Should EASA be allowed to monopolise licencing in Europe?
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: In the boot of my car!
Posts: 5,982
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Of Course EASA has a right to control its airspace and the aircraft and pilots in it but that is NOT the argument.
If N reg was a fairly new practice which EASA had discovered and was trying to plug fair dues.
In certainly UK law established legal practice becomes protected in law itself.
If you pinch a piece of field and extend your garden into it after a period of time as a garden it becomes a garden in law not a field and so on.
N Reg has without any doubt become established practice in Europe being domiciled here for longer than the EU has been in existence.
Over all those many many years people have found work around N reg in Europe others have purchased aircraft and licences and all within perfect law and rights.
EASA have moral obligations to those people and their livelihoods as European Citizens as well as to insure that anything EASA now does makes as little damage to those people in cost of money, Time, inconvenience and most certainly NOT at the cost of someones job.
As far as EU law goes if EASA bring in any regulations which will remove my rights for work they are breaking existing protection laws.
Its no good saying take six months off my work would no longer exist.
Maybe I am not a good home studier and need to be in a full time study course.
Why should such a conversion cost me money???
If I am a pilot with only a few years to retirement how will I claw those costs back in the time I have left compared to a young pilot?
That lot is just a taste and EASA know they have problems so lets see what happens
Pace
If N reg was a fairly new practice which EASA had discovered and was trying to plug fair dues.
In certainly UK law established legal practice becomes protected in law itself.
If you pinch a piece of field and extend your garden into it after a period of time as a garden it becomes a garden in law not a field and so on.
N Reg has without any doubt become established practice in Europe being domiciled here for longer than the EU has been in existence.
Over all those many many years people have found work around N reg in Europe others have purchased aircraft and licences and all within perfect law and rights.
EASA have moral obligations to those people and their livelihoods as European Citizens as well as to insure that anything EASA now does makes as little damage to those people in cost of money, Time, inconvenience and most certainly NOT at the cost of someones job.
As far as EU law goes if EASA bring in any regulations which will remove my rights for work they are breaking existing protection laws.
Its no good saying take six months off my work would no longer exist.
Maybe I am not a good home studier and need to be in a full time study course.
Why should such a conversion cost me money???
If I am a pilot with only a few years to retirement how will I claw those costs back in the time I have left compared to a young pilot?
That lot is just a taste and EASA know they have problems so lets see what happens
Pace
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 10,815
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yes but that is the fundemental reason why they have brought the changes in.
And why it doesn't matter what the arguments etc are brought forward about safety etc they won't stop until they do return control to the local NAA for locally based aircraft and pilots.
And now that there system and philosophy have been publically slagged off and personal insults dealt out for the people involved, they will be even more determind to finally stop the practise or at least make it very difficult and more expensive than just going local anyway.
Apart from anything else they won't want a rerun of the last 2 years.
So the cogs are turning and the political games are being played to eventually get things into a corner.
They really don't care about jobs going etc and being taken to court, all they have to do is string it out for a few years. Even if they do loose the tax payers stump up the dosh and they have got what they wanted anyway.
PAce there argument will be is they haven't removed your ability to work on N reg aircraft. You can still work anywhere in the world.
The fact is that if you are successfull blocking this it will mean that they will loose control over virtually all private aircraft in the EU. All that will be left will be the public transport and AOC machines.
No private pilots because you can start commercial training using an ICAO ppl.
There have been loads of regulation changes in the UK which have meant people have had to requalify and or get additional licenses.
The ones the spring to mind are the gas regulations which meant the all the plumbers that had been working for years had to get Corgi qualified . The Sparkys went through the same thing a few years ago just so they could fit a plug in a kitchen or other wet area. Finacial advisors also went through the same process.
Its hardly unique that long standing industry's have been turned on there heads and everyone had to gain further qualifications before being allowed to do what they had been doing for years in the UK.
And why it doesn't matter what the arguments etc are brought forward about safety etc they won't stop until they do return control to the local NAA for locally based aircraft and pilots.
