Vulcan to the Sky, The End? (Merged)
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Beagle & Tim,
I will walk around every into each Sqn crewroom at Marham, naked with a rose between my arse cheeks, singing a song of your choice if the Vulcan ever flies again.
The project is almost as badly as some of the tasks carried out on the BBC's 'The Apprentice'.
The 250k won't do anything other that keep the project milling over at its woefully slow pace.
There is very little commercial backing for the Vulcan(the killer blow IMHO).
Aircraft such as the B17 & Lancaster should and will always get the funding (if only just) as they contributed towards our freedom in such a way that the Vulcan does not come close to. The nuclear detterent was obviously an important aspect of the UK's cold war defence however, I don't think you can compare an a/c that held Nuclear QRA with an a/c that men died in over Germany IMHO.
The Black Buck missions were a great achievment however, there impact on the outcome of the conflict was arguably a minor one. This being the only actual combat the Vulcan participated in, I don't think it merits an endless supply of funding to get it flying for a year or two.
Perhaps any funding heading towards the Vulcan would be better suited for looking after our veterans.
I will walk around every into each Sqn crewroom at Marham, naked with a rose between my arse cheeks, singing a song of your choice if the Vulcan ever flies again.
The project is almost as badly as some of the tasks carried out on the BBC's 'The Apprentice'.
The 250k won't do anything other that keep the project milling over at its woefully slow pace.
There is very little commercial backing for the Vulcan(the killer blow IMHO).
Aircraft such as the B17 & Lancaster should and will always get the funding (if only just) as they contributed towards our freedom in such a way that the Vulcan does not come close to. The nuclear detterent was obviously an important aspect of the UK's cold war defence however, I don't think you can compare an a/c that held Nuclear QRA with an a/c that men died in over Germany IMHO.
The Black Buck missions were a great achievment however, there impact on the outcome of the conflict was arguably a minor one. This being the only actual combat the Vulcan participated in, I don't think it merits an endless supply of funding to get it flying for a year or two.
Perhaps any funding heading towards the Vulcan would be better suited for looking after our veterans.
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Tombstone,
I don't think you will have to break into song, but if you do, can Ibe first to make a request, perhaps Freebird by those illustious aviators Lynyrd Skynyrd would be good.
I don't think you will have to break into song, but if you do, can Ibe first to make a request, perhaps Freebird by those illustious aviators Lynyrd Skynyrd would be good.
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Originally Posted by brickhistory
Really?
From your post in "Vulcan Aircrew?" thread, dated 24 Mar 06:
".....I think you'll find that my prophecy is correct, as I wrote "The Vulcan Story" years ago, and it's still recognised as the best (and certainly biggest) book on the subject, even though it's showing its age now (and the reprinted edition was ghastly!). The new book will be more than twice the size of that book, so I think the odds on anyone else producing anything better, are virtually zero, and this is why I want the new book to be as good as possible.
Okay, some small publishers will undoubtedly turn-out "monographs" or similar books, but large publishing companies just don't touch this kind of subject any more (wish they did!), so I think it's fair to say that the new book will be as good as it gets."
Modest as well, I see................
From your post in "Vulcan Aircrew?" thread, dated 24 Mar 06:
".....I think you'll find that my prophecy is correct, as I wrote "The Vulcan Story" years ago, and it's still recognised as the best (and certainly biggest) book on the subject, even though it's showing its age now (and the reprinted edition was ghastly!). The new book will be more than twice the size of that book, so I think the odds on anyone else producing anything better, are virtually zero, and this is why I want the new book to be as good as possible.
Okay, some small publishers will undoubtedly turn-out "monographs" or similar books, but large publishing companies just don't touch this kind of subject any more (wish they did!), so I think it's fair to say that the new book will be as good as it gets."
Modest as well, I see................
Why do so many people seem to think these discussions are about trying to score points? Couldn't we just discuss this important project like adults?
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Originally Posted by danohagan
Tim,
Do you agree that the business plan for operating the Vulcan on the display circuit, as it stands, with or without the HLF, is totally unworkable? And TVOC have yet to show us otherwise?
Do you agree that the business plan for operating the Vulcan on the display circuit, as it stands, with or without the HLF, is totally unworkable? And TVOC have yet to show us otherwise?
