Should EASA be allowed to monopolise licencing in Europe?
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FAA Certificated Pilots in Europe.
Gentlemen....many thanks for your responses to my posting, both supportive and non. It has made very interesting reading, and am quite sure that everyone who has expressed a passionate opinion, has done so from their own viewpoint and most likely feels totally justified.
I have been a little taken aback by some of the venom that was forthcoming, especially with regard to N Reg Pilots and Operators, from some, whom are probably still in their early years in this great Industry of ours....Yes Guys, the truth is, whether you want to get on your High Horse and act like a Trotskyist Trade Union Leader.....and demand that JAA/EASA is the only true way forward....the simple fact is....we do love Flying.....not for the Money.....I am saddened, when, with the potential loss of my Career....I can hear fellow Pilots commenting that the Demise of N Reg Aircraft in Europe will increase their own personal incomes.....I started flying at the age of 13....working as a Hangar Rat, 4 weekends work, got 1 hour in an Auster. That is why I started flying.
Something I did not mention in my thread, was that I completed all the old CAA ATPL, but due to the positions I was offered over the years, I let it lapse....yes, De Facto.....we can, and have been as diligent as you....but life sometimes takes some different paths.....but the one thing I do recall, was that having completed "all those nasty CAA exams".....did I come away really that much better off....CAAFU's Initial IR was no different to my FAA Multi I/R....perhaps a little less Starchy maybe...but the flight standard....no different. Morse Code and Astro Nav.....need I say more.
I for one, have never baited the CAA/JAA/EASA.....and I don't think that many of my Professional colleagues have either.....we just got on with our jobs and made a living, within the auspices of the Rules and regulations enacted within the ICAO accords......yes of course, we have all heard the NEWBIE and Wannabe, crowing about how much easier it appears to do an FAA course as opposed to the European equivalent.....but Easier?....less costly certainly.....but young men are a little stupid, and sometimes don't say the cleverest things. Having held both Licences, I see upsides and downsides to both....and in truth, perhaps we should all do both, as I believe that the blend of European Academia, and American Practicality produce a far better Pilot, and also if it enables younger Pilots to gain more hours at a cheaper price, then this is a good thing......as nothing, in my humble opinion....nothing...replaces experience.
If we were being inundated with Dodgy Crews from Godonlyknowswhereistan, then I could understand some of the opinions expressed here, but this is not the case...this is the EU doing some FAA kicking, and just because the FAA is not going to submit to Petty Rulings, and Farcical regulations that are dream't up in an institution the likes of which we find in Brussels....
Should therE be any FAA N-reg drivers or owners out there who are in a similar position to myself, then please PM me, and we can talk further about this, and whether, as mentioned earlier in this thread, there is any remote possibility of bringing a Discriminatory case against the EU/EASA.
I have been a little taken aback by some of the venom that was forthcoming, especially with regard to N Reg Pilots and Operators, from some, whom are probably still in their early years in this great Industry of ours....Yes Guys, the truth is, whether you want to get on your High Horse and act like a Trotskyist Trade Union Leader.....and demand that JAA/EASA is the only true way forward....the simple fact is....we do love Flying.....not for the Money.....I am saddened, when, with the potential loss of my Career....I can hear fellow Pilots commenting that the Demise of N Reg Aircraft in Europe will increase their own personal incomes.....I started flying at the age of 13....working as a Hangar Rat, 4 weekends work, got 1 hour in an Auster. That is why I started flying.
Something I did not mention in my thread, was that I completed all the old CAA ATPL, but due to the positions I was offered over the years, I let it lapse....yes, De Facto.....we can, and have been as diligent as you....but life sometimes takes some different paths.....but the one thing I do recall, was that having completed "all those nasty CAA exams".....did I come away really that much better off....CAAFU's Initial IR was no different to my FAA Multi I/R....perhaps a little less Starchy maybe...but the flight standard....no different. Morse Code and Astro Nav.....need I say more.
