why don't other people leave us to have our debate. On the PROFESSIONAL PILOTS rumour network. Which, if the debate only affected you and your peers would be perfectly reasonable.
Unfortunately you are trying to turn a workforce against their employers for the ends of propping up terms and conditions for which even your own peer group had deemed extravagant. I feel you have missed the point here.
Many of the discussions held on this thread have revolved around the fact that a minority, and it is a minority, of militant CC are beating a big drum, attempting to rally the troops for a call to IA. This damages the forward bookings of the company I also work for and thus damages its potential future. So, to summarize I too have a vested interest in the outcome of these 'talks' and militant workers constantly throwing out the 'neo liberal' waffle aren't helping to get a viable alternate on the table.
If you wish to turn your energies to solving the situation rather than to aggravating it then you might just make some headway. The time now is to engage with the company and, like any 'bartering' situation see what is ludicrous, what can be taken and achieved and what needs further discussion. Be very wary of throwing the lot out because BASSAs' stance of 'no one will want to work under those conditions' appears to be somewhat flawed, even your own industry branch is saying so.
(P.s. I stood at the 'coalface' of the miners strike with my Uncle, a Nottinghamshire pit worker and have experienced what transpired for myself. Not pleasant but, sadly, inevitable.)
I really do wish the process well. I think the vast majority of LHR CC can see it for what it is, which is a contractual re-adjustment in financial hard times. Once the recession is past, as long as we are still standing then we can start from scratch and negotiate improvements. A difficult process however one that the Flight Crew have already accepted will be required. Add to that that we are also going through performance related scrutiny and per capita have almost double to loose, we are still, all in this together.
Wise up. It's either new contract or the dole and you won't see WW in the queue.
Unfortunately you are trying to turn a workforce against their employers for the ends of propping up terms and conditions for which even your own peer group had deemed extravagant. I feel you have missed the point here.
Many of the discussions held on this thread have revolved around the fact that a minority, and it is a minority, of militant CC are beating a big drum, attempting to rally the troops for a call to IA. This damages the forward bookings of the company I also work for and thus damages its potential future. So, to summarize I too have a vested interest in the outcome of these 'talks' and militant workers constantly throwing out the 'neo liberal' waffle aren't helping to get a viable alternate on the table.
If you wish to turn your energies to solving the situation rather than to aggravating it then you might just make some headway. The time now is to engage with the company and, like any 'bartering' situation see what is ludicrous, what can be taken and achieved and what needs further discussion. Be very wary of throwing the lot out because BASSAs' stance of 'no one will want to work under those conditions' appears to be somewhat flawed, even your own industry branch is saying so.
(P.s. I stood at the 'coalface' of the miners strike with my Uncle, a Nottinghamshire pit worker and have experienced what transpired for myself. Not pleasant but, sadly, inevitable.)
I really do wish the process well. I think the vast majority of LHR CC can see it for what it is, which is a contractual re-adjustment in financial hard times. Once the recession is past, as long as we are still standing then we can start from scratch and negotiate improvements. A difficult process however one that the Flight Crew have already accepted will be required. Add to that that we are also going through performance related scrutiny and per capita have almost double to loose, we are still, all in this together.
Wise up. It's either new contract or the dole and you won't see WW in the queue.
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This is a very typical behaviour for BASSA. Regardless what the company proposes (unless it has a positive impact on its members), BASSA says no. One should ask themselves who is running the airline after all. Is it BASSA?
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Wobble, i cannot believe how misguided you are in your assumption that anything given away now, due to the harsh economic trading conditions,can then be negotiated back from BA management when profitability returns.Anyone who knows anything about industrial relations within BA,knows full well,that benefits and conditions,surrendered,are never,ever,re-instated and that's a fact.I believe the union are prepared to make "temporary" concessions to alleviate the financial pressure on the airline,that we all appreciate.On the understanding that when trading conditions improve,these temporary measures will be recinded.The company will not agree to that proposal,as they are determined to undermine the current benefits enjoyed by cabin crew once and for all.An opportunistic attack,i have heard it described as,on employees terms and conditions.BA cabin crew are not out to destroy the company,nor are they oblivious to the economic conditions in which the company operates.Sensible compromise is the way to get through the current financial situation,not an aggressive attack on employees long term livelihood.That's my take on the situation,i of course expect to be corrected.Good luck to all involved,i hope common sense prevails from both management and union.