My point (which I keep trying to hammer-home, but my God it's hard work!) is that we can get back to TVOC's actions, plans for the future and so on, after the current crisis is over. If the cash shortfall isn't covered, Dr Pleming is quite clear that the Trust have decided to wrap-up the project at the end of this month. If that happens, there's really not much point in arguing about the saga any longer as we'll be discussing a useless hulk of metal, permanently stuck in a Leicestershire field.
I know it's easy to say "ah hah, here we go again - next month they'll be after even more cash, blah blah" but as far as I can determine, this doesn't appear to be the case. The situation appears to be that once this hurdle is cleared, the aircraft can reach the test flight stage. I accept that there are no guarantees after that, but at least the project would have been completed, and if no sponsors then come forward, it really is the end of the matter. But at least we will have tried and we'll know for certain that projects of this nature just do not attract sufficient financial support. But who knows? Sponsors might well come forward when they can see what they're paying for. Or at the very worst, the aircraft might survive in another country. Either way, it's got to be better than allowing years of hard work and huge sums of money to be thrown-away at the last minute.
As I've said, there are no guarantees. The Vulcan's future might well be a short one but we've come so far... let's get the damned thing into the air and then we can start asking questions about the aircraft's future. If it doesn't fly it won't have a future, it's that simple.
Originally Posted by Tim McLelland
The situation appears to be that once this hurdle is cleared, the aircraft can reach the test flight stage.
Quite clearly, from VTS' own figures, it requires a further £1.2m to complete the rebuild and airtest it. Then a further £1.2m per season to operate.
So £2.4 million minimum by the end of next airshow season, say 13 months.
So what's the point of throwing another £250k into this black hole? Sorry, but it's just wasting more money on this untenable project. I repeat -
IT WILL COST A FURTHER £2.4M IN THE NEXT YEAR, BY VTS' OWN FIGURES.
Where do they think that the annual operating costs of £1.2m will come from? It will probably do a maximum of 10 shows or so per year, that means that they need to raise £120k for each appearance, more than the budget for bought-in display items for almost every show in the UK. It simply doesn't add up.
They admit that they've raised a total of only £40k in the last 3 months of the 'last chance' fundraising drive.
I feel sorry for those who have worked on a voluntary basis supporting this worthy dream for many years, and for those paid employees about to lose their jobs, but continuation of the project in the face of the vast funding gap that they're facing just makes no sense at all.
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Here we go again... we've done all this over and over again.
Next year is next year. We're slightly more concerned about the next two weeks right now!
You can argue the figures until the proverbial cows come home. Dr. Pleming says they will wind-up the project unless they get the 250K. That's straight from him so that's the way it is. Everything else, all the different quoted figures, who said what, who did what, blah blah blah... these are not facts, just contradictory information from various sources. I'm sure we will get the truth sooner or later but is this the time to be arguing about the project? As far as I can determine, 250K is the amount of cash which TVOC regards as a "shortfall" without which they cannot continue. It would appear that any additional money over this figure is cash that they already expect to raise through their usual activities. But whatever the reality, the clear message is that the project ends this month without that cash.
Clearly, whatever figures turn-out to be the truthful ones, the aircraft is going to eat-up more cash as time goes on. But there are just two options; one is to continue putting cash into the project so that it can finally fly. There is then the possibility of getting proper sponsorship, setting-up a new engineering and support team, and hopefully a new operating base that doesn't eat-up £15,000 per week! It's a long shot but unless XH558 flies, how will we ever know?
The alternative is to say that enough is enough and that nearly three million pounds should be effectively thrown away on an aircraft which will be permanently grounded at Bruntingthorpe. I doubt (and so does TVOC) if donations are going to help one way or the other at this late stage - I think the only possible practical solution is for the HLF to step-in and increase their input. They have to live with the decision as to whether they should risk any more cash, or accept yet more public criticism for throwing away even more millions on a project that was never finished.
Next year is next year. We're slightly more concerned about the next two weeks right now!
You can argue the figures until the proverbial cows come home. Dr. Pleming says they will wind-up the project unless they get the 250K. That's straight from him so that's the way it is. Everything else, all the different quoted figures, who said what, who did what, blah blah blah... these are not facts, just contradictory information from various sources. I'm sure we will get the truth sooner or later but is this the time to be arguing about the project? As far as I can determine, 250K is the amount of cash which TVOC regards as a "shortfall" without which they cannot continue. It would appear that any additional money over this figure is cash that they already expect to raise through their usual activities. But whatever the reality, the clear message is that the project ends this month without that cash.
