stansdead

striker

Where, if it is not "galleyFM" did the rumour/fact of a bigger, better paydeal come from then?

I am not trying to be confrontational, but all evidence points to the contrary.

3 Senior managers have all reiterated the complete opposite, to all of us, in the last week.

As far as our (pilot) pay talks go, to the best of my knowledge, they have not yet begun. Additionally, I believe that we as a Pilot body are not interested in pay alone. Like I said to scoobydoo a day or two ago, our pay and your pay are NOT linked.

I respect your right to express your dissatisfaction in the vote, but I am firmly in the belief that this offer is your best one for this battle.

You seem to be combative, keen and "on the ball". Why don't you get stuck in as a cabin crew union rep. You may be able to legitimately make the difference that you so keenly wish for.

Anyhow, back to the point in hand. Was it a reliable source? Would you share it publicly?

Digitalis

Striker, unless you can attribute your statement to an identifiable individual, and show us all where such a statement may be read by all Virgin CC, your statement is no more nor less than a rumour - hearsay, if you will - and is of no use to people trying to make their minds up what to do in a difficult situation. It is just the same as someon in the galley saying, "Well, I heard from a mate in the office that there's a better offer out there...".

I'm sorry, but unless you quote your source, your statement has no value.

Further, as has already been pointed out, the pilots have spent 6 years getting to where they are now, and the process is not yet done; indeed, it may never be. They will indeed wait 18 months, or more, if necessary. Patient, well-informed negotiating, in full consultation with the 'coal-face', has achieved a great deal, and will achieve more yet. I very much hope that the next iteration of the CC negotiating team learns that lesson.

exvicar

Who is 'the horses mouth'? Are you seriously telling me someone in the management has told you that there is a better deal on the table but to get it you have to vote to strike? Somehow I doubt it. If there was a better deal on the table they would offer it during the negotiations and avoid the hassle of the ballot and all of the negative publicity attached to the strike. Unfortunately, unless it is a comprehensive no vote and there are enough you actually on strike to affect the operation, the company will simply run the schedule around you. Many in the union will then say 'what did the union do for us? It costs us money each month and they didn't perform'. They will then resign their membership and you will lose your bargaining power for the future. You have done well to get your membership up and strength in part comes from unity. However, unfortunately, so few of you could actually be bothered to return the ballot in your pay negotiations in the first place and, at the moment, united you are not. Take the deal, organise yourselves for the next round in 18 months, educate those with the power to vote to do so and come back even stronger next time. Many in the flight deck community are on your side. I, for one, would hate to see your membership fall to bits just as you are beginning to get organised.

Litebulbs

Digitalis

"Patient, well-informed negotiating, in full consultation with the 'coal-face', has achieved a great deal, and will achieve more yet"

How can you achieve more, when their is just no more money in the pot? Hopefully the pilot community will realise this and not make a claim next year, for the good of Virgin and all the staff.

fruitbat

When are people going to stop believing this 'no more money in the pot' argument?! It's not a public company, they can tell you they only make £20 million profit, but the true figure could be 10 times that. Branson has one of the most complicated Offshore company accounts of any individual on Earth.

scoobydooo

Evening all,


Just a quick one...


KO Appreciate the reply however I do feel that you have gone off a little on a tangent regarding my example of info on cc.com. I was merely repeating the latest rumour, the thread over there goes on to further talk about if it is demonstrated to the tax man that crew are bringing allowances home (as I and many do to supplement our poor basic).

The knock on of that could then be "ah, so the crew don't need all the allowances we provide them for subsidence down route, as proved by company allowance tax records 08/09 (on diners cards if it goes ahead) so we can justify cutting allowances". This is an extreme example (but who knows these days companies are going to extrodinary lenghts to cust costs, crew rest areas out , oh no back in again etc etc) , and my post was made to suggest the Virgin Mary should not discount everything that is posted on that site in its entirety.

Often I read changes on there before they hit i-fly. I am fully aware of HMC&E rules regarding bringing monies into the UK or declaring monies earned and vrought into the UK or even just interest earnt from overseas holdings if one is a UK tax resident.

Again this is one reason why our Allowances require a radical overhaul to bring us inline with other carriers, 1 because it will happen anyway and 2 better if we instigate the change through the unions rather than the company instigating them in on a "on the back foot" fashion due to demands from HMR&E.


I appreciate all comments however after taking all sources on information available and my personal reasons I have now mailed my response back (judge me if you like) but as has been mentioned somewhere back in the past 88 posts I have my reasons and goals and they have not been achieved, also I believe the format of further cabin crew negotiations from next time round will be different due to the mess this time and the merger of the unions.

