Vulcan to the Sky, The End? (Merged)
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What is going at Bruntingthorpe
I can read what Tim and others are saying; in particular Tim says
I know it's easy to say "ah hah, here we go again - next month they'll be after even more cash, blah blah" but as far as I can determine, this doesn't appear to be the case. The situation appears to be that once this hurdle is cleared, the aircraft can reach the test flight stage.
With great respect to Tim and the support he is giving this project, "as far as I can determine" and "appears to be" aren't the sort of basis on which corporate sponsors are going to chip in or get involved, I don't think it is going to enlist new individual supporters nor will it encourage further donations from those who have already given. These phrases seem typical of the lack of clarity and information that this project has suffered recently.
I know it's easy to say "ah hah, here we go again - next month they'll be after even more cash, blah blah" but as far as I can determine, this doesn't appear to be the case. The situation appears to be that once this hurdle is cleared, the aircraft can reach the test flight stage.
With great respect to Tim and the support he is giving this project, "as far as I can determine" and "appears to be" aren't the sort of basis on which corporate sponsors are going to chip in or get involved, I don't think it is going to enlist new individual supporters nor will it encourage further donations from those who have already given. These phrases seem typical of the lack of clarity and information that this project has suffered recently.
Last edited by A2QFI; 8th Aug 2006 at 10:13.
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Okay, exactly how much do they need to do what? There are THREE figures mentioned here, £1,000,000, '£250K' and £200K by the end of the month - so which of these figures is correct and what will that enable them to do:
1) Get it into the air for one flight to Duxford or
2) Allow it to fly for 10-15 years against all odds of increasing insurance and fuel costs, which are surely not going to be met by any air show organiser? Also, how many trained aircrew are going to be around to fly it?
It would be great if it was the latter, but there are an awful lot of optimistcs on here!
1) Get it into the air for one flight to Duxford or
2) Allow it to fly for 10-15 years against all odds of increasing insurance and fuel costs, which are surely not going to be met by any air show organiser? Also, how many trained aircrew are going to be around to fly it?
It would be great if it was the latter, but there are an awful lot of optimistcs on here!
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What's going on at Bruntingthorpe
I can read what Tim and others are saying, on the other thread re Vulcan; in particular Tim says
I know it's easy to say "ah hah, here we go again - next month they'll be after even more cash, blah blah" but as far as I can determine, this doesn't appear to be the case. The situation appears to be that once this hurdle is cleared, the aircraft can reach the test flight stage.
With great respect to Tim and the support he is giving this project, "as far as I can determine" and "appears to be" aren't the sort of basis on which corporate sponsors are going to chip in or get involved, I don't think it is going to enlist new individual supporters nor will it encourage further donations from those who have already given. These phrases seem typical of the lack of clarity and information that this project has suffered recently.
I know it's easy to say "ah hah, here we go again - next month they'll be after even more cash, blah blah" but as far as I can determine, this doesn't appear to be the case. The situation appears to be that once this hurdle is cleared, the aircraft can reach the test flight stage.
With great respect to Tim and the support he is giving this project, "as far as I can determine" and "appears to be" aren't the sort of basis on which corporate sponsors are going to chip in or get involved, I don't think it is going to enlist new individual supporters nor will it encourage further donations from those who have already given. These phrases seem typical of the lack of clarity and information that this project has suffered recently.
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Originally Posted by Tombstone
It strikes me that you don't really know an awful lot about this project, which is rather suprising for somebody with such a strong opinion on the matter.
Anyhow, I assume from the last few threads that we've said all there is to say on the subject, as we're going over the same ground again and again now.
For anyone who still agrees that it's worth trying to save the project a little while longer, please either send-off the message for HLF that is on here and other sites, or contact HLF yourselves. We can but try.
