BA and Project Columbus III
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Wobble, I agree with everything you say..except, there is no need to force anything through. Everyone wants the airline to survive and thrive, but there has to be a balance.
The whole situation at the moment is a question of style. The workforce and in particular customer contact staff, must not be left feeling bitter and resentful, as so much of the success of British Airways is founded on the morale of its people. Mr Walsh lacks charisma, he does not inspire people, he does not give them hope. It is just blood, sweat and tears with no light at the end of the tunnel.
When the feelgood factor has gone, British Airways will have lost the magic that seems to be so attractive to our customers.
The whole situation at the moment is a question of style. The workforce and in particular customer contact staff, must not be left feeling bitter and resentful, as so much of the success of British Airways is founded on the morale of its people. Mr Walsh lacks charisma, he does not inspire people, he does not give them hope. It is just blood, sweat and tears with no light at the end of the tunnel.
When the feelgood factor has gone, British Airways will have lost the magic that seems to be so attractive to our customers.
Couldonlyaffordafiver
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Now that we have proved that the pilots are making changes to their T&Cs, why is BASSA still denying that this is the case?
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Yes Witraz. I am advocating Walsh should go. He has got the right style to be a union negotiator, but not a CEO of a great company like BA. He should have stuck with IALPA.
Regarding the laying up of aircraft, your point is disingenuous as you probably know that 7 of those 16 aircraft were going anyway to OS. The 744's should have been grounded before the summer schedule.
It is generally agreed that Mr Walsh has been slow to react to market conditions and has not cut capacity soon enough. The self inflicted situation over fuel hedging would have been mitigated if more aircraft had of been grounded earlier. Crew have been gagging for part time and unpaid leave since autumn last year, but the LT have held back on offering it.
I would suggest it is best to have a shortage of capacity, rather than a surplus at the moment.
Regarding the laying up of aircraft, your point is disingenuous as you probably know that 7 of those 16 aircraft were going anyway to OS. The 744's should have been grounded before the summer schedule.
It is generally agreed that Mr Walsh has been slow to react to market conditions and has not cut capacity soon enough. The self inflicted situation over fuel hedging would have been mitigated if more aircraft had of been grounded earlier. Crew have been gagging for part time and unpaid leave since autumn last year, but the LT have held back on offering it.
I would suggest it is best to have a shortage of capacity, rather than a surplus at the moment.
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Apparently from what I have heard negotiations aren't really progressing at all.
This is what I will fear will happen:
- No settlement will be agreed before June 30th.
- BA will implent itsp proposal and also draw back all offers for temporary and permanent unpaid leave, part-time and VR.
- BASSA will go ahead with its scheduled meeting on July 6th.
- Most members will probably vote for a strike.
- BA will go ahead with CR and dismiss 2000 HCE (which means anything between 2000 to 4000 people as presented last week). I could say goodbye then!
This is what I will fear will happen:
- No settlement will be agreed before June 30th.
- BA will implent itsp proposal and also draw back all offers for temporary and permanent unpaid leave, part-time and VR.
- BASSA will go ahead with its scheduled meeting on July 6th.
- Most members will probably vote for a strike.
- BA will go ahead with CR and dismiss 2000 HCE (which means anything between 2000 to 4000 people as presented last week). I could say goodbye then!
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PiB
I agree, but then again if you do this you have to have a quick reaction time, no use grounding the planes then taking 3 months negotiating with the Unions about how to handle the surplus, which lets face it is what happens.
The fuel hedging propaganda is a red herring, most people see straight through this, and others have sought to explain it to you, nevertheless I guess because BASSA keep saying it, well it must be true
The 744's should have been grounded before the summer schedule.
The fuel hedging propaganda is a red herring, most people see straight through this, and others have sought to explain it to you, nevertheless I guess because BASSA keep saying it, well it must be true
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. Crew have been gagging for part time and unpaid leave since autumn last year, but the LT have held back on offering it.
