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Virgin Blue Cabin Crew EBA

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Virgin Blue Cabin Crew EBA

Old 18th Feb 2009, 21:05
  #121 (permalink)  
 
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We all want the company to thrive

ccguy,

127 excess crew is not a lot spread over 3 bases. The natural attrition alone would take care of this number in less than 6 months. Add to that the number of people who will move across to V and we will be back at optimal crew compliments within 3 months.

Consider how long the part-time lists are in the various bases. Several hundred long, here is an opportunity for many of those crew to get their wish and go part-time right away, at least for a month or two. I myself am seriously seeing it as a great opportunity to take a little more time off this year than just my annual leave will allow.

The sticking point with the agreement I believe isn't that it's a recession and we all need to pitch in. It's the feeling that we will never have the opportunity to negotiate good conditions with the company again. If they came to us and said "lets put together a short term agreement to save your jobs and the company over 2 years" then they'd get a different response I'm sure. But they are not saying that, they are saying "times are bad now, we can't afford this and we want to lock in much lower rates forever". But the company will experience high profitability again and crew quite rightly don't want to be left holding onto cheap conditions while the company rakes in extra profits in the good times.
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Old 19th Feb 2009, 00:59
  #122 (permalink)  
 
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Exclamation clause shopping

..I would love to see the company put a clause in the EBA that states if the world economy takes a turn for the better and the company starts to make money hand over fist, that we would be able to get a better remuneration from this point.
I found one

Should ..(blah blah happen).. adversely affecting the profitability of Virgin Blue, the Association and Virgin Blue may review the salaries ... This review will only take place to ensure the ongoing employment of all staff.

..because the company are reluctant to have a clause like this, but hey, its worth trying.
reluctant?
maybe its only the current management who are ..reluctant
or maybe
or absent minded
proceed to checkout current clause 14(d)
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Old 23rd Mar 2009, 12:55
  #123 (permalink)  
 
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i see your point but...

We have to be careful about what we negotiate away in tough times to "keep our jobs" as just like you have mentioned, times will again be good - that is the nature of market economies - what we give away now, we will never get back and i think we have given enough over the past decade. i too don't bank on my allowances, but on my base salary and it is a sad fact that our base salary is now below the average wage. should it be? hell no. our role is not only about safety - and we've all seen or been involved in some worrisome situations at times, be they medical emergencies, out of control pax, or putting our EP's into practise. for all of these reasons, along with the shift work hours, long days on our feet without any real breaks etc. we SHOULD be paid at least an average wage, if not above it. my friends and family outside of the industry can't believe how little we really get paid for what we do. on top of all of that, our role is not just important from a safety perspective, but IS pivotal in the longevity of the company. It is US, that ensures passengers ultimately want to fly with us again and for all the great deals in the world, if we upset a passenger, we have burnt them which equals lost income for the company. The higher echelons of management have no real respect for what we do, and who we are, they treat us like numbers that are disposable. Ever wondered why they say 25-30% pay cut? well what is it? 25%? 28% what? and how come it is somewhere in the range? and when exactly does it come into effect? from the next payslip after the announcement? or at the start of the next financial year? like their pay rises usually do. Richard Tanner is on a $360k package - $270 cash in hand - go look it up on the annual report. is he really worth that? honestly? is anyone??? and he has the audacity to swear at us whilst asking us for more? be careful what you are prepared to give up for the sake of thinking it will keep your job safe. i personally am sick of seeing photos of the "boys" on their junkets whilst us at the coal face have to beg for a measly 3.5% pay rise - that we have to do more work for, so not really a pay rise. it is a joke and i'll be voting no because i take pride in what i do, do it well, care about our guests, and i'm worth it.
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Old 23rd Mar 2009, 23:06
  #124 (permalink)  
 
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Im not even DJ crew, but that previous post was spot on!!! I could not pass by without commenting.
Good luck guys in your negotiations. As a fellow Flight Attendant, you deserve better.
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Old 25th Mar 2009, 04:22
  #125 (permalink)  
 
