In The Pink

I mean the company.

I have never stated its going down the tubes, I have stated it is under performing big time under the current management in relation to our biggest competitor and will continue to do so until there are changes at the top.

If I thought there was no point in striking I wouldn't be wasting my time posting my reasons on here.

Your take it or leave attitude mirrors the company's, which is why things have progressed to the stage we're at now.

JB1888

Dear Colleague,


Industrial Action Ballot


You should now have received your ballot papers. If not you must contact your Workplace Reps or call Dave Kelly at the Unite Slough Office Tel. No. 01753 578439 immediately.


This aside, I thought I should clarify some of the points Virgin Atlantic management have raised on I-Fly in relation to the balloting process. I know that the majority of Unite members are fully aware of the importance of returning a "Yes" vote in the current Industrial Action Ballot. However, the Company has been attempting to destabilise this important process by offering Cabin Crew money to "break the strike". In doing so it is undermining the good work Unite has carried out on behalf of our members since we achieved Trade Union recognition at Virgin Atlantic some 6 years ago.


Our members have continually demonstrated their determination throughout this dispute, which has been absolutely crucial in moving the Company from its original position back in April of expecting Cabin Crew to accept a 2% increase.


You have given Unite a clear mandate to pursue further improvements to those now being offered. We are absolutely committed to this principle, and as such, your continued support is paramount.


I also want to touch on the inferences that individuals may leave themselves open to disciplinary action as a result of participating in "official" strike action. Let me therefore be clear on this. If Unite and our members have done everything that we are required to do under the current legislation, which I believe we have, then all our members have protected rights. Virgin Atlantic is well aware of this fact.


Finally, I know you have been urged on I-Fly to call your Union. This may have been another attempt to undermine our efforts, but I can tell you that both Dave Kelly and I have been happy to speak with any of our members from the outset of the negotiations. Our members do not need prompted to do this.


In the meantime, I will update you in due course on any further developments, and remind you to return your ballot paper by 12 noon on Thursday 20th December 2007.


Yours sincerely,

Brian Boyd
National Officer

Digitalis

ITP, I agree that there need to be changes at the top of the Company, but I can't link your prospective action to that. It seems to me you're saying that the Company should be more profitable, and therefore you should be paid more. That just doesn't work (if I have interpreted you correctly).

I'm not mirroring the Company's attitude or statements; go back through what I have said on this thread. I am as critical of the Company's management as you are, but I take a different view from yours on the merits of strike action.

scoobydooo

Quote:

...However, the Company has been attempting to destabilise this important process by offering Cabin Crew money to "break the strike".

Blimey !! I had heard this rumour but didn't want to post it due to liable. Now that the union know about it, it's out. I had heard that certain individuals in certain positions had been offered financial incentives for a result in the companies best interest.... the plot thickens !

Litebulbs

But how can they pay anyone to break the strike as there is no more money in the pot?!

Is this the level of management that the crew are dealing with? Bribes? Is that good management? Are financial rewards for breaking industrial action, if the ballot comes back as a yes to strike, part of cabin crew terms and conditions? Virgin cabin crew is a unionised department. Any changes to pay terms and conditions should be negotiated as per the recognition agreement. Are management bringing this idea to the attention of Unite?

vs69

With respect to management judgement, I'm still waiting for the day where someone turns up at a business briefing and stands up to ask what the hell they are playing at and why they cant come up with a healthy profit,it's all very well us being asked to work harder,keep an eye on wastage etc but when certain departments seemingly get free reign with their budgets it all seems a bit much to me.There is no doubt the base is a great training centre and was a long time coming but the frills round the edges are just not needed,the room full of trees for gods sake,expensive comfy chairs,I could go on...While I am of the opinion that there may well be no extra money in the pot for any revised cabin crew pay deals,it would certainly be more convincing if, shall we say extravagant spending habits from certain creative departments was capped.And I realise the woes of the airline cannot just be pointed at a few trees and comfy chairs before anyone jumps down my neck,just wanted a rant as everytime I walk in that place I wonder what it all cost...

stansdead

vs69

hello gorgeous.......

vs69

Dont even get me started mate!But how can they convince the workforce that they are not making enough money when they blow ££££££'s on decadent indulgent crap like that?

Kasual Observer

I am flabbergasted at the level of comment coming from some of you on this thread. It is like watching a bunch of excited schoolchildren talking about going on strike against their teachers. Once again, the naivety and lack of awareness of the consequences show up.

You have twice gone against Brian Boyd's recommendation to accept the offer he had negotiated on your behalf with the company. You obviously considered his judgement to be wrong then. Now he has written to you and suddenly his word is gospel. If I didn't know what was going on here I'd think I was watching a kids pantomime.

To read comments about the money spent on The Base and other investments made by the company being used as argument to get even more than is being offered at the moment only goes to show the rest of us that the most vociferous on here who are for industrial action, have very little knowledge of how the real world and business operate. Without being able to comprehend that decisions about investment on large projects like The Base were made long before the end result that you now see, just goes to show that you have little or no perception of what the company can actually afford. I won't go into Business Economics 101 as it is apparent that it is well above your level of comprehension.

