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Should EASA be allowed to monopolise licencing in Europe?

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Should EASA be allowed to monopolise licencing in Europe?

Old 11th Apr 2012, 07:53
  #41 (permalink)  
 
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Yup, all these N-reg owners are either gonig to sell their aircraft and fly Ryanair (of course nobody in Europe is going to buy those aircraft, they will all end up in the US and Asia) while some other owners are going to root up their business, family and friends and move to Africa so they can continue using their aircraft.


Blimey, I am in a sarcastic mood today.
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Old 11th Apr 2012, 08:02
  #42 (permalink)  
 
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You certainly have a warped view of the aviation world.

It's not unusual though.

A while ago I went to an aviation presentation. Got talking to one well lunched (well rounded) chappie, who turned out to work for the CAA. We exchanged a few words on GA and he went off on a rant on how N-regs evade maintenance etc etc etc (all the usual crap). I then asked him what he flew (as one does); it turned out he had never even had a PPL and had never flown anything. His aviation education seemed to have come wholly from others like him, and the Daily Mail. I know there are plenty of real pilots in the CAA but they also have a load of bad eggs like this one. The moment he learnt I was an aircraft owner and god forbid actually flew to places, he excused himself

Flyingfemme has it spot on.

BTW if I was going to illegal charters, or better still fly a plane without any maintenance, pilot license or medical, and fly IFR all over Europe, guess which reg I would pick? G or N?
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Old 11th Apr 2012, 10:43
  #43 (permalink)  
 
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Explain to me why my view is so warped, the N-reg boys are abusing a loophole, the loophole is now shut. You live and work in the EU, you follow the rules here, don't like it? Go live somewhere else.

This ruling is long overdue and welcomed by 99% of the pilots and operators here.

I do feel for those who are going to lose their jobs, but you were lucky you got away with it for this long.


The VAT boys are surely licking their fingers in anticipation too.
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Old 11th Apr 2012, 11:02
  #44 (permalink)  
 
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Tell me, cldrvr, when you pay your income tax, and the allowance is say £7k, and your gross is say 20k, do you pay tax on 13k, or do you do the socially responsible thing as a proper citizen of the united republic of europe and pay tax on the whole 20k?

The latter is the morally correct way. On top of that, if you really want to occupy the moral high ground, you sell your plane and donate the proceeds to the next Bangladesh flood appeal (due in about 2 weeks' time, usually). Or give it to Greece. (I'd approve of that; I fly there often; love the islands).

What a complete load of bollox about a "loophole". The UK signed a treaty called ICAO, which according to my very nearly (thankfully) forgotten JAA IR theory was signed in 1944 (or was it 1945, no WW2 ended then didn't it...) and this treaty permits aircraft to travel freely, subject to certain limits when operating commercially. Almost all countries have signed it. Most civilised countries have implemented it to a reasonable degree for private ops, and with a tight oversight regime for commercial ops.

Everybody knows the sensible way to approach this issue: align the Euro and the FAA systems. Nobody actually wants to be on the N-reg. It's a hassle.

Why don't the euro communists do that? Because aviation regulation here is little to do with safety. It's all to do with job protection, job creation, organised labour related working practices, all that kind of crap. Most of the people involved are too short sighted to see beyond the end of their nose. And you are one of them. No doubt, if you park your jet next to another jet which is bigger and has a toilet which can be externally emptied, you will go all green with envy and sneak up to it and loosen its landing gear brake hoses.
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Old 11th Apr 2012, 11:07
  #45 (permalink)  
 
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I want to know about this too massive cost saving opportunity too, please.

Email if preferred
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Old 11th Apr 2012, 11:15
  #46 (permalink)  
 
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They might realine in 10-20 years time. BUt they can't do it now until all the previous people that went N reg in europe have been made to convert over so they haven't recieved any benefit compared to those that have stuck with local reg.

It is a loophole you have to use as a none US person to even be able to own your plane. If it was only US passport holders or even green card holders that had N reg in Europe nobody would give a toss.

But you pay a company to hold your plane in trust which as a none US citizen your not allowed to own, with a N reg.

Looks like a loophole to me.
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Old 11th Apr 2012, 12:02
  #47 (permalink)  
 
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I am struggling to understand what loop hole everybody is referring to.

N reg in Europe are generally VAT paid (no AOC so no getting 0% rated) and yes those loop holes are closed (example: Danish 2010), and you would not want to fly in France without having this little VAT paid cetificate.