I for one, have never baited the CAA/JAA/EASA.....and I don't think that many of my Professional colleagues have either.....we just got on with our jobs and made a living, within the auspices of the Rules and regulations enacted within the ICAO accords......yes of course, we have all heard the NEWBIE and Wannabe, crowing about how much easier it appears to do an FAA course as opposed to the European equivalent.....but Easier?....less costly certainly.....but young men are a little stupid, and sometimes don't say the cleverest things. Having held both Licences, I see upsides and downsides to both....and in truth, perhaps we should all do both, as I believe that the blend of European Academia, and American Practicality produce a far better Pilot, and also if it enables younger Pilots to gain more hours at a cheaper price, then this is a good thing......as nothing, in my humble opinion....nothing...replaces experience.
If we were being inundated with Dodgy Crews from Godonlyknowswhereistan, then I could understand some of the opinions expressed here, but this is not the case...this is the EU doing some FAA kicking, and just because the FAA is not going to submit to Petty Rulings, and Farcical regulations that are dream't up in an institution the likes of which we find in Brussels....
Should therE be any FAA N-reg drivers or owners out there who are in a similar position to myself, then please PM me, and we can talk further about this, and whether, as mentioned earlier in this thread, there is any remote possibility of bringing a Discriminatory case against the EU/EASA.
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Nice post 4x4
For my two cents, we pilots are all better off if we can fly everything, everywhere.
To continue this logic of building walls, the EU pilots would be the ones getting screwed the most if the FAA came up with these nonsense regs or went further and said only US citizens could get FAA licenses or fly N reg aircraft.
For my two cents, we pilots are all better off if we can fly everything, everywhere.
To continue this logic of building walls, the EU pilots would be the ones getting screwed the most if the FAA came up with these nonsense regs or went further and said only US citizens could get FAA licenses or fly N reg aircraft.
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Good post 4x4 
There has never been any kind of safety case for an anti N-reg action, and not even EASA pretends there is any such.
The justification given by the EASA gravy train riders, when asked face to face, tends to be "we are Europeans and we must have European rules, not American rules".
That kind of reply is self evidently stupid but they are in power whereas you are not
It's like you telling your 2 year old kid that he can't have the ice cream because Mum did not let you buy the car you wanted. It works because you have all the power and he has none, but it leaves the same kind of bad taste in the mouth.
Regulators aside, the people who are in favour of these Euro rules are usually doing it for straight financial reasons.
Maintenance shops like N-regs because they charge the G-reg price but they don't have to change (Part 91 ops) some lifed parts and they get you to pay the A&P/IA separately to get the Annual signed off
There has never been any kind of safety case for an anti N-reg action, and not even EASA pretends there is any such.
The justification given by the EASA gravy train riders, when asked face to face, tends to be "we are Europeans and we must have European rules, not American rules".
That kind of reply is self evidently stupid but they are in power whereas you are not
It's like you telling your 2 year old kid that he can't have the ice cream because Mum did not let you buy the car you wanted. It works because you have all the power and he has none, but it leaves the same kind of bad taste in the mouth.
Regulators aside, the people who are in favour of these Euro rules are usually doing it for straight financial reasons.
Maintenance shops like N-regs because they charge the G-reg price but they don't have to change (Part 91 ops) some lifed parts and they get you to pay the A&P/IA separately to get the Annual signed off
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Have followed this thread with interest. I personally feel that EASA is just JAR all over again; yet again a massive upheaval for the industry creating gross amounts of totally unnecissary paperwork and eye-watering costs that drive pilots out of careers/hobbies and squeezes already pressed operators even harder, all for no safety benefit whatsoever (which is what JAR/EASA has supposedly been all about, ironically) and what seems to be nothing more that a thinly-veiled political agenda of empire-building.