And now that there system and philosophy have been publically slagged off and personal insults dealt out for the people involved, they will be even more determind to finally stop the practise or at least make it very difficult and more expensive than just going local anyway.
Apart from anything else they won't want a rerun of the last 2 years.
So the cogs are turning and the political games are being played to eventually get things into a corner.
They really don't care about jobs going etc and being taken to court, all they have to do is string it out for a few years. Even if they do loose the tax payers stump up the dosh and they have got what they wanted anyway.
PAce there argument will be is they haven't removed your ability to work on N reg aircraft. You can still work anywhere in the world.
The fact is that if you are successfull blocking this it will mean that they will loose control over virtually all private aircraft in the EU. All that will be left will be the public transport and AOC machines.
No private pilots because you can start commercial training using an ICAO ppl.
There have been loads of regulation changes in the UK which have meant people have had to requalify and or get additional licenses.
The ones the spring to mind are the gas regulations which meant the all the plumbers that had been working for years had to get Corgi qualified . The Sparkys went through the same thing a few years ago just so they could fit a plug in a kitchen or other wet area. Finacial advisors also went through the same process.
Its hardly unique that long standing industry's have been turned on there heads and everyone had to gain further qualifications before being allowed to do what they had been doing for years in the UK.
Last edited by mad_jock; 22nd Apr 2012 at 09:59.
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Who cares? ;-)
Age: 74
Posts: 676
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
NuName
why? all they have to do is follow the regulations being required for the country they are working in. If that means doing some exams, then that's the way it is!
Oh, and I read here because I find the discussion quite entertaining actually...
Pace
were you able to fly N regs in Eastern Europe before the iron curtain fell? surely not. Now they are "westernised" and they have new regulations, often based on what other countries already had in affect. I'm sure you can still not operate pure N reg aircraft commercially, or perhaps even privately, in Russia or many other countries. Europe has been very lenient so far!
And I remember the FAA, back in the 1980's and 90's trying to "force" N-reg owners to have the aircraft spend maximum 6 months outside of the USA! The FAA wanted that, not the European's. Who knows, perhaps it hit the books yet has been overlooked all these years.
I really feel for the guy's who could loose their livelihood due to the new reg's.
Oh, and I read here because I find the discussion quite entertaining actually...
Pace
N Reg has without any doubt become established practice in Europe being domiciled here for longer than the EU has been in existence.
Over all those many many years people have found work around N reg in Europe others have purchased aircraft and licences and all within perfect law and rights.
Over all those many many years people have found work around N reg in Europe others have purchased aircraft and licences and all within perfect law and rights.
And I remember the FAA, back in the 1980's and 90's trying to "force" N-reg owners to have the aircraft spend maximum 6 months outside of the USA! The FAA wanted that, not the European's. Who knows, perhaps it hit the books yet has been overlooked all these years.
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 10,815
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I think they can westwind. Keep a N reg in Russia etc. Even if it was illegal the type of persons that own said hardware over there isn't looked at to often.
Its the same in the Middle East as well. Shiek ma bob can keep a N reg for as long as he likes. Mear mortals would have to go local after 6 months.
Not that its really an issue because the whole reason for having these machines down there is to escape the bloody place so they tend to move around alot.
Its the same in the Middle East as well. Shiek ma bob can keep a N reg for as long as he likes. Mear mortals would have to go local after 6 months.
Not that its really an issue because the whole reason for having these machines down there is to escape the bloody place so they tend to move around alot.
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: I can see it from here.
Posts: 678
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Whilst making the argument for EASA I hope you all remember that any foreign licence holder flying a foreign registered aircraft in any airspace, including that of EASA land, is required to obey the regulations of the: country of registration, country of licence issue and the airspace the aircraft is being flown in and apply the most restrictive. Therefore, full control is available to all national airspace in all countries of the world. This has always been the case and always will be. Any incidents or violations have always been rigorously followed up with appropriate action.