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Bermudatriangle,
I know exactly how difficult, in fact nigh on impossible, the task of negotiation will be after the event. However we all need to face the reality that this is an extremely difficult time ahead and difficult negotiating positions may be all we have left after the downturn has run its inevitable course.
Everyone is patently aware that BA runs a one way T's & C's ratchet. A bit like the governments petrol tax system that only ever goes up. I am certainly not naive enough to think that anything post 2009 will be remotely easy nor that the management will look back and say 'hey guys, you really bailed us out back there, here's a bonus'.
However, when you are out of the starting blocks with T's & C's that are far, far, far above other departments, carrying block payments, meal payments, lateness credit, CAT turnarounds (the CAT doesn't even exist anymore but the payments do!) etc. how can you NOT expect to be in the firing line for rationalisation?
As you have alluded to, sensible, adult discussion over how the targets can be achieved with the minimum hit to the employees is the way ahead. What is sad is that a small minority of CC, possibly drip fed by BASSA throw the 'bring the company down' banner and that worries everyone else. The vast majority of CC have a well balanced and considered opinion of the situation and are hoping that a mutually conducive outcome can be achieved. I hope it goes well as I like the company and I like the crews I fly with.
p.s. Paragraphs help the reader immensely!
I know exactly how difficult, in fact nigh on impossible, the task of negotiation will be after the event. However we all need to face the reality that this is an extremely difficult time ahead and difficult negotiating positions may be all we have left after the downturn has run its inevitable course.
Everyone is patently aware that BA runs a one way T's & C's ratchet. A bit like the governments petrol tax system that only ever goes up. I am certainly not naive enough to think that anything post 2009 will be remotely easy nor that the management will look back and say 'hey guys, you really bailed us out back there, here's a bonus'.
However, when you are out of the starting blocks with T's & C's that are far, far, far above other departments, carrying block payments, meal payments, lateness credit, CAT turnarounds (the CAT doesn't even exist anymore but the payments do!) etc. how can you NOT expect to be in the firing line for rationalisation?
As you have alluded to, sensible, adult discussion over how the targets can be achieved with the minimum hit to the employees is the way ahead. What is sad is that a small minority of CC, possibly drip fed by BASSA throw the 'bring the company down' banner and that worries everyone else. The vast majority of CC have a well balanced and considered opinion of the situation and are hoping that a mutually conducive outcome can be achieved. I hope it goes well as I like the company and I like the crews I fly with.
p.s. Paragraphs help the reader immensely!
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I have no idea how to copy links into a post but I did read this line and smile.
just because the cabin crew want to maintain a standard of living which is well below that of pilots by the way, they have to be insulted and told that the cuts are necessary.
Well first of all its all about supply and demand the Pilots will have better pay etc as it is a skilled job, it takes years to qualify as a Pilot and I understand it is very expensive. So really it is silly to compare such a skilled job with another role that is to be frank an unskilled role. I am sure many crew will be insulted at this but think about it, how long does it take to train a crew member? 6-8 weeks I am guessing.
In reading this Post I have real concerns for BA as an organization and I suspect that many people here are posting in the guise of crew from other airlines, praying BA go on strike and then bankrupt, but trying hard to stir up emotions.
The bottom lines is that at the moment it is survival of the fittest for many organizations and many will only survive if others fail. In my organization there has been many people made redundant as we desperately try to cut costs and remain as competitive as we can. If we sat back and did nothing we would be out of business in a few months!
And as for this talk of this recession ending soon, I think you need to realign your expectations. The world government's have borrowed lots of money and we will all have to pay that back, and when people get back on their feet they will probably try and clear up arrears on credit cards and mortgages, not be flying around the world in Club World. Many businesses will be the same, they are losing Millions of Euros and they will keep very tight budgets for long after the recession has ended.