The reason that many have went down the FAA route quite simply is down to much more reasonable costs for training, licensing, maintenance and less paperwork. The hard fact is that the FAA route for both pilots and operators is a much friendlier, easier, cheaper and far less hostile route than JAR/EASA. EASA obviously don't like this but it is they who created the "problem" of European pilots/operators being licensed outside the holy land of the United States of Europe. I say "problem" in quotation marks as it is only regarded as a "problem" by the twisted bereaucrats running the EASA project. Personally I see no problem in pilots/operators being foreign licensed as long as said licensing is ICAO compliant. As I'm sure most others do. However we have this situation where this political project and the people behind it harbour this childish grudge against anyone freeing themselves from their expensive, politically motivated, overburdened regulatory system.
I find it bizarre that EASA has seemingly been given free reign to ride roughshod over pilots and operators to such a shocking extent. But there again it is a political agenda, and such ways seems to be the way of things in Europe these days...
Just my thoughts
Smithy
The reason that many have went down the FAA route quite simply is down to much more reasonable costs for training, licensing, maintenance and less paperwork. The hard fact is that the FAA route for both pilots and operators is a much friendlier, easier, cheaper and far less hostile route than JAR/EASA. EASA obviously don't like this but it is they who created the "problem" of European pilots/operators being licensed outside the holy land of the United States of Europe. I say "problem" in quotation marks as it is only regarded as a "problem" by the twisted bereaucrats running the EASA project. Personally I see no problem in pilots/operators being foreign licensed as long as said licensing is ICAO compliant. As I'm sure most others do. However we have this situation where this political project and the people behind it harbour this childish grudge against anyone freeing themselves from their expensive, politically motivated, overburdened regulatory system.
I find it bizarre that EASA has seemingly been given free reign to ride roughshod over pilots and operators to such a shocking extent. But there again it is a political agenda, and such ways seems to be the way of things in Europe these days...
Just my thoughts
Smithy
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To continue this logic of building walls, the EU pilots would be the ones getting screwed the most if the FAA came up with these nonsense regs or went further and said only US citizens could get FAA licenses or fly N reg aircraft.
I'm an American citizen, living in Europe for over 40 yrs now and follow the rules where I live! I could "own" a N-reg aircraft if I wanted, but I couldn't own a D-reg. It's the law, big deal. I accept it.
Much has been said on this subject already but I will only add that it's perfectly normal for a country to want the aircraft flying in their airspace to confer to their rules. The whole thing is about where the aircraft "operator" is based and where the aircraft is stationed. When I first arrived in Germany years ago, I had only one year to change my car drivers licence to a German one. So, why SHOULDN'T that be required of aircraft as well? Even the FAA says that when flying/operating with N-regs in other countries you are to adhere to the rules of that country (sorry, can't find the §§ at the moment, but it's in the FAR'S).
I think some of you are really going overboard with your attitude. All walks of life have restrictions, rules, laws, etc. and sometimes we just must adhere to them. With the EASA rules we all were given the opportunity to comment and give our 2-cents worth to the process, a very unusual deal! If you didn't take advantage of it, then shut up! If you didn't know about.... well, all the flying press was full of info over the past years and the already existing organisations did their best to act in all of our interests.
But, there were 27 countries to put under one system... everyone wanting THEIR rules in the law. NOT an easy task (and no, I am not with EASA! I've just followed the process). You win some, you lose some.... that's life!
So, I had to finally get that all out of my system.... sorry 'bout that folks.
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What I am a bit confused with, if one had a CAA ATPL which is lapsed, how long does it then take, for you to reinstate it without the need for all the exams flight tests etc. Surely your not back to the beginning again are you ?
Just to clarify, if the IR has expired by more than 7 years you will need to do just the IR exams again (not all of the ATPL exams) and complete mandatory refresher training, which, according to the Regulation, means doing the initial IR course again.
To get an EASA ATPL, you must also have a minimum of 500 hours multi-pilot time and (I believe) a valid MPA type rating. There are still a significant number of people holding CAA national ATPLs who do not meet this requirement and will only be able to convert to an EASA CPL. For them, it will be necessary to pass all of the EASA ATPL theoretical knowledge examinations in order to get an ATPL back again.
To get an EASA ATPL, you must also have a minimum of 500 hours multi-pilot time and (I believe) a valid MPA type rating. There are still a significant number of people holding CAA national ATPLs who do not meet this requirement and will only be able to convert to an EASA CPL. For them, it will be necessary to pass all of the EASA ATPL theoretical knowledge examinations in order to get an ATPL back again.