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I'm afraid any comments about this project have to be qualified to some degree, otherwise you know what happens - every smart a*se immediately sets-out to find information to the contrary, or simply contradicts what you say (point scoring seems to be a popular pastime on aviation forums), and frankly I don't want to waste time arguing for the sake of it. I have no idea of the real situation within TVOC - I can only base my views on the information I have and the questions I've asked.
Pleming says, quite specifically that they need 250K to keep the project going beyond the end of this month. That's the only "fact" that we now have, and that's the only fact that I'm keen to act upon. Exactly how the project proceeds after this is anybody's guess, but from what I have read and been told, it would seem that TVOC are confident that the rest of the money necessary to get the aircraft to flying condition will be found. Maybe they will find the money they need or maybe they'll just come back asking for more in due course, I don't know. I'm not TVOC's spokesman!
But as I keep saying, regardless of TVOC's rights and wrongs, what is the alternative? To say "okay, then the project ends now" basically - that's the only alternative on offer. Dump nearly three million quid, endless man hours and the hopes of thousands? Surely we can try, can't we?
I accept that fund raising is probably pointless now. I really can't see any other hope for the Vulcan other than the HLF. I think we have just one choice to make, between abandoning the project now (and never knowing if a complete, flying Vulcan would attract sponsorship or not), or persuading the HLF that after having spent so much, it would be complete folly not to spend a little bit more in order not to have wasted their original payment.
I don't need persuading that TVOC have turned this saga into a shambles, as that may well be the case - I don't know at the moment, but with three weeks left, I think we should do whatever we can to persuade the HLF that their money doesn't have to be wasted, regardless of whether you think the project has been a farce, or whether you think it's doomed to failure, etc.
Pleming says, quite specifically that they need 250K to keep the project going beyond the end of this month. That's the only "fact" that we now have, and that's the only fact that I'm keen to act upon. Exactly how the project proceeds after this is anybody's guess, but from what I have read and been told, it would seem that TVOC are confident that the rest of the money necessary to get the aircraft to flying condition will be found. Maybe they will find the money they need or maybe they'll just come back asking for more in due course, I don't know. I'm not TVOC's spokesman!
But as I keep saying, regardless of TVOC's rights and wrongs, what is the alternative? To say "okay, then the project ends now" basically - that's the only alternative on offer. Dump nearly three million quid, endless man hours and the hopes of thousands? Surely we can try, can't we?
I accept that fund raising is probably pointless now. I really can't see any other hope for the Vulcan other than the HLF. I think we have just one choice to make, between abandoning the project now (and never knowing if a complete, flying Vulcan would attract sponsorship or not), or persuading the HLF that after having spent so much, it would be complete folly not to spend a little bit more in order not to have wasted their original payment.
I don't need persuading that TVOC have turned this saga into a shambles, as that may well be the case - I don't know at the moment, but with three weeks left, I think we should do whatever we can to persuade the HLF that their money doesn't have to be wasted, regardless of whether you think the project has been a farce, or whether you think it's doomed to failure, etc.
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[QUOTE=Tim McLelland]
Pleming says, quite specifically that they need 250K to keep the project going beyond the end of this month. That's the only "fact" that we now have, and that's the only fact that I'm keen to act upon. QUOTE]
Tim, Why is Plemings statement a fact when the TVOC say £1m and various bits of their own PR quote wildly differing amounts ?
Why should HLF bale them out ? Its better to lose what they have done than a lorry load of more cash as well. You don't seem to grasp that unless the project is sustainable the same comments will come up month after month, do you expect HLF to carry on baling out until completion if TVOC can't keep their part of the bargain ?
Pleming says, quite specifically that they need 250K to keep the project going beyond the end of this month. That's the only "fact" that we now have, and that's the only fact that I'm keen to act upon. QUOTE]
Tim, Why is Plemings statement a fact when the TVOC say £1m and various bits of their own PR quote wildly differing amounts ?