I fear for BA, your unions sound out of touch to me and I think you are all playing a dangerous game!
just because the cabin crew want to maintain a standard of living which is well below that of pilots by the way, they have to be insulted and told that the cuts are necessary.
Well first of all its all about supply and demand the Pilots will have better pay etc as it is a skilled job, it takes years to qualify as a Pilot and I understand it is very expensive. So really it is silly to compare such a skilled job with another role that is to be frank an unskilled role. I am sure many crew will be insulted at this but think about it, how long does it take to train a crew member? 6-8 weeks I am guessing.
In reading this Post I have real concerns for BA as an organization and I suspect that many people here are posting in the guise of crew from other airlines, praying BA go on strike and then bankrupt, but trying hard to stir up emotions.
The bottom lines is that at the moment it is survival of the fittest for many organizations and many will only survive if others fail. In my organization there has been many people made redundant as we desperately try to cut costs and remain as competitive as we can. If we sat back and did nothing we would be out of business in a few months!
And as for this talk of this recession ending soon, I think you need to realign your expectations. The world government's have borrowed lots of money and we will all have to pay that back, and when people get back on their feet they will probably try and clear up arrears on credit cards and mortgages, not be flying around the world in Club World. Many businesses will be the same, they are losing Millions of Euros and they will keep very tight budgets for long after the recession has ended.
I fear for BA, your unions sound out of touch to me and I think you are all playing a dangerous game!
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Seems to me there a number of distinct groups here. Those who are current BA CC who actually perform the role everyone else has an opinion about, BA flight crew who have themselves been through rationalisation but who enjoy salaries allowing them to buy big houses, second families, share porfolios based on advice received at the golf club etc with spare cash not committed to the immediate needs of the family, others in peripheral managerial airline roles with an "expert" opinion based on their life view/prejudices enabling them to ally themselves to their perceived friend Willie and then of course the all important "also rans" staffed by wannabe airline execs ( currently in Ops etc), BA lgw crew and ex lhr temps busting for another go. The BA CC deal with all the trials of managing a life in the South East of England with perpetual time zone changes, severe social disruption and the joys of slf without the benefit of a remuneration package they can hang onto although it was what they were promised when they joined. In addition they are lectured on how good they have it and how important they give it up for the sake of the company by groups earning five times as much! Shame on you. I keep reading my ATPL syllabus and I cannot find any mention of airline management in the course. Where did you guys go to learn it? Have I missed something?
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Pinkaroo, if you can't contribute to the debate why post your prejudices against pilots and others, it serves no useful purpose.
What I haven't seen is much in the way of suggestions as to how cc may minimise the pain to themselves, I have seen plenty of "well we are BA cabin crew so how dare anyone else have an opinion" which is pure militant BASSA-speak.
BA cabin crew don't have a monopoly on the job, there are plenty of posters on this forum who work as crew for other companies who know exactly how lucrative the job in BA can be for some.
BTW I am a BA pilot with a small 3-bedroom house, no 'second family' (whatever that is), no shares and I don't play golf, so please don't stereotype us, TVM.
What I haven't seen is much in the way of suggestions as to how cc may minimise the pain to themselves, I have seen plenty of "well we are BA cabin crew so how dare anyone else have an opinion" which is pure militant BASSA-speak.
BA cabin crew don't have a monopoly on the job, there are plenty of posters on this forum who work as crew for other companies who know exactly how lucrative the job in BA can be for some.
BTW I am a BA pilot with a small 3-bedroom house, no 'second family' (whatever that is), no shares and I don't play golf, so please don't stereotype us, TVM.
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Overstress, Consider for a moment the following. You take home £1800 and need every penny of it to pay a mortgage, a car loan, rising fuel and food costs. You have a job you thought meant you knew would pay you what you agreed and then along comes a little Irishman who decides to use a financial climate of fear to extract your future financial security from you in order to raise the share price and fulfill the bonus criteria. You become concerned and then aware that around you are the "chattering classes" all looking down their nose at you for being in possession of T & C's they don't have because he took them off them. Now do you see where I am coming from?. If you don't have the shares, golf clubs, big house and second family, don't worry you will. You must be new. Cheer up. It will happen!