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Hey Westwind,
If we're being honest here, I'll restate the obvious. What burns the American (and other non-EASA pilots) is that it takes a major effort for us to convert our license.
It is NOT anything like getting a "German drivers license. To be "fair" all you EASA pilots should have to pass 14 exams of total bull**** before you can fly in the US.
Many professions have these absurd hurdles that must me jumped over and through. The only reason is to restrict the "free trade" of professionals.
FR
If we're being honest here, I'll restate the obvious. What burns the American (and other non-EASA pilots) is that it takes a major effort for us to convert our license.
It is NOT anything like getting a "German drivers license. To be "fair" all you EASA pilots should have to pass 14 exams of total bull**** before you can fly in the US.
Many professions have these absurd hurdles that must me jumped over and through. The only reason is to restrict the "free trade" of professionals.
FR
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as you must be an EU citizen to own an EU aircraft.
but I couldn't own a D-reg
I had only one year to change my car drivers licence to a German one.
- road tax is a huge tax raising tool (aircraft over 2T IFR pay route charges which are collected according to the airspace you overfly, by Eurocontrol)
- foreign reg cars avoid paying parking tickets, camera generated penalties, and (if you don't stop after an accident and leave the country before they find you) prosecution for any offence short of one that is extraditable (which basically means something like killing somebody) - whereas in aviation ICAO provides for international enforcement; in 2003 I busted a French TRA and the CAA went after me on behalf of the DGAC
- the linkage between road tax databases and insurance databases and number plate databases is not international, so those checks would all fail, etc etc whereas in aviation the airport where you didn't pay the bills soon goes after you
The only reason is to restrict the "free trade" of professionals.
These people are only human. Same with ISO9000 and all the other scams which pervade business in the EU. All the people working in those fields have families to feed, etc. The other day I got a quote for a couple of little items. I replied with an email saying "please ship them, order number is XYZ". They would not accept that because their ISO9000 quality manager requires each customer to explicitly specify what he wants to buy
Large chunks of our society are now stuck in this s**t and aviation is no different; in fact aviation is brilliant because the "s-word" takes care of just about any objection.The "fault" lies at the top, for allowing these monsters to come into existence. No good blaming EASA. Blame those who set it up, and then didn't oversee it closely and allowed it to grow out of control.
As regards safety, read the AF447 reports. If that plane was on the registry of the Peoples' Republic of Upper Volta, it would make sense. But because it is (was) F-reg, nobody could believe it and you got hundreds of pages on p p r u n e analysing why it happened.
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No its not, its just not what all the N reg drivers want to hear.
If you had from the beginning been in the system you would give a flying toss about the current changes in the system becuase it really doesn't effect you at all if you are already IR'd up.
ATPL, two types IR, SEP, FI my life has not change in the slightest with the coming of EASA. And my training only cost 35k cpl/ir/mep/fi/mcc.
If you had from the beginning been in the system you would give a flying toss about the current changes in the system becuase it really doesn't effect you at all if you are already IR'd up.
ATPL, two types IR, SEP, FI my life has not change in the slightest with the coming of EASA. And my training only cost 35k cpl/ir/mep/fi/mcc.
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Well you started all of this b*llocks about 14 exams, with no coherent argument, you just said 'do it' . As for your own personal evaluation I couldn't have written anything else better about you myself. I'll give you this, you are very insightful into your own personality.
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No I didn't it was you lot bitching that you couldn't be arsed doing them. Because they were so so hard and difficult.
The fact is that brickies and the like with no secondary education passes managed to do them all the time. There are thousands of pilots a year pass these exams with no great stress.
Stop bloody moaning and get them done. And stop doing this pish "I know you are I said you are but what am I" bollocks.
You don't have a clue how I run my cockpit or for that matter what I am like as an instructor or line trainer.
The fact is that brickies and the like with no secondary education passes managed to do them all the time. There are thousands of pilots a year pass these exams with no great stress.