They pay the same NAV, airport, fuel fees and because they are not AOC they pay duties and VAT.

Jet crews need to be type rated and proficient thus every year off to the States for recurrent and they even changed their policies to have rated SIC.
Plus some owners and operators keep the standard and do 6 monthly recurrent’s.

Fair enough the Licence process has been the focus now because it is apparently cheaper, which it is, and yet proved again and again on par or better than most counterparts in safety. Just because you went the JAR route and suffered financially and mentally in obtaining it is not my problem.

In the Middle East many nationalities and licences mix in the cockpit and fly everywhere in the world and operate to, IMHO, a better standard than many European operations.

I have not heard anywhere that you can't own and operate a non N reg in the States, the only reason its not done because it does not make sense.

Yes i am in the same boat, but as my wife said "we have done Angola to Afghanistan, if the European mentality is now receded to a dictatorship we lived with it in the past we will do what we always do and just move on."

Personally I don’t earn the high flying salary that we all dreamed about when the dream of flight came to me, if it was a simple process and if there was recognition for my experience I would have gladly followed the line but I can't afford it and thats the sad truth.

I have 4 licences from four different countries and validations from another 3 and have always been able to comply but this time I am out. I will fly till the non-elected prosecute me and then I move on.

Sadly I am finally getting settled in my current home and its a shame to uproot my wife and son but hey what would life be without a struggle.

P.S

As a side note, I run and manage the operation I am in, it has been 6 long years of swallowing my pride and dealing with some very difficult people, if they don’t find people like myself and the other guys in it, this is one operation that will terminate. Which is a shame?
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Old 11th Apr 2012, 13:52
  #48 (permalink)  
 
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Perhaps the N reg guys should have spent less time telling the world how crap the JAA was and how easy the FAA IR was and kept there head down.....

As I have said many times before, I don't agree with what has happened as it is petty, but it was pretty inevitible. Keep poking a hornets nest and gloating about it and you will get stung. The little men in EASA have really stung you this time.
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Old 11th Apr 2012, 15:05
  #49 (permalink)  
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I think this whole episode has illustrated how meaningless the concept of regulatory oversight at a national level (or indeed EU level) has become in aviation, I mean the whole thing being dependent on the letter painted on your plane etc or where you live or whose air you happen to frequent. In an ideal world the USA and the EU would just agree on common standards for licencing, airspace etc, everyone's lives would be so much easier. Not going to happen, but would be nice.
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Old 11th Apr 2012, 20:17
  #50 (permalink)  
 
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Well Cathar, I hope they pay YOU very well, as PR co-ordinator for EASA
For what he is doing, Cathar is paid very well by EASA. He is not a PR coordinator (AFAIK he doesn't work in EASA's communications and external relations department), but has been lying on a number of occasions to the interested GA public about the Basic Regulation (drafting) and its likely implications and further implementations. As such, he is very ill-positioned to answer your question.

At Paygrade 14, he makes about € 14000 + expat allowance + benefits a month, all minimally taxed.

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Coming back to 4x4's original query, I find it hard to believe that you, if you are in employment, the new implementation of part FCL would actually have legal precedence over your current employment and the article 15 of the Charter of Fundamental Rights of the EU. Surely your legal council should be able to tell you who to sue should you lose employment over it.

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A few people obviously have some axes to grind in this forum. Examiners like bose-x (?) and billliebob (?) have a clear pecuniary interest in gold plating the FCL scene, with as many pointless recurrent flight tests as possible. Even if a logical natural conversion / grandfathering process form FAA papers to EASA papers were introduced, they would make a killing.
The same goes for Flight Training Organisations, that count on many useless but expensive conversions. In view of the many UK FTO's involved in the foul lobbying process over the last couple of years, I would advise anyone interested in EASA flight training to go abroad (Spain, Portugal and Greece spring to mind).


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Normally any reasonable person would be pro a simple straightforward uniform European regulatory environment in aviation. The fact of the matter is that it doesn't exist, because Member States keep clinging towards their own little quircks and exceptions in countless different subdomains.
If you cannot agree on a single European airspace, you shouldn't have a € 100+ Million annual budget organisation like EASA producing one incomprehensable and silly rule after the other. As such you are crippling and in the end you're just destroying an entire industry.