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 10,815
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Any incidents or violations have always been rigorously followed up with appropriate action.
All the local authority can do is send a letter to the other authority if they don't reply they can only hope they can pick the pilot up on another visit.
The idea that the US, China, Russia and a raft of other countrys would deport anyone to the EU to face action about infringments is quite frankly in the realms of cloud cockoo land. Try and find a case when its happened.
We arn't actually making the argument for EASA we are making the argument that local aircraft and local pilots are under the oversight of the Local NAA. Most I would suspect would agree that EASA is a monumental screw up and isn't going to do the EU aviation industry any good at all. In fact the conclusion of getting the N reg issue sort once and for all might actually be the thing that keeping it together. Most countrys in the EU have been trying to stop it for years and they have been the nearest to succeeding yet.
Doesn't change the fact though that I agree with the policy of local aircraft and local pilots are under the oversight of the Local NAA. That aircraft resident in a country and flown by the resident pilots should have to jump through the same hoops as everyone else.
None of the loophole of we have payed a bloke in Delware to own the aircraft in trust on our behalf and you can stick your rules up your arse cause we don't like them.
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: I can see it from here.
Posts: 678
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
mad_jock, you have my attention now, I obviously need educating and you would seem to be the best guy to do it.
Can you explain to me just what the "Delaware loophole" is, and what advantages can be had, maybe I'm missing out on something. Especially as I fly the "M".
I don't know what experiences you quote from but I have witnessed a FAA licenced pilot have his ticket suspended for a year for a violation incurred in the Middle East. To find a pilot of a particular flight is the easiest thing in the world, were it not, the international freedoms we enjoy would simply not exist. Deportation is a bit extreme, what kind of violation did you have in mind for this? Licence suspension or revoked would seem to work well enough in most cases.
Aviation by its very nature is an international activity, there will always be foreign aircraft with foreign pilots around, to make some arbitrary reg's about what constitutes being based or resident in Europe is a load of baloney and everyone knows it. Freedom means less regulation not more.
Can you explain to me just what the "Delaware loophole" is, and what advantages can be had, maybe I'm missing out on something. Especially as I fly the "M".
I don't know what experiences you quote from but I have witnessed a FAA licenced pilot have his ticket suspended for a year for a violation incurred in the Middle East. To find a pilot of a particular flight is the easiest thing in the world, were it not, the international freedoms we enjoy would simply not exist. Deportation is a bit extreme, what kind of violation did you have in mind for this? Licence suspension or revoked would seem to work well enough in most cases.
Aviation by its very nature is an international activity, there will always be foreign aircraft with foreign pilots around, to make some arbitrary reg's about what constitutes being based or resident in Europe is a load of baloney and everyone knows it. Freedom means less regulation not more.
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 10,815
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The N reg arn't allowed to be owned by someone thats not resident in the US. So they pay a company to hold the plane in trust on there behalf. The US company is allowed to own the aircraft in the US.
They wouldn't be allowed to own it under their own name if resident in the EU. So they use the loophole to be able to have the N reg.
I have never heard of a UK pilot ever getting there licnese suspended there have been cases of folk loosing medicals for metal health reasosns.
There have also been cases when folk have agreed to hand in there licenses to reduce the penalties in court but I have never heard of anyones license being suspend or removed. And in all honest in some cases it is deserved. Maybe the slightly crazy vet Maurise Kirk i think his name is, has had his license suspended but thats the only one I can think might have.
In europe they they tend to fine the **** out of you or the company for any breaches locally and keep the aircraft until its all sorted out. You have to be taken to court and be sentenced for any penalties apply. I belive the FAA can decide punishments etc without having the case go before a legal type.
The airbus at Brum that flew for 10 miles at NPA mins then eventually landed after using the wrong DME is an example. Crew legged it on the next flight out and it sat there for weeks with the AAIB investigating.
They wouldn't be allowed to own it under their own name if resident in the EU. So they use the loophole to be able to have the N reg.