Why should HLF bale them out ? Its better to lose what they have done than a lorry load of more cash as well. You don't seem to grasp that unless the project is sustainable the same comments will come up month after month, do you expect HLF to carry on baling out until completion if TVOC can't keep their part of the bargain ?
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Don't know why we should be surprised, getting any British aircraft flying seems to cost at least twice as much as originally planned and is always someone else's fault rather than the group/company that signed the contract in the first place...
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Originally Posted by Tim McLelland
the rest of the money necessary to get the aircraft to flying condition will be found.
If they can't find £250K by the end of the month, what chance do they have of 'finding' additional funding? If they haven't got a sponsor now, one is not suddenly going to jump out of the woodwork at the last minute?
Tim, you're just confusing people. On the one hand you quote as 'fact' that £250k is required by the end of August, but admit that you're not TVOC's spokesman. TVOC's own website clearly states that:-
Surely you can see that such wildly differing statements adversely affect the credibility of any further appeal for funding? Now that you've managed to establish contact with Robert Pleming, perhaps you should ask him why the figure he's told you is only 1/4 of the sum quoted by TVOC.
"a million pounds are still needed before the end of August"
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Tim,
the simple fact is last I'm a realist who knows that this project is coming to an end. There is no real momentum & a severe cash flow problem for which there is no obvious answer.
I'm certainly not a compulsive misery, I was simply commenting of the fact that your posts contain no concrete information infact, your estimation of what the project hopes to achieve with 250K contradicts much of what is said on the project's website.
I'm afraid you simply HAVE to look beyond the end of the month, as any organisation contemplating offering funds towards the project will. The horizon looks bleak, sad but true.
Don't take my attitude towards the project personally, after all you have stated that you have no commercial interest with the Vulcan.
Don't fret, I'm sure your book will still sell many copies, I'll probably buy it myself!
the simple fact is last I'm a realist who knows that this project is coming to an end. There is no real momentum & a severe cash flow problem for which there is no obvious answer.
I'm certainly not a compulsive misery, I was simply commenting of the fact that your posts contain no concrete information infact, your estimation of what the project hopes to achieve with 250K contradicts much of what is said on the project's website.
I'm afraid you simply HAVE to look beyond the end of the month, as any organisation contemplating offering funds towards the project will. The horizon looks bleak, sad but true.
Don't take my attitude towards the project personally, after all you have stated that you have no commercial interest with the Vulcan.
Don't fret, I'm sure your book will still sell many copies, I'll probably buy it myself!
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I think that people should stop beating up Tim for the sake of it and just listen to the words he's saying 
The only options on the table at the moment are to either write to the HLF or to give up and accept that XH558 is destined for a premature visit to the scrap metal yard.
I don't believe TVOC have handled this well and neither does Tim but he doesn't want to see it end with the scrapman and neither do I, for that reason I sent off the letter he suggested to the HLF.
The only options on the table at the moment are to either write to the HLF or to give up and accept that XH558 is destined for a premature visit to the scrap metal yard.
I don't believe TVOC have handled this well and neither does Tim but he doesn't want to see it end with the scrapman and neither do I, for that reason I sent off the letter he suggested to the HLF.
Last edited by GonzoXL5; 8th Aug 2006 at 19:57.
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Having had a quick scan through your posts Mr Charlton, it seems that of all the forums and threads available to you on Pprune, the only ones you actually have any opinions on are the ones regarding XH558.
And 'Shock, Horror!!!!' every single post made by you denigrates the VTST, TVOC, and virtually anybody with anything to do with the project. Every post is a negative one, and it seems that you have little else to occupy your time, other than doing your darndest to scaremonger and turn people away from the project, and try as hard as you can to find any tiny snip of information posted by anyone, which you can contradict and try to make yourself look all clever
A quick look through your posts on some of the other aviation forums shows that this is the exact same thing as you have done everywhere else your stain of a presence has been noted.
It seems to me that you either have a terrible axe to grind with somebody or some aspect of the Vulcan project, or stand to gain in some way from it's failure.