Clearly, whatever figures turn-out to be the truthful ones, the aircraft is going to eat-up more cash as time goes on. But there are just two options; one is to continue putting cash into the project so that it can finally fly. There is then the possibility of getting proper sponsorship, setting-up a new engineering and support team, and hopefully a new operating base that doesn't eat-up £15,000 per week! It's a long shot but unless XH558 flies, how will we ever know?
The alternative is to say that enough is enough and that nearly three million pounds should be effectively thrown away on an aircraft which will be permanently grounded at Bruntingthorpe. I doubt (and so does TVOC) if donations are going to help one way or the other at this late stage - I think the only possible practical solution is for the HLF to step-in and increase their input. They have to live with the decision as to whether they should risk any more cash, or accept yet more public criticism for throwing away even more millions on a project that was never finished.
Last edited by Tim McLelland; 8th Aug 2006 at 00:51.
Then I guess we'll have to agree to differ, then.
There are those of us who say "There's no viable way of funding the project, either in the short or long term, so enough is enough."
Then there are those who say "Let's not worry about the future viability, but let's just chuck another £250k at it regardless to keep it alive in the (very) short term in the hope of a miracle."
There are those of us who say "There's no viable way of funding the project, either in the short or long term, so enough is enough."
Then there are those who say "Let's not worry about the future viability, but let's just chuck another £250k at it regardless to keep it alive in the (very) short term in the hope of a miracle."
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Tim,
Perhaps on reflection you may be right, but
1. We have all heard it before...oh just another ££££££
2. It appears that you know more about it than most of us do, and yet you won't divilge it.
3. You have not answered any questions put you, not even the one about 'what happens next month?'
4. As even you agree, TVOC are being less than forthcoming, why is that?
5. It appears that TVOC are doing little (if anything) to sort out this mess
6. Most of us are getting bored with it.
Without serious answers to serious questions, you are not going to change the minds of those of us who don't think it will happen now.
TSM
Perhaps on reflection you may be right, but
1. We have all heard it before...oh just another ££££££
2. It appears that you know more about it than most of us do, and yet you won't divilge it.
3. You have not answered any questions put you, not even the one about 'what happens next month?'
4. As even you agree, TVOC are being less than forthcoming, why is that?
5. It appears that TVOC are doing little (if anything) to sort out this mess
6. Most of us are getting bored with it.
Without serious answers to serious questions, you are not going to change the minds of those of us who don't think it will happen now.
TSM
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Tim,
Where has the blind optomism come from ? The strength of one email from the prviusly ever present Dr ?
Throwing money into this now without adequate planning, transparency and a realistic prospect of success (decide what that is for yourself but it isn't making one flight for me) is simply a false dawn and a waste of cash.
Banging on at the HLF I think will do no good. Look at the big picture. Can they afford to either create a precedent of bailing out plans that go pear shaped AND not giving that money to someone who has got a plan AND a real chance of sucess.
I for one would love it to fly, love to be proved wrong etc, I will join my illustrious fellow poster in singing around the peri track naked if it flies. But in my heart of hearts, I would rather the lottery gave £250k to help someone cure a curable disease or help some disabled kids enjoy another Christmas than line the pockets of the trustees, the friends or consultants.
I hope it can be saved as much for the payment of salaries to those who have worked at the coal face for so long with so little attention unlike the illustrious leader who by all accounts is working from a control bunker (Gite) in the south (France) for safety.
Where has the blind optomism come from ? The strength of one email from the prviusly ever present Dr ?
Throwing money into this now without adequate planning, transparency and a realistic prospect of success (decide what that is for yourself but it isn't making one flight for me) is simply a false dawn and a waste of cash.
Banging on at the HLF I think will do no good. Look at the big picture. Can they afford to either create a precedent of bailing out plans that go pear shaped AND not giving that money to someone who has got a plan AND a real chance of sucess.
I for one would love it to fly, love to be proved wrong etc, I will join my illustrious fellow poster in singing around the peri track naked if it flies. But in my heart of hearts, I would rather the lottery gave £250k to help someone cure a curable disease or help some disabled kids enjoy another Christmas than line the pockets of the trustees, the friends or consultants.
I hope it can be saved as much for the payment of salaries to those who have worked at the coal face for so long with so little attention unlike the illustrious leader who by all accounts is working from a control bunker (Gite) in the south (France) for safety.