Last edited by pinkaroo; 7th Apr 2009 at 23:03. Reason: addition of absent word
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It may be worth adding that BA cc have enjoyed better T&C's than very other cc in job in the country, so BA have profited from cherry picking the best cc from all those airlines.
Now those cabin crew that gave up their seniority, increments etc. to start all over again and work for the UK's premier airline without taking a pay cut that would prevent them from doing so (mortgages, loans etc..) are now facing a reduction in earnings that may well find them in a financial position that is less than they gave up. Yet BA can profit from having the best crew in the country at the same rate as every one else.
Just wait a moment before you slaughter me for suggesting that all BA crew are better than everyone else, they aint! The point is this; because they have the best T&C's they can attract everyone and therefore select the best. And if you think about it, where have most of all your best crew gone from your airline?......... If they can, they do!
It may be fair to suggest that anyone else that joins BA should be paid the industry rate because no-one with any seniority in any other airline will bother applying, so there is nothing to lose, only BA won't get a chance to employ tried and tested damn good crew.
Certainly times are changing and sure, BA management are going to milk it as much as possible but you do need to negotiate and offer a professional and constructive compromise that will see you through these tough times whilst still offering you a career (not just a job) when times get better.
6
Now those cabin crew that gave up their seniority, increments etc. to start all over again and work for the UK's premier airline without taking a pay cut that would prevent them from doing so (mortgages, loans etc..) are now facing a reduction in earnings that may well find them in a financial position that is less than they gave up. Yet BA can profit from having the best crew in the country at the same rate as every one else.
Just wait a moment before you slaughter me for suggesting that all BA crew are better than everyone else, they aint! The point is this; because they have the best T&C's they can attract everyone and therefore select the best. And if you think about it, where have most of all your best crew gone from your airline?......... If they can, they do!
It may be fair to suggest that anyone else that joins BA should be paid the industry rate because no-one with any seniority in any other airline will bother applying, so there is nothing to lose, only BA won't get a chance to employ tried and tested damn good crew.
Certainly times are changing and sure, BA management are going to milk it as much as possible but you do need to negotiate and offer a professional and constructive compromise that will see you through these tough times whilst still offering you a career (not just a job) when times get better.
6
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The Role Of Ba Cabin Crew
At the heart of this issue,is the role of BA cabin crew.
To those who do not do the job,let me give you an insight. Longhaul crew report for duty, on a 747, 15, sometimes 16 crew,depending on the route. At the briefing they are introduced to each other, more often than not,total strangers. Briefing on the flight, booked loads, special passengers, flight time, safety and security questions, aviation medicine, emergency senarios, all run through with thoroughness.
Proceed to the aircraft,complete safety and security checks and prepare for passenger boarding.
The team then provide the inflight product to the passengers, usually in 4 different class of cabin, sometimes 3 classes, again dependent on aircraft type and route. Customers cover the total social spectrum, their needs and expectations are just as diverse, all expect to have their needs met and hopefully surpassed. The inflight surveys taken on each flight constantly put the cabin crew at the top of the customer experience, making up for shortfalls elsewhere in the overall travel experience.
On a 12 hour flight anything can happen,from dealing with intoxicated passengers,to sadly, a death on board, all of which are dealt with professionally by the crew, as they are trained to do so. The cabin crew often recover situations where customers are dissatisfied. As the norm, they strive to offer exceptional customer service and do everything possible to satisfy customer demands. Service matters more than ever as companies strive to maintain their customer base and cabin crew play a vital role in maintaining loyalty from regular customers.
To dismiss their role as a financial burden that needs to be adjusted to the market rate, makes the terrible mistake of failing to realise the contribution they make to the success of the company,day in and day out. The diversity of the crew, their multitude of skills and in most cases, real passion for the role and looking after their customers cannot be underestimated.
The workforce is unique and worth far more than the market rate which is the only target in managements eyes. In a customer service industry,the employees make or break the company. In BA's case, the crew are vital to its success. I hope that the management realise the contribution cabin crew make and stop seeing them as just another cost to be slashed.