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CBR_1 thank YOU!
the ultimate point
the retail is in the detail
RT negotiated a 15% increase on what was BH's annual salary
AD negotiated a 10% annual salary increase from 2007 to 2008
for 2007 to 2008 i've only received one quarter of a 3% salary increase
from jul 2007 to sep 2007 nothing since
RT has the audacity to not negotiate with us
on these figures he won't get us for a bargain unless he bargains
lets go for 15% same as RT
but we'll be fair make it over 3years instead of 1
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Old 6th Apr 2009, 08:33
  #126 (permalink)  
 
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Thumbs down Draft

What is the deal with telling us they did not have enough time to roster the latest roadshow proposals and that we have to make time to come in ourselves.
I can't even make times to see my friends/family let alone come in for this. Now I will have to come in off a day off (which i should be getting the $250 but wont) or have an 11-12 hour day (and won't be paid accordingly either).It SHOULD have been rostered, this is a total joke, everything about this new EBA is an utter joke.
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Old 6th Apr 2009, 21:19
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DJTibby, just tell your DM that you cant make a session and organise a meeting with them instead. RW put that at the bottom of the email.
--
I too believe that a day off should be $250 and available minimum of 4 hours or overtime after your shift if it actually fits in. They are getting desperate now as I think they finally realise its going to be a hard sell to get it over the line. The rumours over whats been changed and what hasnt are rife, so the initial info sessions back in Jan have probably created more uncertainty.
Just give me a hard copy to read with a cover sheet on whats changing and whats not for those who cant be bothered reading the whole document.
Meanwhile crew including those who are on the committee are just saying vote no. I don't think I've heard anyone say vote yes. Another million wasted.

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Old 9th Apr 2009, 01:08
  #128 (permalink)  
 
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Personally I think they already get great value from their crew, how many companies have people happy to come to work, glad to clean a toilet, smile and every person that walks into your workplace etc...?. Cut the wage to the bare minimum and you'll only ever be able to hire people who will work to the bare minimum. I'd hate to see a great brand go under this way. The love of flying only keeps people in it for so long. Sooner or later they have to pay their bills, save for their retirement and pay a mortgage.

Cut costs where it doesn't show. Become more efficient managers, use technology to make gains. Don't skimp on your crew. That would be like skimping on seat covers. Everyone will notice the difference very quickly.

You can't direct someone to have a positive attitude, take the initiative and look after your interests. Those qualities have to be in the person first and people with those qualitites have many options in life. They will go where the money goes.
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Old 9th Apr 2009, 08:10
  #129 (permalink)  
 
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accept it at your own risk...

So, they hand out a sheet of paper that highlights the changes from what we currently have to what we get (as they see it). And if the document is so good why are they so desperate to get us in for another roadshow? Do they think we can't read? Do they think that as a group we won't be able to make sense of the document and so need them to do it for us? Once again, demonstrates their lack of respect for us as a group. If what is on offer is so good, could someone please tell me why they don't highlight all the things they are taking away?

1. Annual leave loading - which is $500 plus per year - so future losses of that amount less per year, but also what you have owed in annual leave from previous years but haven't been able to take no matter how hard you have tried.

2. Buffers around days off greater than one and, they have not stated what the buffer around the single day is (and apparently don't want to put it in the document) so one can only assume it is less than the current 14hrs - why not state it otherwise?

3. Freezing our allowances so that they are no longer raised to reflect changes in the cost of living. This includes the overnight allowance which has always been paid by virginblue well below the tax free threshold as set by the ATO - so the gap will just continue to widen - and once again this is determined by the ATO based on the cost of living.