By the way BA has made a profit of 1.5 billion pounds on fuel hedgeing in the last 5 years, and has half of its fuel hedged at $60 a barrel for this year (check the current price).
As well as the productivity changes others have posted the pilots have taken a pay cut of about £5000-£6000 a year (if voted). Can anyone call this a sweetheart deal?
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Stall-Pusher, I hope that you are kidding and just trying to stoke the fire. If what you are saying in your recent posts is REALLY what you believe then you need to get your head out of the sand ASAP and smell the coffee.
How many times do you need telling, we are in the mire. Our cash reserve is running out, our revenue is collapsing and our passenger stats are disastrous. Getting the picture?? I would also add that had it not been for som VERY smart guys in currency/fuel hedging departments we would already be insolvent.
BASSA need to get their communications in shape, they should stop lying to their members and spinning their rubbish about the pilots deal, I am a pilot (as if you hadn't guessed) and am looking at £300-400 less per month, no change to my T&Cs - much!! Comparing Pilots to CC is like comparing Doctors and Nurses - give it up.
Good luck on the dole, the way you talk we'll all be there before Christmas
How many times do you need telling, we are in the mire. Our cash reserve is running out, our revenue is collapsing and our passenger stats are disastrous. Getting the picture?? I would also add that had it not been for som VERY smart guys in currency/fuel hedging departments we would already be insolvent.
BASSA need to get their communications in shape, they should stop lying to their members and spinning their rubbish about the pilots deal, I am a pilot (as if you hadn't guessed) and am looking at £300-400 less per month, no change to my T&Cs - much!! Comparing Pilots to CC is like comparing Doctors and Nurses - give it up.
Good luck on the dole, the way you talk we'll all be there before Christmas
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Rod Edington once said that airlines don't save any money with fuel hedging: "you still end up paying the middle man".
Flap33, you shouldn't believe everything that Willie tells you.
Are you trying to say that BA is in a worse financial condiiton than Aer Lingus?
What about Alitalia, how are they going to keep going with all those old aircraft? But they will.
What about JAL with U$20bn of accumulated debt? Makes our little loss rather insignificant.
Will Olympic struggle on or are they doing better than BA? And SAS too, there is nothing in the papers about them going bust imminently.
And Air France/KLM. If things were not bad enough, they lose another aircraft. Will they go bust? I don't think so.
And Lufthansa; they have just given their cabin crew a pay rise. They are investing in their product and upgrading to encourage brand loyalty. And BA is going to take crew off and go low cost as a long haul carrier. Who is right, LH or BA?
And all the US carriers, they seem to be getting along just fine. Why?
I could go on..Qantas, Cathay...what about Virgin? Still there after BA as gone? How could that be true, just because they pay their cabin crew less?
So why is British Airways in such a crisis? Why is British Airways so close to bankruptcy and all these other carriers will still be flying after we have gone.
Perhaps their management have not made all of the gaffs BA's have? It must be true, they are better run and managed, surely?
Flap33, you shouldn't believe everything that Willie tells you.
Are you trying to say that BA is in a worse financial condiiton than Aer Lingus?
What about Alitalia, how are they going to keep going with all those old aircraft? But they will.
What about JAL with U$20bn of accumulated debt? Makes our little loss rather insignificant.
Will Olympic struggle on or are they doing better than BA? And SAS too, there is nothing in the papers about them going bust imminently.
And Air France/KLM. If things were not bad enough, they lose another aircraft. Will they go bust? I don't think so.
And Lufthansa; they have just given their cabin crew a pay rise. They are investing in their product and upgrading to encourage brand loyalty. And BA is going to take crew off and go low cost as a long haul carrier. Who is right, LH or BA?
And all the US carriers, they seem to be getting along just fine. Why?
I could go on..Qantas, Cathay...what about Virgin? Still there after BA as gone? How could that be true, just because they pay their cabin crew less?