Stop bloody moaning and get them done. And stop doing this pish "I know you are I said you are but what am I" bollocks.
You don't have a clue how I run my cockpit or for that matter what I am like as an instructor or line trainer.
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would you "children" stop fighting and get back to flying! The rules are the way they are and we had years of time to comment and get ourselves involved in the process. If you didn't take part, then tough. And every country has the right to make rules for its airspace and if all 27 (or whatever the number) of EASA member countries adopt these new regs, then that's the way it is. 
Oh, and part of the problem, as I've read here somewhere, is on the FAA side, not only the EASA.
And don't forget Part-FCL pilots... when you get your new EASA licenc, it will probably have a new number (again!) and you will have to redo the FAA validation.....
Oh, and part of the problem, as I've read here somewhere, is on the FAA side, not only the EASA.
And don't forget Part-FCL pilots... when you get your new EASA licenc, it will probably have a new number (again!) and you will have to redo the FAA validation.....
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WestWind1950 would like the children to stop fighting, I wonder who forces him, or her, to read this thread anyway. I don't like the Weaver thread, so guess what, I don't read it.
There are two very different camps of pilots who are affected by the rule changes being discussed here, those who fly for pleasure and those who earn their living flying foreign registered aircraft. I think all would agree that to be able to fly the foreign aircraft the appropriate licence had to be obtained by the individuals, clearly the aircraft existed first and the employment opportunity came along thearafter. This actually happened to me whilst living in Turkey with 90 hours on a UK PPL. I dutifully went to the states, got myself a CPL/IR, CFII/MEI and returned to Turkey only to be told that they would not issue a work permit for that occupation. I returned to the UK and was offered a job on a "N" registered aircraft, no substitue for a bit of luck.
My other bit of luck was that I then went down the UK CPL route and that might well be my salvation in the future. I really feel for the guy's who could loose their livelihood due to the new reg's.
IMHO the purpose of this thread is to publicly discuss the merits of introducing rule changes that will have no significance on safety. The only changes being pilots, ab initio or otherwise, being locked into a training scenario that is inefficient and expensive with some previous choices removed.
The only effect all this is going to have will be European FTO's being able to operate without the competition of oversea's FTO's and the various European airspace administrations will enjoy more revenue.
Increased safety, NO. Increased jobs, NO. Increased expense, YES.
There are two very different camps of pilots who are affected by the rule changes being discussed here, those who fly for pleasure and those who earn their living flying foreign registered aircraft. I think all would agree that to be able to fly the foreign aircraft the appropriate licence had to be obtained by the individuals, clearly the aircraft existed first and the employment opportunity came along thearafter. This actually happened to me whilst living in Turkey with 90 hours on a UK PPL. I dutifully went to the states, got myself a CPL/IR, CFII/MEI and returned to Turkey only to be told that they would not issue a work permit for that occupation. I returned to the UK and was offered a job on a "N" registered aircraft, no substitue for a bit of luck.
My other bit of luck was that I then went down the UK CPL route and that might well be my salvation in the future. I really feel for the guy's who could loose their livelihood due to the new reg's.
IMHO the purpose of this thread is to publicly discuss the merits of introducing rule changes that will have no significance on safety. The only changes being pilots, ab initio or otherwise, being locked into a training scenario that is inefficient and expensive with some previous choices removed.
The only effect all this is going to have will be European FTO's being able to operate without the competition of oversea's FTO's and the various European airspace administrations will enjoy more revenue.
Increased safety, NO. Increased jobs, NO. Increased expense, YES.
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Its never been about safety, its always been about control over the aircraft and crew based in a country.
With the success vconverstions of owners and pilots going FAA the NAA's were loosing control over large percentages of the fleets perm based in thier countries and also the pilot groups.
Can nobody see why they can't allow that to continue?
With the success vconverstions of owners and pilots going FAA the NAA's were loosing control over large percentages of the fleets perm based in thier countries and also the pilot groups.
Can nobody see why they can't allow that to continue?