That your union has not been able to give you the proper advice and the letter published above only goes to prove that you have a leadership with Quixotic abilities that is going to set you all back many, many years in terms of what you deserve and in industrial relations with the company.

I am not saying that the company management team have performed with any sense of achievement. The situation should never have got to this stage in the first place. However, both the company management team and your union negotiators have to share the blame. References to how well the upper management of the airline would fare if the company had to satisfy shareholders is irrelevant to the current situation.

Sadly, it is the loudest militants who appear to be making most of the running. I just hope that the majority of the cabin crew use their votes. From a straw poll taken over the last few trips I have operated, I sense that the majority are apathetic The main reason for that apathy appears to come from the lack of understanding of what is actually on offer and the consequences of rejection. That apathy has allowed a significant minority to cause a ballot for industrial action. Only around 30% of the cabin crew workforce actually voted positively to reject the current pay offer. The other 70% and those not in the union either expressed no opinion or were in agreement with the offer.

That apathy has now led us to the current ballot and unless all those apathetic cabin crew use their votes to let the company know one way or another, the vociferous militants will force industrial action and the consequences are not going to be pleasant. I honestly believe that the majority of cabin crew would rather accept the current offer and regroup in order to get their collective act together. They would rather fight a battle they are sure they can win rather than the current one that is looming and smells of defeat before we have even arrived there.

The shock and awe that some posters are making of the company's attempt to "destabilise" the process is breathtaking in its gullibility. As though your union is not and will not resort to similar tactics? Nah, of course not.

It is time to grow up and realise that you do not have the necessary numbers to support industrial action. Even if I am wrong and you do get your majority, you do not have a leadership with the necessary skills and intuition to take on the company. The management team responsible may not have anything to be proud of but they are still many levels ahead of your own union leadership and on that basis alone, you will be hard pressed to make any gains for yourselves by striking.

As I have said previously, good luck because you are certainly going to need it.

eggie1

some of u ppl r so lame, do u really think virgin would ever stand by u! all they care about is ££££! so be the bigger person and vote yes to strike at the end of the day its a job not a relationship as some of u virgin lovers seem to think! we will never get anything unless we stick together coz at the moment were just a joke! oh and another thing no one will be losing there job and a strike won`t ruin virgin because it will never get that far!

rock on scoobydo! at least someone has some sense!

eggie1

vs69

KO: I am not crew and if you re -read my post I stated that the base was a long time coming and am of the feeling that money spent on training is a good thing,its the frivolous spending that I dont understand and I am aware the place was on the cards a long time ago.Also I am against industrial action but the point I am trying to make is if the management expect us to toe the company line with respect to cost cutting etc then maybe they should lead by example and dont even start me on VK.....Coming from the department which is the 'necessary evil' maybe I am being too practical here and should stick to changing wheels and pouring oil in engines??

scoobydooo

Here we go again, seems I am back in a discussion I do not wish to be.


KO why do you imply that anyone interested in taking part in industrial action is childish, needs to grow up or is militant ? Many of us are level headed individuals capable of making our own informed decisions - yet you are feeling the need to tone your posts in a derogatory manner to anyone who is not prepared to accept the offer. (i.e. towards the player not the game as the mpderator might say).


I think the letter above from Mr Boyd is simply a response to those memo to crew that the company have issued on i-fly, I know I for one forward everything the company states about the strike straight to the union officials and ask for comment.


Their letter is simply a response, which also happens to mention that virgin have been offering cash incentives to individuals not to strike, you dont mention anything about that in your post other than to believe it we are gullible, rather than the levels the company have stooped to. How would you feel if they did that when you/Balpa were/are in negotiations ? It removes or at least lowers any credibility within dont you think ? I imagine you would be disgusted.

I wont comment on expenditure, been done to death.

Quote:

The shock and awe that some posters are making of the company's attempt to "destabilise" the process is breathtaking in its gullibility. As though your union is not and will not resort to similar tactics? Nah, of course not.

Given the latest revelation regarding incentives shows that the company is trying to tilt the apple cart it has probably only served to push a couple of people off the fence who didn't know which way to go. The letter above is genuine and is on the myamicus site for all members of the union to see, making such accusations without hard facts would be libellous so I think we can both agree they are not making it up.

edit to add: Furthermore I do not believe the union would resort to such tactics as you imply, as they could be seen to be influencing the outcome and encouraging industrial action which under ligislation they are not allowed to do, they have simply highlighted that the company has tried to do it i.e. the company has probably just shot itself in the foot.

Lets just hope everyone votes.

scoobydooo

oh I forgot to say...regarding offering cash to individuals - and this is the company telling us last month they have learnt from these negotiations and will respect us and treat us differently next time round so we should accept this offer and will be treated better next time

I guess this revelation blows that out the water then !