To those who do not do the job,let me give you an insight. Longhaul crew report for duty, on a 747, 15, sometimes 16 crew,depending on the route. At the briefing they are introduced to each other, more often than not,total strangers. Briefing on the flight, booked loads, special passengers, flight time, safety and security questions, aviation medicine, emergency senarios, all run through with thoroughness.
Proceed to the aircraft,complete safety and security checks and prepare for passenger boarding.
The team then provide the inflight product to the passengers, usually in 4 different class of cabin, sometimes 3 classes, again dependent on aircraft type and route. Customers cover the total social spectrum, their needs and expectations are just as diverse, all expect to have their needs met and hopefully surpassed. The inflight surveys taken on each flight constantly put the cabin crew at the top of the customer experience, making up for shortfalls elsewhere in the overall travel experience.
On a 12 hour flight anything can happen,from dealing with intoxicated passengers,to sadly, a death on board, all of which are dealt with professionally by the crew, as they are trained to do so. The cabin crew often recover situations where customers are dissatisfied. As the norm, they strive to offer exceptional customer service and do everything possible to satisfy customer demands. Service matters more than ever as companies strive to maintain their customer base and cabin crew play a vital role in maintaining loyalty from regular customers.
To dismiss their role as a financial burden that needs to be adjusted to the market rate, makes the terrible mistake of failing to realise the contribution they make to the success of the company,day in and day out. The diversity of the crew, their multitude of skills and in most cases, real passion for the role and looking after their customers cannot be underestimated.
The workforce is unique and worth far more than the market rate which is the only target in managements eyes. In a customer service industry,the employees make or break the company. In BA's case, the crew are vital to its success. I hope that the management realise the contribution cabin crew make and stop seeing them as just another cost to be slashed.
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pinkaroo you missed my point with diving straight in talking about take-home pay. I will repeat my contribution, namely, where are the suggestions from crew which could help make the savings required with a minimal impact on pay?
And no, not new to BA, (10 years+) I just have a very modest lifestyle which will not change despite your confident predictions. And I will never take up golf
And no, not new to BA, (10 years+) I just have a very modest lifestyle which will not change despite your confident predictions. And I will never take up golf
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bermudatriangle
That is the same for any member of cabin crew at any airline. To read your post and suggest that their dedication is any different to yours is crass at the very least. I do not change my assessment of the situation at BA for many of the crew employed there, as I have stated in my previous post.
An attitude of superior indifference to all other cabin crew that do exactly what you have said BA crew do and thus deserve your T&C's is wrong. You need to re-evaluate your argument.
6
An attitude of superior indifference to all other cabin crew that do exactly what you have said BA crew do and thus deserve your T&C's is wrong. You need to re-evaluate your argument.
6
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And I bermuda triangle, salute you for the job you do! Perhaps others should pause and consider what you just told them. Good luck to you all! The Europeanisation of this beautiful land sickens me. A determined policy to downgrade standards to the lowest common denominator have meant quality has been replaced by quantity. Come on FC. Step out from behind your Daily Telegraghs and take a stand. Don't be part of the problem. I fly BA because you chaps keep me safe,and because you get me there on time. I am as proud of the drivers up the front as I am of the CC down the back.
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Market Rate.
This is what your management team are looking at. Market rate is not just about pay though. A car is just not a car. If a BA crew members product on offer, is better than who they are being compared against, then the market rate for a cabin crew member (average) across the UK, is not a valid measure.
If you can justify your wage against your competitors in the UK, then WW is being unreasonable. The law does not look at your mortgage and standard of living though. However, if a business just decided to reduce your wage, they would also be acting unreasonably, especially if there were other methods whereby costs could be controlled.
Should a BA B747 captain be on any more than a Virgin B747 captain? Come to think of it, should a BA captain be on more than an Easy captain? I would hope not. I do not know the figures, so I cannot comment with any facts to back me up. I would imagine that an Easy captain has a worse scheduling agreement, just because they are a newer company and have not had the time to establish a benefits package in line with a legacy carrier.
However, the crew are the face of the product. They have an active involvement in achieving repeat business. All pilots takeoff and land, no matter who pays their wage.