4. Effectively no pay rise for 4 years by the time we get one, and this pay rise will be based (i.e. the percentage worked out on) a 2007 wage. So, a wage that has not risen in line with any changes in the cost of living - they're arguing that the cost of living will go down now as a result of the depression and probably hoping that none of us have economic degrees and that the we are also stupid but, the cost of living went UP during the Great Depression of the 1920's and many Economists' are suggesting this will again be the case. The next 2 years of bonus payments are nothing more than trying to ensure they make it look good even though it will leave us worse off in the long run. My vote is not for sale!

5. By freezing our allowances, rather than indexing as is the case now (and has always been the case) they are putting us even further behind the 8 ball. We will be earning a 2007 wage, paying 2009, 2010, 2011 etc. prices and so the money we're earning we will be having to pay more out of effectively to live. For the next 3 years no adjustement will be made to balance out the increase in value of our expenses.

6. By increasing our hourly max. you will notice a decrease in your over nights - easier to get crew back to home port - especially as they now have an extra 5 hours per month to toy with.

7. Our min. rest is now 12 hours at home port, not 15. By making it a bid option, the default setting is 12. The pilots have it the other way around - they still get default of 15 but can bid for 12.

8. As for available days, since when is 18 hours max. the end of the never ending day? And another thing, the available rate stays the same for the life of the document. So, if they do in fact call you out on an available in 2 years from now (after we finally get a pay rise), you may in fact end up being paid less than your standard hourly rate at the time.

9. Here is the most important thing...if we sign this, we are signing these changes in forever. WE WILL NEVER GET THEM BACK. Did they give us anything back in this one? We will send a message that says "you can get away with this and we will let you" so next time we sit at the table they will know just how pliable we really are. Maybe they will just settle for bonus payments for every year in the next year, and no pay rise? If we were happy with it for 2 years, why not try for every year next time? Maybe they'll try and take away our allowances all together? If we didn't mind them freezing them this time, would we care if they took them away?
We will be instrumental in signing away all of those rights that protected our health, our safety and our sanity that colleagues before us, fought for. Some may call them old-boilers but maybe that is just because they were tough and stood their ground. Let's make sure we do this career proud and protect it from those that want to turn it into a transient job. They say that is what it is now but how many crew do you know that have been here since it's early days? It isn't as transient as they would like us to believe. Let's keep it real and not buy into their new round of propaganda!
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Old 11th Apr 2009, 15:45
  #130 (permalink)  
 
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Well said CBR_1..

it's a disgrace!

They are beginning to show signs of desperation - moreso than the 'Raj Show' last time (were we buying discounted carpets or voting on our future?).

Wear them down, slowly but surely. Most wont realise, but success is already being realised through their desperate attempts to brainwash.

They see cabin crew as pliable ditz'.

They don't realise that cabin crew live their lives observing human behaviour, and are GENERALLY hard to 'trick'...

They're no different to a drunk who's just had open heart surgery yesterday trying to board a Darwin... They can play it down all they like, but we will catch em before the door closes!
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Old 16th Apr 2009, 15:58
  #131 (permalink)  
 
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lets get the message out!

This seems to be the only safe place to voice any opinion that does not tow the company line. We need to get as many crew as we can on to this site - if only so that they can read a differing point of view before they cast their vote. I'm beginning to understand that most crew just don't realise the impact signing this document will have on them long term. Sure there are some out there that won't be here long term and so don't care, they just want their $2500 before they run BUT, many others do want to stick around.
The eba guys i think are doing the best they can, but they are only 6 (is it 5?whatever, not many) people and can't talk to everybody and give them all the facts. Plus, they are in a tricky place. I'm sure they can only say so much. They don't have the union on their side as days of old. If people truly want to vote yes, so be it, i will live with it, that is their choice and hopefully they have good reason, but lets make sure bfore the time comes for voting we have given our fellow crew the chance to see a different point of view to the one they gave us in the roadshows. We still live in a democratic country afterall....shouldn't both sides get a true voice?
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Old 20th Apr 2009, 03:07
  #132 (permalink)  
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Draft is out on the intranet if you care to read it. I think the increases would be great if we kept the 140 hours p/m. To increase to 140 hours p/28 days is a big ask. The overtime will be difficult to achieve and they will definitely being needing alot less of us if this gets through. It looks like at least 10% increase in productivity with standard pay rises. Overtime will be all but dead as they roster everyone to 140 hours before they let people go to OT. Can anyone remember the last time they got drafted? OT will be the same.
So if you think that they are over staffed now they will be well and truly over staffed if this gets up.
The company wants performance based redundancy. Who determines whose performance?
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Old 21st Apr 2009, 00:48
  #133 (permalink)  
 