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EASA comitology is a perfect example of the current democratic deficit in Europe. You have an organisation without much oversight and accountability that can sprout rules like a bad case of writer's diarrhea. The production process of these rules lacks any kind of transparency and every now and again, rules are produced that go well beyond EASA's mandate. In addition, EASA and the Commission make a mockery of their own so called "Code of Good Administrative Behaviour", leaving the general public in the cold.
Oversight by the Commission comes in the form of blackmail by a bunch of frustrated and I dare say incompetent Aviation Safety "experts" like Eckard Seebohm. EASA is forced to do what they say, because the Commission can virtually eliminate large chunks of EASA's budget with a few keystrokes.
Oversight by the European Parliament is only there in theory. The Commission is also in a position to blackmail them, because the Commission has the sole prerogative to propose legislation. The average member of the Transport Committee in the EP doesn't really understand the issues or wants to press other issues. I found out that Brian Simpson folded partly because the Commission threatened to thwart some of his Rail-related ideas, so go figure.

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I find it a pity that so much of this mess is driven by "hating America"*. The rantings of clvrdr, which show a clear lack of understanding of the N-reg scene, are the latest painful example. People are not N-reg because they want to dodge taxes, but because they want a straightforward training scene, a straightforward maintenance process and pay fees commensurate with services rendered.

*Sure, there are quite of few topics where the behaviour of our starred and striped friends has been anything but exemplary, but I do have the impression that they understand what aviation is all about. If I were to design a rulebook for Europe, I would take a good look at what title 14 CFR has on offer, throw away their protectionist nonsense, focus on the safety related bits that have a history and use that as a basis for a pan-european aviation legislation. But that would be under the assumption that the European Member States actually want a uniform and clear and straighforward aviation rulebook.
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Old 11th Apr 2012, 21:39
  #51 (permalink)  
 
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For what he is doing, Cathar is paid very well by EASA. He is not a PR coordinator (AFAIK he doesn't work in EASA's communications and external relations department), but has been lying on a number of occasions to the interested GA public about the Basic Regulation (drafting) and its likely implications and further implementations. As such, he is very ill-positioned to answer your question.

At Paygrade 14, he makes about € 14000 + expat allowance + benefits a month, all minimally taxed.
I am very obviously confused about where I work (and how much I earn)! Thank you for the clarification.

I would be interested to know who I am in proudprivate's world - and what colour the sky is there.
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Old 11th Apr 2012, 21:56
  #52 (permalink)  
 
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Do you mean the IR renewal acts as a PPL renewal also? It ought to, for the price
No. Assuming that you're now maintaining JAA/EASA licences and ratings on top of your FAA ones, you won't be doing any renewals anyway - just revalidations. Sounds pedantic but it may become an important difference in the next few months .

Your JAR PPL is currently revalidated on a 5 year cycle by admin action. Next time round it'll be reissued as an EASA PPL and thus valid for life. Your SEP rating, on the other hand, is valid for 2 years. It can be revalidated either by test or by experience. The experience route requires 12 hours in the 2nd year, inc 6 P1 and 1 full hour with an FI. This hour with an FI can be replaced by any successful test, eg I've never revalidated my own SEP rating by an hour with an instructor, I've always used a test instead, be it FI test, MEP, IR, etc. In the (unlikely I know!) event that you haven't managed the experience requirements then your IR reval can also be combined into a SEP reval with some additional items. Some examiners will charge extra for this, but the paperwork itself for a revalidation by experience is free .
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Old 12th Apr 2012, 08:19
  #53 (permalink)  
 
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This hour with an FI can be replaced by any successful test
That's what I was getting at.

If I fly say 150hrs in a year, the annual IR renewal should be usable as the PPL revalidation. The instructor I am most likely to do the IR renewal with can also do PPL initial skills tests, etc.

FWIW I've always had a UK/JAA PPL and a UK medical. But I let the 5 year admin renewal lapse because I didn't need it. I always kept up the medicals because I use an AME who does both at the same time. I then redid the PPL with an examiner.
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Old 12th Apr 2012, 09:02
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Peter, you did not need to 'revalidate' your JAA PPL, but you did need to get it re-issued every 5 years. This was a purely administrative process and required only that you held a valid medical and had held a type or class rating valid within the preceding 5 years. No specific test or experience requirements existed for the re-issue of the licence, particularly not the PPL Skill Test or any part of it.