Regarding posting replies to posts pro industrial action, as VS-LHR mentioned last night "a balanced argument/debate" is required, many posts here are against Industrial action so I am trying to keep it balanced. Many posters pro action have stopped posting following the message from the roo a few weeks back about using external sites to discuss the issues, they have stopped posting for fear of getting in trouble following pro action postings as many people can be identified easily through historical postings on here and cc.com (Again I have received numerous pm's regarding this).


We must also accept again that sites like this can be used as propaganda tools for both sides (conspiracy theorist in me again).


Anyway last post on the subject from me now till result is known as I feel we are going round and round in circles now. My vote is cast and whatever the outcome I will go with the majority, that is what freedom and democracy is all about.

As for weather and picket lines, as someone said many posts ago, If Carlsberg did picket Lines - Virgins one would "Probably the best looking picket line in the world".


Safe festive seasonal flying everyone.

p.s. - Hey, it didn't turn out to be a quick one liner as expected (why does that always happen on prune ?)

Litebulbs

Twas joking about the magic empty pot of money.

Digitalis

Litebulbs the pilots' negotiations will be about far more than simply money. It's unlikely they will be looking for anything significantly above RPI, but there are several lifestyle issues that will be addressed.

Litebulbs and Fruitbat. Virgin Atlantic made £6m profit in the last financial year, at a time when BA was making record profits, as were Qantas, Singapore, KLM/Air France and several other longhaul airlines. When Virgin Atlantic made 11% Return on Sales (RoS), the airline was first to shout it from the rooftops. There is absolutely no evidence that profit from this company is being squirrelled off to other Virgin enterprises other than the legitimate, if unfortunate, example of Virgin Nigeria. You may believe the accounts of this company are secret, and unavailable to the public or the regulators. You are quite wrong. However, you do have to pay to see the accounts - something I very much hope your Union has done.

If they have, they will be well aware that the losses at Virgin Nigeria have hurt this company's profitability very hard, and that that is the primary reason for VS's poor results. The secondary, and entirely legitamate and credible, reason is that the company has invested a great deal in expansion over the last few years, and that investment is yet to yield a positive return. I'm sure we all very much hope it will yield that return in the near future, but the economic signs for the industry generally are not good, so it may well take longer than was anticipated.

Once again, suggestions that there is money secreted away, or that VS is a lot more profitable than the results suggest (it would be without VK!), are fantasy and not borne out by any verifiable information. In other words, more rumour. You can't spend rumours.

Of course, if you have documented evidence of Virgin's secret profits, kindly share it with the rest of us - then we can all go after our share of it!

Qstar

Good Luck VS Cabin Crew..... Pay for flight attendants in this country is appalling. Even at Qantas UK many crew all say the same thing, living in London and costs at the end of the month, nothing left. Look at BA and what happened with their strike action, how quickly they listen. This is a profession that needs not go back to the hostess era!! CONDITIONS & PAY!!!!! GOOD LUCK!!

Litebulbs

Digitalis

So there have been some terrible business decisions then? Clear out the accountable managers. They are the people who have put Virgin in this position. The UK market needs a Virgin, it is a great product and is well established. Blue Chip, Chalk Stripe Neo Cons fly BA. Pop Stars and pretty people fly Virgin. There is a massive market for both types of passengers.

If you want to stop this action without increasing the offer, then the board and senior management must go. You want to get the crew back onside, then get rid of the very people who have put Virgin in the position that they pay the majority of there employees a rate at the lower end of the UK airline salary scale and still turn in a terrible result.

The comments about realising that Virgin just cant afford it would have more credibility if you got rid of the very people that caused it!

Digitalis

Sacking certain managers - much as I'd like to - doesn't put money in the bank now, when you need it. Going on strike won't generate money that isn't there. You have to deal with things as they are, not how you'd like them to be. Part of the process of getting what you want is recognising the realities around you and working within the limitations that exist. You can't turn a poor economic situation into a good one by claiming that there's money hidden away somewhere; show us that money and we can all lay a claim to a share of it. If you (or the Union) can't show it to us, we have to work on the assumption that it's not there, as all the economic data leads rational observers to believe.

I understand your feelings, but you can't fix the problems by telling people there's money lying around when there plainly isn't. Take what's on offer, then spend the time before the next pay negotiations (which will start in about a year's time) obtain ing the data to inform your standpoint, instead of relying on rumour and conjecture. Knowledge is power, and you and your Union plainly don't have it.

Litebulbs

Through previous good times and bad, crew pay has remained low. My point is if you want to get crew back on side, something, if not pay, has to happen. Make the people who are accountable, accountable.

It will be vastly more damaging for VS crew as a union, to capitulate now. Negotiation is about compromise. It all rests on the 20th Dec on what action both sides will take. If a strike is the outcome, negotiations will continue and probably lead to 4.8% with reduced strings.

We wait and see.