So why is British Airways in such a crisis? Why is British Airways so close to bankruptcy and all these other carriers will still be flying after we have gone.
Perhaps their management have not made all of the gaffs BA's have? It must be true, they are better run and managed, surely?
Last edited by Stall Pusher; 19th Jun 2009 at 20:39.
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LH is definitely doing something right!
One should also take into consideration that they do operate many flights with minimum crew (I have had 4 CC on A321) and they do mixed flying as well. Perhaps something BA should try as well?
One should also take into consideration that they do operate many flights with minimum crew (I have had 4 CC on A321) and they do mixed flying as well. Perhaps something BA should try as well?
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We had mixed flying once, it was called the Mid Fleet. It was a great success, but BA stopped it.
I am sure many people would like to see that agreement re-introduced.
SFG crew love their mixed flying at LGW, but they would rather be at LHR.
Reading back through this thread, it is apparent that the Flight Crew very much like to pose as the intelligent professionals, whereas the cabin crew are viewed as the easily replacable un-educated workforce, that by some freak of nature has a 'militant', solid and too-strong a Trade Union backing them up.
Privately many Flight Crew rather envy the cheekiness and strength of BASSA and wish it wasn't just a cabin crew union. If only their 'association' had the strength to stand up to Willie.
I am sure many people would like to see that agreement re-introduced.
SFG crew love their mixed flying at LGW, but they would rather be at LHR.
Reading back through this thread, it is apparent that the Flight Crew very much like to pose as the intelligent professionals, whereas the cabin crew are viewed as the easily replacable un-educated workforce, that by some freak of nature has a 'militant', solid and too-strong a Trade Union backing them up.
Privately many Flight Crew rather envy the cheekiness and strength of BASSA and wish it wasn't just a cabin crew union. If only their 'association' had the strength to stand up to Willie.
Last edited by Stall Pusher; 19th Jun 2009 at 20:50.
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You have mixed fleet flying! It is being done everyday in LGW.
So easy for the junior minions down the road in Crawley to slip the mind of the British Airways Senior Stewards Association...again.
So easy for the junior minions down the road in Crawley to slip the mind of the British Airways Senior Stewards Association...again.
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Stall-Pusher, your resolve is admirable.
General Motors, AIG and Lehmans WERE all massive companies within their sectors. Don't think that because we are BA we can't go the same way.
I hope that you are right, and I am wrong. Time will tell.
General Motors, AIG and Lehmans WERE all massive companies within their sectors. Don't think that because we are BA we can't go the same way.
I hope that you are right, and I am wrong. Time will tell.
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Privately many Flight Crew rather envy the cheekiness and strength of BASSA and wish it wasn't just a cabin crew union. If only their 'association' had the strength to stand up to Willie.
What is clear is that BASSA, at the highest level, is seeking to distort the information it has been given by BALPA re the pilot agreement. Is this because they wish to further the likelihood of a strike?
What may well happen is this: BASSA will fail to agree by the deadline. I'm told that there is no BASSA plan other than to stand ground over the its agreements. The deadline will pass, BA will impose its new conditions and take all current offers off the table. BASSA will recommend a strike. BA will then use its barristers to go straight to the High Court and seek an injunction rendering the strike illegal - it will use the 'SOSR' (Some other substantial reason) defence. Any illegal action will be dealt with under BA's EG300 absence management policy.
Additionally, BASSA's current policy of mis-representing (by partly quoting) other groups agreements will be used against them by BA in the courts. All communications by BASSA will be examined and used against them, if BA can, to render any strike action illegal.
Meanwhile, BA will be making crew redundant in accordance with the plan.
Controversially, they could declare that the role of CSD is redundant and sack them all. In the interim, BASSA will be hamstrung by the High Court injunction and unable to act. Any strikers will be sacked as the strike will be illegal.
I'm extremely sorry to write the above as I have many friends who are crew, and I have no wish to see them suffer. However these are harsh times and these are the hard facts being kept from BASSA's members.