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What increases?

For what I can see (I have both the current and proposed eba in front of me right now), you are actually losing money, LOTS OF IT!

Your take home if on the current EBA you are CC2 will be approximately $1350-$1400 per fortnight after tax.

You will have LESS overnights, as they can work you longer days.

You WILL be working 140 hours in 28 days, EVERY MONTH!

You WILL NOT be working 120-125 hours in 31 days as you currently do.

This works out to be approximately 35hours EXTRA PRODUCTIVITY they will get out of you EACH MONTH, not just the 15hours, but up to 3 days as well?

This means you will work close to an extra 9hours per week, possibly with NO OVERTIME.

Look at your roster right now. Throw in another 4 sectors this week. Perhaps the only spot you can fit them in is on your AVL day? You won't get paid for it though!

Say HELLO to Darwin and Perth RETURNS out of Brisbane.

Say goodbye to overnights.

LOOK AT CC level 1, 2, and 3.

You are overstaffed as it is! With the drastic increase in productivity at NO COST, you are going to be flooded with HUNDREDS of EXCESS CABIN CREW.

Very easy to get rid of you! THE COMPANY DOES NOT LOVE YOU!? And look, you're replacements are SO CHEAP! And at that rate, theyre bound not to hang around long enough to become as expensive as you ever were!

GET REAL VIRGIN BLUE!

It's time to kick them where it hurts. Protected industrial action doesn't have to ground the airline, but it sure can embarrass such a self concious egomaniac management into behaving like 'grown ups' and treating their staff in a manner they would like to be treated themselves.

PS, your $2500 is taxed! Work it out, doesnt sound so much when you do the maths.
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Old 21st Apr 2009, 01:52
  #134 (permalink)  
 
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If this EBA is voted up cabin crew and those on wet lease arrangements will/can be rostered up to 12 hours with 10 hours minimum rest on layovers. Remember people how tired we all are after a 9.45 schedule with minimum rest.

This proposal alone is enough to get a NO vote from me.
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Old 21st Apr 2009, 06:59
  #135 (permalink)  
 
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I agree.

The maximum hours in a 28 day roster should be lowered at least to 130 per roster. 140 (if they ever roster us that high) is too much!

In addition overtime should kick in earlier, and what about the allowances not increasing for four years!?!

What's the story with international visas upon arrival needing to be paid for by the crew? This is written in the proposal. Does anyone know what this means? Is it a once yearly payment for example? Which countries?

Those who are members of the F.A.A.A., write in as requested to voice any concerns, and fill in the company's survey on the intranet too. Remember this is NOT the final document we're going to be voting on, things in it can be changed.

Last edited by skyshow; 22nd Apr 2009 at 14:24.
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Old 21st Apr 2009, 08:14
  #136 (permalink)  
 
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where is the FAAA?