This is what your management team are looking at. Market rate is not just about pay though. A car is just not a car. If a BA crew members product on offer, is better than who they are being compared against, then the market rate for a cabin crew member (average) across the UK, is not a valid measure.
If you can justify your wage against your competitors in the UK, then WW is being unreasonable. The law does not look at your mortgage and standard of living though. However, if a business just decided to reduce your wage, they would also be acting unreasonably, especially if there were other methods whereby costs could be controlled.
Should a BA B747 captain be on any more than a Virgin B747 captain? Come to think of it, should a BA captain be on more than an Easy captain? I would hope not. I do not know the figures, so I cannot comment with any facts to back me up. I would imagine that an Easy captain has a worse scheduling agreement, just because they are a newer company and have not had the time to establish a benefits package in line with a legacy carrier.
However, the crew are the face of the product. They have an active involvement in achieving repeat business. All pilots takeoff and land, no matter who pays their wage.
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Pinkaroo,
Can you please, please please stop trying to complain about disparity between CC and FC pay, terms and conditions. There have been many hotly debated threads on the matter and they are not, in any way shape or form comparable.
I don't want to side track the thread so I will keep it as brief as possible. There are a very small minority who, whenever T's & C's are discussed believe there should be parity between FC and CC. I am happy to say that most of the intelligent, often degree holding CC, see it for exactly what it is, which is remuneration for the years of studying and flying for the licence and the constant checks required to keep them current. Coupled with the responsibility, placed upon the Captain by the company, passengers and insurers with a $250 million aircraft, crew and passengers.
Pinkaroo, if you are indeed doing or have done your ATPL studies as you seem to intimate then you will realise that, as with most courses, the detail of the course is for the attainment of the licence. Once achieved the real learning begins with most pilots hopping RHS-LHS from turbo prop to regional jet and then finally to international carrier. There are exceptions which are the cadets or Self Sponsored Pilots who have to pass a rigorous selection process even before touching an aircraft. As to qualifications, I do indeed have an MBA, which comes in handy whilst watching the junior managers trying to keep all the blocks from falling. I am not, however, neither will I ever become airline management. I have left that far behind.
It is market forces at play here. The CC in BA have long enjoyed above market rates compared with their peers operating similar aircraft on similar routes with similar cabin configurations. Some might say they should have been aware of that and the events unfolding around them and possibly put something aside. That is not for me to say. What I will say is that this was bound to come. Anything above the parapet in this economic storm is going to get weathered away and the best thing that the unions can do now is try and work with the company to build the parapet a bit higher whilst accepting that there will be some loss.
Can you please, please please stop trying to complain about disparity between CC and FC pay, terms and conditions. There have been many hotly debated threads on the matter and they are not, in any way shape or form comparable.
I don't want to side track the thread so I will keep it as brief as possible. There are a very small minority who, whenever T's & C's are discussed believe there should be parity between FC and CC. I am happy to say that most of the intelligent, often degree holding CC, see it for exactly what it is, which is remuneration for the years of studying and flying for the licence and the constant checks required to keep them current. Coupled with the responsibility, placed upon the Captain by the company, passengers and insurers with a $250 million aircraft, crew and passengers.
Pinkaroo, if you are indeed doing or have done your ATPL studies as you seem to intimate then you will realise that, as with most courses, the detail of the course is for the attainment of the licence. Once achieved the real learning begins with most pilots hopping RHS-LHS from turbo prop to regional jet and then finally to international carrier. There are exceptions which are the cadets or Self Sponsored Pilots who have to pass a rigorous selection process even before touching an aircraft. As to qualifications, I do indeed have an MBA, which comes in handy whilst watching the junior managers trying to keep all the blocks from falling. I am not, however, neither will I ever become airline management. I have left that far behind.
It is market forces at play here. The CC in BA have long enjoyed above market rates compared with their peers operating similar aircraft on similar routes with similar cabin configurations. Some might say they should have been aware of that and the events unfolding around them and possibly put something aside. That is not for me to say. What I will say is that this was bound to come. Anything above the parapet in this economic storm is going to get weathered away and the best thing that the unions can do now is try and work with the company to build the parapet a bit higher whilst accepting that there will be some loss.