I have never heard of a UK pilot ever getting there licnese suspended there have been cases of folk loosing medicals for metal health reasosns.
There have also been cases when folk have agreed to hand in there licenses to reduce the penalties in court but I have never heard of anyones license being suspend or removed. And in all honest in some cases it is deserved. Maybe the slightly crazy vet Maurise Kirk i think his name is, has had his license suspended but thats the only one I can think might have.
In europe they they tend to fine the **** out of you or the company for any breaches locally and keep the aircraft until its all sorted out. You have to be taken to court and be sentenced for any penalties apply. I belive the FAA can decide punishments etc without having the case go before a legal type.
The airbus at Brum that flew for 10 miles at NPA mins then eventually landed after using the wrong DME is an example. Crew legged it on the next flight out and it sat there for weeks with the AAIB investigating.
Last edited by mad_jock; 22nd Apr 2012 at 12:07.
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: I can see it from here.
Posts: 678
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Oh, I see, I already knew this but when I hear about "loopholes" I always think there is some advantage to be had. Obviously in this case there is not, its simply what is necessary to have a "N" reg aircraft if you are not a U.S. citizen. Of course this is available to anyone who wishes it, right?
As far as the control subject goes, nothing will get fixed because, quite simlpy, nothing is broken.
As far as the control subject goes, nothing will get fixed because, quite simlpy, nothing is broken.
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: In the boot of my car!
Posts: 5,982
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Mad jock
You really are missing the point ! N reg is a very long and established legal practice in Europe where many have invested a lot of time and money,
There is a whole industry grown around them.
In. Free society it is normal to beat the competition by offering something better, cheaper and more attractive. EASA could have done that ? But no they use the old Russia tactics of beating and cheating people into submission.
EASA have not only a legal but moral obligation if they now want to change things to do so which is at least is minimally damaging in time and money to those involved.
Grandfather rights. Difference exam etc !
There is no sensible or practical reason why I as a N reg Captain should have to sits six months of ground studies to do what I already do!
May I add exams full of irrelevant rubbish.
Differences exam maybe ( air law)
You are wrong ! If I take six months off on ground studied do you think my job would still be there when I came back?
I am sorry but EASA are fully aware that they are on very sticky wickets with EU law if it goes to court!
I can assure you it will if the bi lateral comes to nothing which I am equally assured it won't !
Pace
You really are missing the point ! N reg is a very long and established legal practice in Europe where many have invested a lot of time and money,
There is a whole industry grown around them.
In. Free society it is normal to beat the competition by offering something better, cheaper and more attractive. EASA could have done that ? But no they use the old Russia tactics of beating and cheating people into submission.
EASA have not only a legal but moral obligation if they now want to change things to do so which is at least is minimally damaging in time and money to those involved.
Grandfather rights. Difference exam etc !
There is no sensible or practical reason why I as a N reg Captain should have to sits six months of ground studies to do what I already do!
May I add exams full of irrelevant rubbish.
Differences exam maybe ( air law)
You are wrong ! If I take six months off on ground studied do you think my job would still be there when I came back?
I am sorry but EASA are fully aware that they are on very sticky wickets with EU law if it goes to court!
I can assure you it will if the bi lateral comes to nothing which I am equally assured it won't !
Pace
Last edited by Pace; 22nd Apr 2012 at 13:36.
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: ME
Posts: 5,505
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
So if my boss decides to spend the summer in his European home, will all of his crew flying a nationally registered aircraft be required to have JAA/EASA licence?
What is the EASA definition of your base?
Mutt
What is the EASA definition of your base?
Mutt
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: UK,Twighlight Zone
Posts: 0
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If I take six months off on ground studied do you think my job would still be there when I came back?
Pace, with all due respect you have fallen for the hype about how difficult people think the exams are. For an experienced ATP they are just not that difficult.
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: schermoney and left front seat
Age: 57
Posts: 2,438
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
EASA have not only a legal but moral obligation if they now want to change things to do so which is at least is minimally damaging in time and money to those involved.