Hey can someone please tell me where our FAAA delegates are? How come they haven't been out and about in the crew rooms? I'm not having a go necessarily but the only people i've seen in the crew room are the committee members. I pay my dues to the FAAA, just wondering why they can't be in the crew rooms, they are employees and it is law that the company can't prevent the existence of delegates? Do the delegates get paid by the FAAA to be delegates? Shouldn't they be making themselves more available. Or at least letting us know what this proposed doc. is really going to cost us? I did a survey for them months ago (and previously after the last eba got voted down 2 yrs ago), they already know what i wished for in an EBA...why do i now have to do it again??? Why don't they just send out some facts and figures about the draft doc. Why don't they spell out to us what is and isn't there, and what it means for us long term? We just keep getting emails telling us the same old stuff, that the company then refutes. Come on FAAA give us something now! No more surveys, I am sick of them. Show me the money! Or at the very least, show me i'm not paying my dues for nothing...
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Old 21st Apr 2009, 21:47
  #137 (permalink)  
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It looks like at least 10% increase in productivity with standard pay rises
I never said there was any real pay rises. The pay rises are CPI rises with a 10% increase in productivity.

Look at your roster right now. Throw in another 4 sectors this week. Perhaps the only spot you can fit them in is on your AVL day? You won't get paid for it though!
AVL days are staying though so you could make money once all your friends have been made redundant.

If we vote no the status quo remains for a little longer, if you vote yes then perhaps you will be one of those overstaffed CC who will lose their job.

In a sensible voice go and tell your DM or BM what you do and dont like about the draft. Its not to late for the company to change it again. Dont blow smoke up their a$$ and tell them that you think its great.

The FAAA isnt involved in the process they are merely spectators. Unless VB Management have a quick change of mind which I doubt, they will not be involving the FAAA unless they have to.
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Old 22nd Apr 2009, 00:02
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Thanks Mods

I pay my dues to the FAAA, just wondering why they can't be in the crew rooms
The committee members are rostered to be in the crew rooms, the delegates aren't.

Why don't they spell out to us what is and isn't there, and what it means for us long term?
Mostly what is and isn't there is in black and white in the offer. Most of us have done our sums and our budget on what life would look like working under the offer on the table. Less home time for less increases. 2 cash stimulus bonuses to supposedly see us through the tough times, yet if the company truly wants to save money, how can it afford to pay every cabin crew member $2500 up front instead of paying a % Increase spread out over time? Pay increases are more responsible in an economic crisis because the company would only have to pay a true proportion of the cash bonuses to part timers and those leaving not $2500 x 1500 in one big lump sum on one day.

I did a survey for them months ago (and previously after the last eba got voted down 2 yrs ago), they already know what i wished for in an EBA
when we did those surveys that was when we were putting forward what we wanted negotiated, but the company decided not to negotiate. now theres a document out they want us to all think about and speak up on what should be in and what should be out or what should be changed.
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Old 24th Apr 2009, 09:20
  #139 (permalink)  
 
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I'm all for the FAAA

The thing is, the company is still not negotiating. Until Labour's new Fair Work Rules kick in - hopefully July 1 - and it then becomes a legal option again for the FAAA to be involved, what crew need to know is the impact of the proposed doc. I know it, and you know it Shoppingcart, we've done the figures but what i'm hearing in the crew rooms is that most crew don't. What i'm hearing in the crew rooms is still about what is happening with the FAAA, why aren't they on board? Many crew don't realise the FAAA don't have a choice to be there. What i meant in my last post is more about what the FAAA could be doing in the mean time, to educate those crew that unlike us, don't really understand the process. Don't forget that for many crew this is their first time to vote for something like this. I have encouraged many new crew to join the FAAA but, now i would like to see some action - even if it just emailing members with a point by point break down of the doc. Not for me, but for those that are new to this.
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Old 26th Apr 2009, 09:54
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Why make them look bad

You are really a little bit bitter ,arn't you. Everybody has a job to do, including our managers. We wanted them to cut their pay and they have. RT told us his pay has been reduced by over $70k!!!. as he earns the least of the seniot team, the others must have taken a bigger cut. Give them some credit for doing what they do!!!! Life is to short to keep looking for what is wrong. I am looking at the positives and there are many. I will vote yes......I hope some of you grump ones think more clearly about this as well. Klarity
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