A successful IR proficiency check currently may count as the 'training flight with an instructor' required to revalidate a SEP Class Rating by experience. However, under the new rules (i.e. from 1 July), only a class or type rating proficiency check or skill test will count for this purpose.

I'm not sure where MJ is coming from with the statement that there will be "no more renewals - just revalidations". The same distinction between revalidation before expiry and renewal after expiry remains in respect of all ratings and certificates under the EASA implementing rules.
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Old 12th Apr 2012, 09:11
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and had held a type or class rating valid within the preceding 5 years
Maybe that's why I had to do a (more or less) PPL skills test. I left it for 6 years. I got the original PPL in 2001, didn't renew it in 2006, and when I came to "recover it" in ~2008 I had to do the skills test. Are you saying this wasn't needed?

The only revals I did were in 2002 (IMCR skills test) and one in 2004.

I had the FAA papers since 2004.

Regarding using the IR renewal (with some additional VFR work) for the PPL reval, it would seem to me that this is a private matter between you and the IRE - unless some regulation states that you have to actually land between the two.
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Old 12th Apr 2012, 10:16
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I have been asked to write a reply in here by a group of fellow Pilots. They are currently in the final stages of creating a new Association for Pilots in Europe.

The Association is to be for all groups of aviation within Europe and will primarily work on allowing Pilots to have a greater say in the various issues that has lately been coming from EASA/JAA/CAA and so forth.

No matter if it is the Private Pilot, Biz-jet Pilot or Airline Pilot, they feel that we all as pilot's has the right to be heard, and not just be put on the sideline which can be seen in this thread yet again has happened.

There currently are only a few organizations/groups in Europe working all the issues that has come up in the past years, but they feel that more can be done.

Issues as we seen just within the past year like Duty-time limitations to increase together with several others just can not go on without a fight.

So they would like me to post this here and try to see if others feel the same way and if they can find support from fellow Pilots who would be interested to Join once everything is finalized. It is of-cause FREE.

Currently the last few steps to be completed are the finalizing of the website/logo a a few other items that will all be completed within a short time.

Once everything is ready they will like to welcome all fellow pilots interested to join as free members and have a say in the general outline of the issues that we feel must be pushed. Together with creating a Board of Pilots who will take the lead in talking to the various Aviation and Government bodies throughout Europe.

Thanks
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Old 12th Apr 2012, 10:51
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4 x 4 has the right attitude, and I would strongly suggest that other pilots currently employed and flying on FAA Certs in Europe do not pay a euro cent to convert their licences to EASA.

This is indeed against human rights laws (discrimination) and it will be met with lawsuits. Mad Jock's rants about being jailed for not complying etc show him for the ill educated school boy that he is. A pathetic attempt at scaremongering by the pack mentality of him and Cldrvr that share one brain cell between them.

I strongly suggest to EASA that pilots currently employed on FAA Certs in Europe are immediately issued with an equivalent EASA licence with no conversion required.

This isn't exactly new, I can recall years ago when JAA first arrived on the scene that many FAA qualified pilots employed in certain newly accepted European countries, were actually given equivalent licences under JAA if requested without the need for conversion.

So, either accept this EASA, or get writing a very large cheque.

Oh, and I haven't heard of anyone being arrested in European member states who are flying on FAA Certs where the Country hasn't deferred implementation until 2014. They would find it impossible as most Pilots probably haven't heard of this pathetic ruling from the comatose bottom feeder sessions in Brussels.
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Old 12th Apr 2012, 11:46
  #58 (permalink)  
 
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Ain't going to happen unless FAA issue certs to EASA license holders under the same terms.

You can't sue for a legislation change affecting you.

We will see what comes out in the wash.

I suspect that this has been planned for years and just now its in the final play.

As bose says folk have been poking them for years and now they have got the reaction.
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Old 12th Apr 2012, 12:35
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Mad Jock, Yes, I can sue for a legislation change affecting me. You really don't know anything do you ? Your must have a really high opinion of yourself to think that you act as policeman, judge and EASA spokesman.
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Old 12th Apr 2012, 13:08
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I have been asked to write a reply in here by a group of fellow Pilots. They are currently in the final stages of creating a new Association for Pilots in Europe.
Just what we need, yet another organisation thinking they should represent pilots but will just add to the confusion.

Spend your time productivity by getting pilots to support the voices they already have.

You might be free now, but that's not a sustainable model. Travel to meetings etc as well as websites, technology etc all need paying for.
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