I am truly totally and utterly flabbergasted, as I say I had heard it but put it down to Galley FM. I am still genuinely shocked.

Jcdcon

I am a tad confused regarding the above few posts.

The company has offered me no money to "break the strike".

I think what The Union are implying is that the Co have repeatedly said "Don't strike and we will give you 4.8%".

In my opinion it is the Union who appears to be employing devious tactics by producing the insinuation that the Co are going around crew offering cash to say "No" to strike. It just is not happening.

Kasual Observer

I'm obviously not making myself clear so I'll make one final attempt to try and explain that I am not against you voting to strike. What I am saying is that if you do vote to strike, now, you are in effect heading for a disaster.

I understand all the hype about "why wait", "there's more money in the pot", "look at the wastage" etc. etc. The simple point is that you are weak as a union and weak with only limited support. By heading for a clash whilst weak you will do more damage than if you do so from a position of strength.

As pointed out by Jcdcon, your interpretation of the letter from Boyd and everyone elses shows how you are jumping to "uninformed" decisions. You state that "Many of us are level headed individuals capable of making our own informed decisions" yet just in that one post about what you think Boyd meant you have shot yourself in the foot.

Do you really think it is going to affect me whether you go on strike or not? The impact on me and my colleagues will be minimal, especially if you want to compare what we the pilots have taken over 6 years to achieve and what you are trying to do in one fell swoop. I honestly believe that if you do vote to strike you will only be harming yourselves in the long run. I believe that the company will manage to break the strike, at a cost, but break the strike they will because you are weak, unorganised and have a leadership that appears to have very little idea of how to handle the situation.

As I said, good luck and hopefully the vote will reflect the true majority of your colleagues desires. Unless you achieve at least 50% of the total cabin crew workforce voting for action then you will have very little chance of making any difference and most likely will set yourselves back many years.

I'm sorry if you don't like the perspective I am putting on it and you obviously don't take much heed of it. Fair enough. At least be honest with yourselves and admit that you have only limited support for this proposed action. I have no doubt that if you had the kind of support that we the pilots had when we negotiated our big increase then you would find that I and many others would be advising you to go for it.

Good luck again, because you are going to need every tiny bit of it you can get.

scoobydooo

You have your interpretation of this, I have another which is supported by other information received. Once again we shall agree to disagree.

I very much expect a shock result.

Bon weekend

bermudatriangle

i have every sympathy with the VS cabin crew....i talked to a crew member tonight who operated in from the far east and was asked by crewing to operate to the states sunday morning ! that results in just 1 day off...saturday.that cannot be right and if crewing expect such quick turnarounds,with no financial incentive,it's no wonder a strike is looming !

In The Pink

Ko

Your posts are laden with military simile, condescension and plain ignorance as to why the airline cannot afford a reasonable offer.

Your reference as to "how well the upper management of the airline would fare if the company had to satisfy shareholders is irrelevant to the current situation." is laughable.

Their under performance is THE very reason (not an irrelevance) why the airline cannot afford an unconditional RPI increase.

That rarefied cockpit air has clearly removed you from all reality.

TightSlot

Once again - play the ball, not the player: Do not personalize the argument. I know that I'm nagging about this, but trust me, this situation is likely to become more strained than it is now, before it gets better.

Kasual Observer has posted politely and intelligently - not working for VS I have no idea whether he/she is accurate or not. What I do know is that a rather more considered response is required than simply throwing verbal rocks.

Rumour Monger

Long time viewer, first time poster, eventually got sucked in. Been enjoying this debate and thought I’d add to it by posting Lyell’s response to Brian Boyd from iFly.


Dear Brian,

I was surprised and dismayed to read today’s letter you have sent to our Cabin Crew. As you are well aware we jointly structured and recommended the last two pay offers based on your guidance and input. The final pay offer (4.8% in year 1 and RPI in Year 2) was constructed after we shared with you the detailed Cabin Crew feedback we had gathered. You were also briefed in detail on the financial performance of our business.

To our surprise you came into the final negotiations expecting to make small changes to the conditions in the offer. It was Virgin Atlantic who made the decision to remove all conditions and structure the current offer as a result of the listening exercise we conducted with our Cabin Crew.

In your letter you make some serious allegations, which I need to address:

· You implied that we have threatened disciplinary action for those who may strike. This is not true and would be unlawful.

· You also implied that Virgin Atlantic would offer financial incentives to Crew to break the strike. Our priority if you disrupt and threaten our business is to our customers and the security of all our employees.

When we shook hands on the final offer, we believed, based on your words we had struck the best pay increase in the industry for Cabin Crew this year.

You understand the difficult and challenging trading conditions in which we are operating, so you know there can be no improvement to the offer, to imply in your communication that the crew would be better off after taking strike action is not in the best interest of my Crew.

Brian, many of our crew are deeply worried about the consequences of this course of action, and rightly so, and communications which inflame the situation do not help.

Lyell Strambi
Chief Operating Officer