It may help outsiders to know that two thirds of the cabin crew pay budget in BA is currently spent on only one third of the workforce...
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Stall Pusher - I'm with Flap33 and many others who've tried to get through to you. BA is in serious financial trouble. Time for you to wake up and smell the coffee ........ please for all our sakes.
Like you I don't like WW, nor do I trust him, but I'd far rather err on the side of caution than be reckless and be part of a group that puts thousands of us out of work and living on the streets.
Have you seen the unemployment figures lately, do you know how many people are applying for every job out there?
Like you I don't like WW, nor do I trust him, but I'd far rather err on the side of caution than be reckless and be part of a group that puts thousands of us out of work and living on the streets.
Have you seen the unemployment figures lately, do you know how many people are applying for every job out there?
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Stallpusher
I reiterate my previous post
I don't think Gareth Kirkwood was entirely blameless regarding the T5 fiasco either. Just my humble opinion though.
If he can unashamedly sack two directors over T5, then everyone is at risk who gets in his way.
One of those 2 "sacrificial lambs" was Cargo MD at the time of the price-fixing scandal. Delayed retribution?
I don't think Gareth Kirkwood was entirely blameless regarding the T5 fiasco either. Just my humble opinion though.
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The sacking of the directors: WW had promoted them specifically into the T5 role, they screwed up and were sacked, end of story. This is a red herring to the BASSA failure to agree issue which is what this thread is about.
If WW was to keel over and die tomorrow, BA would still be taking the same survival action, so it is irrelevant to fixate on the man, play the ball instead (as the moderators are fond of telling me!
)
If WW was to keel over and die tomorrow, BA would still be taking the same survival action, so it is irrelevant to fixate on the man, play the ball instead (as the moderators are fond of telling me!
)
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If Kirkwood and Noyes "screwed up", why have they not been allowed to speak to the press and discuss exactly where they went wrong? Are they still on the payroll? Where are they working now?
Walsh refused to answer the question twice when asked by MP Louise Ellman at the Commons Transport Select Committees investigation into the T5 debacle, when she asked whether the two directors had signed 'confidentiality agreements'.
Yes it would make a huge difference it Walsh left. We need another CEO like Rod Eddington. He reduced BA's debt and steered us through the aftermath of 9/11 without whacking his employees. I would say that situation Eddington faced was worse than now because it was sudden and unexpected.
If the same measures had been adopted last year proactively, rather than reactively now, we would be in much better shape.
Walsh refused to answer the question twice when asked by MP Louise Ellman at the Commons Transport Select Committees investigation into the T5 debacle, when she asked whether the two directors had signed 'confidentiality agreements'.
Yes it would make a huge difference it Walsh left. We need another CEO like Rod Eddington. He reduced BA's debt and steered us through the aftermath of 9/11 without whacking his employees. I would say that situation Eddington faced was worse than now because it was sudden and unexpected.
If the same measures had been adopted last year proactively, rather than reactively now, we would be in much better shape.
Last edited by Stall Pusher; 19th Jun 2009 at 22:15.
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This link here should help you, sacked=left the company?
Walsh would have been in trouble if the longhaul move had gone badly, but it didn't.
Eddington, as has been mentioned repeatedly above, did not have to deal with the effects of a global economic meltdown, premium traffic did not decline (after 9/11) to the extent it has now, so he could afford not to tackle the elephant in the room.
Walsh would have been in trouble if the longhaul move had gone badly, but it didn't.
Eddington, as has been mentioned repeatedly above, did not have to deal with the effects of a global economic meltdown, premium traffic did not decline (after 9/11) to the extent it has now, so he could afford not to tackle the elephant in the room.
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If Kirkwood and Noyes "screwed up", why have they not been allowed to speak to the press and discuss exactly where they went wrong? Are they still on the payroll? Where are they working now? Why are they hiding?
Back to topic........