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Originally Posted by The Swinging Monkey
Tim,
Perhaps on reflection you may be right, but
1. We have all heard it before...oh just another ££££££
2. It appears that you know more about it than most of us do, and yet you won't divilge it.
3. You have not answered any questions put you, not even the one about 'what happens next month?'
4. As even you agree, TVOC are being less than forthcoming, why is that?
5. It appears that TVOC are doing little (if anything) to sort out this mess
6. Most of us are getting bored with it.
Without serious answers to serious questions, you are not going to change the minds of those of us who don't think it will happen now.
TSM
Perhaps on reflection you may be right, but
1. We have all heard it before...oh just another ££££££
2. It appears that you know more about it than most of us do, and yet you won't divilge it.
3. You have not answered any questions put you, not even the one about 'what happens next month?'
4. As even you agree, TVOC are being less than forthcoming, why is that?
5. It appears that TVOC are doing little (if anything) to sort out this mess
6. Most of us are getting bored with it.
Without serious answers to serious questions, you are not going to change the minds of those of us who don't think it will happen now.
TSM
I can't answer you as to what happens next month - there are lots of possibilities and TVOC say they don't rule anything out. But right now it's an academic matter if the project is stopped.
I don't know how much or how little TVOC are doing. From my viewpoint (and probably yours) I don't think they're doing much at all, but as I keep saying, this isn't the time to be asking, as it's a little too late.
As for changing minds, that's not my concern. I merely hoped that my input might encourage people to lobby their Lottery people, as it would seem that the only practical way of keeping this project alive until the flight stage, is with more help from the HLF.
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[QUOTE=andrewmcharlton]Tim,
Where has the blind optomism come from ? The strength of one email from the prviusly ever present Dr ?
No blind optimisim, but more than one email. I couldn't be accused of optimism as I'm as saddened by this saga as anyone else. I just think it's worth trying to get the Lottery to help, otherwise the project is dead, and dead forever in all probability.
Throwing money into this now without adequate planning, transparency and a realistic prospect of success (decide what that is for yourself but it isn't making one flight for me) is simply a false dawn and a waste of cash.
Maybe so but what's the alternative? Allow 2.7 million quid and countless man-hours of work to be thrown away?
Banging on at the HLF I think will do no good. Look at the big picture. Can they afford to either create a precedent of bailing out plans that go pear shaped AND not giving that money to someone who has got a plan AND a real chance of sucess.
No, that's my point entirely. HLF can ensure that this project is a success by giving TVOC some more cash. If they don't, they stand accused of intentionally wasting more millions.
I for one would love it to fly, love to be proved wrong etc, I will join my illustrious fellow poster in singing around the peri track naked if it flies. But in my heart of hearts, I would rather the lottery gave £250k to help someone cure a curable disease or help some disabled kids enjoy another Christmas than line the pockets of the trustees, the friends or consultants.
So do I, but as we know, Lottery money rarely goes on anything useful like health - it gets thrown at art projects, and other "life-enhancing" causes. So why should we be reluctant to demand that HLF give some of our Lottery money to the Vulcan project?
I hope it can be saved as much for the payment of salaries to those who have worked at the coal face for so long with so little attention unlike the illustrious leader who by all accounts is working from a control bunker (Gite) in the south (France) for safety
Nice sentiments, but I'd rather the workers not be laid-off and that they be permitted to finish what is already nearly 80 percent complete. I'm sure if you ask them, you'd find that this is what they want to do, regardless of the rights or wrongs of TVOC's management.
As for Pleming, he's not in France, he's in hospital.
Where has the blind optomism come from ? The strength of one email from the prviusly ever present Dr ?
No blind optimisim, but more than one email. I couldn't be accused of optimism as I'm as saddened by this saga as anyone else. I just think it's worth trying to get the Lottery to help, otherwise the project is dead, and dead forever in all probability.
Throwing money into this now without adequate planning, transparency and a realistic prospect of success (decide what that is for yourself but it isn't making one flight for me) is simply a false dawn and a waste of cash.
Maybe so but what's the alternative? Allow 2.7 million quid and countless man-hours of work to be thrown away?
Banging on at the HLF I think will do no good. Look at the big picture. Can they afford to either create a precedent of bailing out plans that go pear shaped AND not giving that money to someone who has got a plan AND a real chance of sucess.