In The Pink

Digitalis

"You have to deal with things as they are"

Its because this airline is so poorly managed that we are in the financial situation that we are. Blaming already poorly paid CC for threatening the future of the airline is just another symptom of a management that blames fuel prices, open skies, the environment, declining yields etc.. every excuse in the book yet refuses to look at itself.

All factors that every other airline has to face daily, factors which our main competitor are dealing with admirably whilst at the same time increasing frequencies, expanding its fleet and putting 350 million into a new terminal

It hasn't been bad for airlines the last few years and Virgin are still under performing. I cant wait another 18 months, the management have had long enough to sort this out and I worry how its going to be in 18 months time given we are now moving into what looks like a period of economic regression (if not recession).

All crew want is an RPI increase to reflect how much more life costs each year. Surely that's not too much for a billion dollar organisation!!??

This is an interesting article from The Times on our CEO, interesting reading..

"ttp://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/movers_and_shakers/article2681627.ece

"But we're Virgin", heads up ar*e's is the only management I see these days.
.

stansdead

In the Pink

Quote : "All crew want is an RPI increase to reflect how much more life costs each year. Surely that's not too much for a billion dollar organisation!!??"

I am not sure, but I thought that 4.8% was way,way above the current RPI.

And you have been offered RPI increase in April 2008 as well.

Surely, by this measure, the deal looks OK?

Let me know if my maths is wrong, or if you have just shot yourself in the foot inadvertently.

scoobydooo

Just a quickie regarding pots of money we have or haven't got. No one knows, the story so far....


Employer - We have no more money to offer, final offer
Employees Union - There is more money to be had, vote rejected.
Employer - Here is our next offer this one is final as we really have no more money.
Employees Union - Sorry not good enough, vote rejected.
Employer - okay here is another offer, very last one, as we really really have no more money.
Employees Union - Vote rejected, Industrial Ballot


It is clear to see why some people may not believe the company when they say they have no more to offer. If I was management I would say that too if I didn't want to pay anymore. The simple truth is none of us REALLY know, however if one was to look at the story so far one might not believe the company saying there is no more (cry wolf )

I'm not advocating anything just, the above is as simple as it gets when we come to the story so far and pots of money that may or may not exist.


Scooby (not really posting, your'e just imagining it)

back2front

An RPI increase is all very well (and one I would accept) if our salary already reflected that of our collegues at other airlines.

4.8% of very little = a very small increase so until we achieve a salary somewhere closer to other airline crew I will be voting NO to pay deals and YES to strike action.

Digitalis

ITP, I can't argue that some of our management are incompetent; there you are absolutely correct! Nevertheless, that doesn't alter the fact that a strike - should a vote go that way - is extremely unlikely to significantly improve the offer available to you, and is highly likely to damage the airline at a time when its finances just aren't that good.

As I've implied in posts above, patience is fundamental in securing a good result for your colleagues. Unite haven't had much time (and have squandered much of what time they've had) to build a plan to improve your pay and conditions, and a consensus for implementing it. Between the Company and the Union, the negotiations thus far have been pretty inept. Nevertheless, as Stan says, the deal you have on the table involves an uplift well above RPI right now (with backpay), and a further uplift of RPI for 2008. Yes, there are some strings attached, but negotiations always have to involve some compromises.

You now have the opportunity to take what's been offered, and then take stock and focus your efforts for the next round - which will begin fairly shortly, as this one's gone on so long. Or you can reject it for the uncertainty of a strike, with whatever effects that may have on your employment prospects. I have to say I don't feel those effects will be positive!

scoobydooo

Furthermore there must be something in the air at the Unite Office this December, I wasnt aware that the BAA strike ballot also closes on December 20th... I wonder if there is a cunning plan Baldrick.

http://business.timesonline.co.uk/to...cle2933898.ece
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2...&feed=business

In The Pink

Stan

UK RPI for this year so far is 4.3% so the company's offer for this year is 11.6% above RPI. Whether that's way,way,way above RPI is for the individual to decide.

The fact is when I take into account the sacrifices in terms and conditions being asked to achieve this offer, extra months standby, loss of guaranteed weekends off on standby, insufficient trip pay for seniors etc,etc,etc, this for me personally takes the increase below RPI.

If I didn't make it clear earlier an unconditional RPI increase is what I need.

Crew have to make that individual decision for themselves and we'll know what that decision is shortly.

Will you accept an extra months standby next year for an RPI increase?

Digitalis, you post makes perfect sense if I thought the people at the helm had the talent to steer us into safer waters, however I don't believe that to be the case. I have no faith in them at all, so I'll be voting YES.

Digitalis

Scooby, the BAA strike has been known about for sometime. I would be surprised if your Union did not take it into account.

I'm not sure I understand you here. Do you mean the Company or the Union? If you mean the Company, you are presumably implying that you have doubts about the survivability of the Company at all - in which case, why not jump ship and sign up with someone else? After all, there's no point striking for a payrise from an airline that's going down the tubes!