Or could it simply be that you are in fact a troll with far too much time on his hands, with nothing at all interesting to say on any subject other than the one you seem to spend all of your time trying to put down
And 'Shock, Horror!!!!' every single post made by you denigrates the VTST, TVOC, and virtually anybody with anything to do with the project. Every post is a negative one, and it seems that you have little else to occupy your time, other than doing your darndest to scaremonger and turn people away from the project, and try as hard as you can to find any tiny snip of information posted by anyone, which you can contradict and try to make yourself look all clever
A quick look through your posts on some of the other aviation forums shows that this is the exact same thing as you have done everywhere else your stain of a presence has been noted.
It seems to me that you either have a terrible axe to grind with somebody or some aspect of the Vulcan project, or stand to gain in some way from it's failure.
Or could it simply be that you are in fact a troll with far too much time on his hands, with nothing at all interesting to say on any subject other than the one you seem to spend all of your time trying to put down
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Rocket, how wide of the mark can you get.
The reason I post almost exclusively on the topic is because, if you have read my posts, you will see that as a donor I am not alone in any sense in wanting to know what the hell my money is being spent on.
I haven't denigrated everyone to do with the project at all. I like many others have been asking Felicity specifically both in posts on their web site and in emails directly for the same information as everyone else.
If you think that asking for a detailed action plan, full disclosure of the statutory acocunts and some answers to concerns raised by me and other donors is scaremongering and trying to turn people away from the project you are much mistaken. Its simply asking for what we should have been getting all along AND IS THE LEGAL OBLIGATION OF THE TRUSTEES. In case it escaped your notice I am not alone in calling for this.
I stand to gain in no way whatsoever from its success or failure I am simply a donor who cares passionately about it succeeding. I have openly advocated those in command standing aside to give others a run at it BEFORE it is too late if you bother to do your research. I have also criticised Felicity for a. not apparently being there and being on holiday (others posted this info) and for working on a multitude of other things and not 100% on this project. I haven't resorted to saying anything that others don't equaly hold as important and its based on publicly available information.
As for time, you must have plenty of it to go through posts on this and other forums and try to single out one person for your ire when many say the same things.
And for the record, I am still donating every month and have not stopped doing so despite the debacle.
The reason I post almost exclusively on the topic is because, if you have read my posts, you will see that as a donor I am not alone in any sense in wanting to know what the hell my money is being spent on.
I haven't denigrated everyone to do with the project at all. I like many others have been asking Felicity specifically both in posts on their web site and in emails directly for the same information as everyone else.
If you think that asking for a detailed action plan, full disclosure of the statutory acocunts and some answers to concerns raised by me and other donors is scaremongering and trying to turn people away from the project you are much mistaken. Its simply asking for what we should have been getting all along AND IS THE LEGAL OBLIGATION OF THE TRUSTEES. In case it escaped your notice I am not alone in calling for this.
I stand to gain in no way whatsoever from its success or failure I am simply a donor who cares passionately about it succeeding. I have openly advocated those in command standing aside to give others a run at it BEFORE it is too late if you bother to do your research. I have also criticised Felicity for a. not apparently being there and being on holiday (others posted this info) and for working on a multitude of other things and not 100% on this project. I haven't resorted to saying anything that others don't equaly hold as important and its based on publicly available information.
As for time, you must have plenty of it to go through posts on this and other forums and try to single out one person for your ire when many say the same things.
And for the record, I am still donating every month and have not stopped doing so despite the debacle.
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Well,
For somebody who cares so passionately about this project succeeding, you do seem to be doing an awful lot of bellyaching and doomcasting. You say you wish the project to succeed, yet you seem to do your best to spread a creeping cancer of doubt and defeatism.