No, that's my point entirely. HLF can ensure that this project is a success by giving TVOC some more cash. If they don't, they stand accused of intentionally wasting more millions.
I for one would love it to fly, love to be proved wrong etc, I will join my illustrious fellow poster in singing around the peri track naked if it flies. But in my heart of hearts, I would rather the lottery gave £250k to help someone cure a curable disease or help some disabled kids enjoy another Christmas than line the pockets of the trustees, the friends or consultants.
So do I, but as we know, Lottery money rarely goes on anything useful like health - it gets thrown at art projects, and other "life-enhancing" causes. So why should we be reluctant to demand that HLF give some of our Lottery money to the Vulcan project?
I hope it can be saved as much for the payment of salaries to those who have worked at the coal face for so long with so little attention unlike the illustrious leader who by all accounts is working from a control bunker (Gite) in the south (France) for safety
Nice sentiments, but I'd rather the workers not be laid-off and that they be permitted to finish what is already nearly 80 percent complete. I'm sure if you ask them, you'd find that this is what they want to do, regardless of the rights or wrongs of TVOC's management.
As for Pleming, he's not in France, he's in hospital.
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Originally Posted by Tim McLelland
I don't know more about the project, I'm just basing my thoughts on the communications I've had, that's all.
I can't answer you as to what happens next month - there are lots of possibilities and TVOC say they don't rule anything out. But right now it's an academic matter if the project is stopped.
I don't know how much or how little TVOC are doing. From my viewpoint (and probably yours) I don't think they're doing much at all, but as I keep saying, this isn't the time to be asking, as it's a little too late.
As for changing minds, that's not my concern. I merely hoped that my input might encourage people to lobby their Lottery people, as it would seem that the only practical way of keeping this project alive until the flight stage, is with more help from the HLF.
I can't answer you as to what happens next month - there are lots of possibilities and TVOC say they don't rule anything out. But right now it's an academic matter if the project is stopped.
I don't know how much or how little TVOC are doing. From my viewpoint (and probably yours) I don't think they're doing much at all, but as I keep saying, this isn't the time to be asking, as it's a little too late.
As for changing minds, that's not my concern. I merely hoped that my input might encourage people to lobby their Lottery people, as it would seem that the only practical way of keeping this project alive until the flight stage, is with more help from the HLF.
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Tim,
I was referring to Felicity not Dr Pleming.
The HLF will not set a precedent, face it. Its not their fault that the money has evaporated and its all well and good saying they should give more cash etc, but then like all the other arguments, you'll need to use it again next month when there is unsufficient cash.
In simplistic terms, an airworthy V flew in to Bruntingthorpe and an 80% (at best) one can't fly out despite everyones best endeavours.
I was referring to Felicity not Dr Pleming.
The HLF will not set a precedent, face it. Its not their fault that the money has evaporated and its all well and good saying they should give more cash etc, but then like all the other arguments, you'll need to use it again next month when there is unsufficient cash.
In simplistic terms, an airworthy V flew in to Bruntingthorpe and an 80% (at best) one can't fly out despite everyones best endeavours.
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Originally Posted by andrewmcharlton
Tim,
I for one would love it to fly, love to be proved wrong etc, I will join my illustrious fellow poster in singing around the peri track naked if it flies.
I for one would love it to fly, love to be proved wrong etc, I will join my illustrious fellow poster in singing around the peri track naked if it flies.
Just a thought - I'll get my coat!
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What a fine idea !
Either that or I am hoping to renovate my garden incinerator as an Apollo rocket. I have lots of bits of scrap and I'm happy to form a trust fund and sell my services to it as well as generously provide space in my shed (at a modest rent), I will be relaxing, err planning the project, from my new Tahitian launch pad facility however.
Either that or I am hoping to renovate my garden incinerator as an Apollo rocket. I have lots of bits of scrap and I'm happy to form a trust fund and sell my services to it as well as generously provide space in my shed (at a modest rent), I will be relaxing, err planning the project, from my new Tahitian launch pad facility however.
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Andrew
you are misguided, Sir.
You are correct in your post that an airworthy V flew into Brunty. But, as soon as its wheels stopped, it was no longer airworthy! It was operating on a 6 FI extension, of which, 3.6 had already been used.
you are misguided, Sir.
You are correct in your post that an airworthy V flew into Brunty. But, as soon as its wheels stopped, it was no longer airworthy! It was operating on a 6 FI extension, of which, 3.6 had already been used.