Now, what EASA proposes / has decided and the way to take influence is a different matter, anyone that does work for a living and tells me he has been able to really check what has been proposed and then comment and - most important - that his input had a real impact: hats off. Last but not least: it did not matter that probably most of us think that the regulation is a total overkill.
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: In the boot of my car!
Posts: 5,982
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
His Dudeness
But of course lets please not forget That this duel licensing will never happen!
As stated by EASA it is NOT their wish. Their wish is a Bi Lateral on FCL with the USA.
Most of us doubted those EASA claims but they appear to be true.
We will have to await the outcome of the high powered meeting this june to see where this is all heading.
Pace
But of course lets please not forget That this duel licensing will never happen!
As stated by EASA it is NOT their wish. Their wish is a Bi Lateral on FCL with the USA.
Most of us doubted those EASA claims but they appear to be true.
We will have to await the outcome of the high powered meeting this june to see where this is all heading.
Pace
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: UK,Twighlight Zone
Posts: 0
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Let's see what the FAA has to say to abondoning the 6/6 in favour of annual proficiency checks which is part of the EASA requirement for the bi lateral.
The US and Canada were able to achieve an agreement as the have similar training regimes and similar currency requirements.
I personally think you are hanging your hat on the wrong peg pace, but please feel free to throw it back at me later if I am proved wrong.
I just don't think there is enough common ground to allow a simple 1-1 exchange.
The US and Canada were able to achieve an agreement as the have similar training regimes and similar currency requirements.
I personally think you are hanging your hat on the wrong peg pace, but please feel free to throw it back at me later if I am proved wrong.
I just don't think there is enough common ground to allow a simple 1-1 exchange.
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: ME
Posts: 5,505
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Mad Jock, I thought that it was the residence of the operator and not the pilot? So my question still stands, if the operator moves to Europe for the summer, has he got to use EASA licensed pilots?
Mutt..... (I already hold a JAR licence for aircraft that Im flying, so not really affected by this, but curious)
Mutt..... (I already hold a JAR licence for aircraft that Im flying, so not really affected by this, but curious)
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Location: Location:
Age: 53
Posts: 1,110
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Also consider this
If I fly an M reg aircraft, I lose my EASA medical but have a validation for the M reg aircraft on my FAA ATP & Medical.
I've done my 14 exams, I know the local procedures.
Will I be legal
If I fly an M reg aircraft, I lose my EASA medical but have a validation for the M reg aircraft on my FAA ATP & Medical.
I've done my 14 exams, I know the local procedures.
Will I be legal
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 10,815
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It depends how you define operators residence.
I don't think they have even defined by what an operator is yet.
And it might take a couple of test cases to sort it out.
They haven't started down that road yet. And its one of the things I suspect that people are now trying to find ways of getting there aircraft deemed resident in a none EU country.
I would have thought that having a principle who is a national of a country outside the EU and has pilots flying his aircraft which have work permits for that country will push the likely hood of it being none resident.
I don't think they have even defined by what an operator is yet.
And it might take a couple of test cases to sort it out.
They haven't started down that road yet. And its one of the things I suspect that people are now trying to find ways of getting there aircraft deemed resident in a none EU country.
I would have thought that having a principle who is a national of a country outside the EU and has pilots flying his aircraft which have work permits for that country will push the likely hood of it being none resident.
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: ME
Posts: 5,505
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It will be interesting to see how this works out.
Although they are not a corporate aviation operator, I am curious about operators such as UPS Europe who appear to have US registered B757 aircraft flown by US crews based in Europe. Do they rotate the aircraft / crew in order to avoid having them classed as "based in Europe"?
Mutt
Although they are not a corporate aviation operator, I am curious about operators such as UPS Europe who appear to have US registered B757 aircraft flown by US crews based in Europe. Do they rotate the aircraft / crew in order to avoid having them classed as "based in Europe"?
Mutt