If you really do wish to find out financial information from the Trustees, which as you say, they are legally obligated to provide, do you really think that the best way to go about that is by moaning and sniping, and contradicting the pettiest of facts on every single aviation forum you can find? I think we both know that there are correct ways to go about obtaining such facts, and that you use this as a smokescreen for your actions.
I do not single out one person for my ire, everybody is entitled to an opinion, but when one person crops up day after day, constantly ramming his opinions down your throat, and seemingly popping up wherever he can and trying to ram his opinion down everybody else's throat, it is not hard to see why you have become tiresome.
We have all got opinions on this subject. We may well agree on many issues regarding the management of this project and other areas concerning it, however, there are times and places for spouting forth opinions like that. Personally I believe that at this moment, with the project in the situation it is, that this is neither the time, nor the place.
For somebody who cares so passionately about this project succeeding, you do seem to be doing an awful lot of bellyaching and doomcasting. You say you wish the project to succeed, yet you seem to do your best to spread a creeping cancer of doubt and defeatism.
If you really do wish to find out financial information from the Trustees, which as you say, they are legally obligated to provide, do you really think that the best way to go about that is by moaning and sniping, and contradicting the pettiest of facts on every single aviation forum you can find? I think we both know that there are correct ways to go about obtaining such facts, and that you use this as a smokescreen for your actions.
I do not single out one person for my ire, everybody is entitled to an opinion, but when one person crops up day after day, constantly ramming his opinions down your throat, and seemingly popping up wherever he can and trying to ram his opinion down everybody else's throat, it is not hard to see why you have become tiresome.
We have all got opinions on this subject. We may well agree on many issues regarding the management of this project and other areas concerning it, however, there are times and places for spouting forth opinions like that. Personally I believe that at this moment, with the project in the situation it is, that this is neither the time, nor the place.
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You are miles out.
A cancer of defeatism !! Wake up !! They have issued redundancy notices and have run out of money, thats not my word, its theirs.
If the trustees don't provide the financial data to companies house for LAST YEAR how do you think we stand to get up to date information. What facts am I contradicting ? I would love you to be specific. As for every avitation forum I can find I think you will find I only ever posted on the TVOC own noticeboard and here. For 2 reasons, I hoped that they read their own website (which they seem to when it suits and not the rest of the time) and then they posted FAQ's in response to postings on PPRUNE and ignored their own web site. What other aviation web sites am I posting on ? The correct way to obtain facts is to ask the trustees and get the information given to you which so far they have failed to do in any sense, perhaps you can suggest how we get to see what the true financial position is, I would love to know, as they can't get their facts straight and consistently tell anyone what they need and by when.
As for opinions, its like TV, if you don't like them turn over.
If now isn't the time to question the management team and what is going on, tell me when is ?
A cancer of defeatism !! Wake up !! They have issued redundancy notices and have run out of money, thats not my word, its theirs.
If the trustees don't provide the financial data to companies house for LAST YEAR how do you think we stand to get up to date information. What facts am I contradicting ? I would love you to be specific. As for every avitation forum I can find I think you will find I only ever posted on the TVOC own noticeboard and here. For 2 reasons, I hoped that they read their own website (which they seem to when it suits and not the rest of the time) and then they posted FAQ's in response to postings on PPRUNE and ignored their own web site. What other aviation web sites am I posting on ? The correct way to obtain facts is to ask the trustees and get the information given to you which so far they have failed to do in any sense, perhaps you can suggest how we get to see what the true financial position is, I would love to know, as they can't get their facts straight and consistently tell anyone what they need and by when.
As for opinions, its like TV, if you don't like them turn over.
If now isn't the time to question the management team and what is going on, tell me when is ?
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Rocket,
Clearly you do not understand other peoples point of view here.
Mr Charlton, like everyone else, is entitled to his opinion and is clearly in the majority with his comments.
Nothing he has said is unfair or unwarranted, and in the main I agree entirely with him (and I am an ex Vulcan Operator myself) He has, and apparently is still, donating money to the project, so I think he has every right to question things and more importantly has the right to expect some answers!
I disagree completely on your point of "this is neither the time, nor the place" I believe strongly that now IS the time and the place to get some answers to the questions that people like Mr Charlton (and many others) are asking. Why do feel otherwise? And at what point would you be asking the questions, if at all?
The facts are non existant Rocket, and people are correct in not wanting throw good money after bad. Tim says its a quarter of a million £, Pleming says the same, their own web site says otherwise. Tim says that Pleming says, "things are not quite as bad" and yet their web site says otherwise, and the workers HAVE received redundancy notices.
Frankly, the project is a farce.
The Winco
Clearly you do not understand other peoples point of view here.
Mr Charlton, like everyone else, is entitled to his opinion and is clearly in the majority with his comments.
Nothing he has said is unfair or unwarranted, and in the main I agree entirely with him (and I am an ex Vulcan Operator myself) He has, and apparently is still, donating money to the project, so I think he has every right to question things and more importantly has the right to expect some answers!
I disagree completely on your point of "this is neither the time, nor the place" I believe strongly that now IS the time and the place to get some answers to the questions that people like Mr Charlton (and many others) are asking. Why do feel otherwise? And at what point would you be asking the questions, if at all?
The facts are non existant Rocket, and people are correct in not wanting throw good money after bad. Tim says its a quarter of a million £, Pleming says the same, their own web site says otherwise. Tim says that Pleming says, "things are not quite as bad" and yet their web site says otherwise, and the workers HAVE received redundancy notices.
Frankly, the project is a farce.
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Mr Charlton, Winco
your constant defeatist attitude is becomming extremely tedious.
Whilst I may agree, partly, with your views on the way the project has been run, I agree more with the sentiments expressed by Rocket.
If the project does receive an inject of cash, how about you go to Bruntingthorpe and put your money where your mouths are....show them how the project SHOULD be managed. If you are unwilling to do this, then be quiet and let those who are willing, do it
your constant defeatist attitude is becomming extremely tedious.
Whilst I may agree, partly, with your views on the way the project has been run, I agree more with the sentiments expressed by Rocket.
If the project does receive an inject of cash, how about you go to Bruntingthorpe and put your money where your mouths are....show them how the project SHOULD be managed. If you are unwilling to do this, then be quiet and let those who are willing, do it
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Ah yes the defeatist attitude which is solely based on reality.
I thought the idea was that the project was to be run by professionals like Pleming and Irwin who knew what they were doing ?
Forgive my foolish comments, I didn't think it could get more defeatist than redundancy notices, innaccurate information, no corporate sponsor and wildly varying forecasts.
I'm sure the trustees will tell us all about how things are going.
Would you like me to stop donating as well as having an opinion ?
I thought the idea was that the project was to be run by professionals like Pleming and Irwin who knew what they were doing ?
Forgive my foolish comments, I didn't think it could get more defeatist than redundancy notices, innaccurate information, no corporate sponsor and wildly varying forecasts.
I'm sure the trustees will tell us all about how things are going.
Would you like me to stop donating as well as having an opinion ?
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Originally Posted by andrewmcharlton
Ah yes the defeatist attitude which is solely based on reality.
I thought the idea was that the project was to be run by professionals like Pleming and Irwin who knew what they were doing ?
Forgive my foolish comments, I didn't think it could get more defeatist than redundancy notices, innaccurate information, no corporate sponsor and wildly varying forecasts.
I'm sure the trustees will tell us all about how things are going.
Would you like me to stop donating as well as having an opinion ?
I thought the idea was that the project was to be run by professionals like Pleming and Irwin who knew what they were doing ?
Forgive my foolish comments, I didn't think it could get more defeatist than redundancy notices, innaccurate information, no corporate sponsor and wildly varying forecasts.
I'm sure the trustees will tell us all about how things are going.
Would you like me to stop donating as well as having an opinion ?
