Vulcan to the Sky, The End? (Merged)
The Vulcan will fly again! Of that I am sure.
However, for just how long will depend upon the financial position - a major sponsor is really needed.
Time to stop the usual British whingeing and show positive support for once. Next year is the 25th anniversary of the Malvinas ar$e-kicking and 558 should surely participate.
Bit of a bugger if they invaded again, now that we have no Vulcans and nor radar-equipped naval fighters.
However, for just how long will depend upon the financial position - a major sponsor is really needed.
Time to stop the usual British whingeing and show positive support for once. Next year is the 25th anniversary of the Malvinas ar$e-kicking and 558 should surely participate.
Bit of a bugger if they invaded again, now that we have no Vulcans and nor radar-equipped naval fighters.
Hellbound
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Beags
I suppose the problem is that most people (like me) just cannot get sentimental over an old aircraft that they never flew and never actually did very much apart from represent a capability that (fortunately) was never needed. I would much rather give my spare cash to other, more worthy causes. Doesn't mean that it wouldn't be nice if someone could chip in a million or 2 to get it flying again as I am sure it would look impressive, but asking normal folks to support an enormously expensive toy might be a step too far.
As for what would happen if there was another invasion, I suppose that is why we still keep a garrison of (p
d-off ) troops down there as a deterrent...
I suppose the problem is that most people (like me) just cannot get sentimental over an old aircraft that they never flew and never actually did very much apart from represent a capability that (fortunately) was never needed. I would much rather give my spare cash to other, more worthy causes. Doesn't mean that it wouldn't be nice if someone could chip in a million or 2 to get it flying again as I am sure it would look impressive, but asking normal folks to support an enormously expensive toy might be a step too far.
As for what would happen if there was another invasion, I suppose that is why we still keep a garrison of (p
d-off ) troops down there as a deterrent...
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BEagle,
I very much hope you are correct, please believe me. The thing is, the record is wearing out about how much (more) they keep needing. I'm afraid that disclosures about Dr Pleming give serious cause for concern amongst myself and, I suspect, a great many others. If he were in industry, then I would suggest that he might well have been sacked for so many oversights and errors etc.
I wish I still retained your confidence in the ultimate outcome, but sadly I don't anymore. I now see it as a Big White Elephant, that is just consuming vast amounts of money, with little (if any) progress being made. Surely, now is the time to call a halt, and put her back together to be dispayed as a static. The patient is on her last legs, and should be allowed to rest in peace.
Kind regards to all
TSM
I very much hope you are correct, please believe me. The thing is, the record is wearing out about how much (more) they keep needing. I'm afraid that disclosures about Dr Pleming give serious cause for concern amongst myself and, I suspect, a great many others. If he were in industry, then I would suggest that he might well have been sacked for so many oversights and errors etc.
I wish I still retained your confidence in the ultimate outcome, but sadly I don't anymore. I now see it as a Big White Elephant, that is just consuming vast amounts of money, with little (if any) progress being made. Surely, now is the time to call a halt, and put her back together to be dispayed as a static. The patient is on her last legs, and should be allowed to rest in peace.
Kind regards to all
TSM
The 'patient' is being restored to airworthy condition. The only other Vulcan in anything close to the same condition is 655 at nearby Wellesbourne Mountford. This is worked on every Saturday; last weekend's engine runs and system checks showed that all is ready for a high speed taxy run the weekend after next. The only minor snags were the standby rudder PFCU contactor (being fixed) and a reluctance for the No 4 alternator to come on line (would need a gennie set up and balance - expensive in fuel and time even if a balancer box is available).
Hopefully the roll-out of 558 in August 2006 will be the catalyst for a major sponsor to come forward....
Hopefully the roll-out of 558 in August 2006 will be the catalyst for a major sponsor to come forward....
Cunning Artificer
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...and never actually did very much apart from represent a capability that (fortunately) was never needed.
The old girl had more than earned her keep when she was pressed into service in the South Atlantic. The idea that the 'V' force sat idly doing nothing much for the preceding 25 years is a fallacy.
Winco and Swinging Monkey
We seem to have got into another ongoing banging heads against a wall situation. How can I persuade you that Rob Pleming’s niceness or otherwise has nothing, zilch, da nada to do with his suitability for this job? Yes, I’m a friend - and yes, surprise surprise, I think he’s a very nice bloke. But that is totally irrelevant to this discussion. That was why I didn’t mention anything about niceness. I only mentioned my friendship because I make little attempt to conceal my identity in PPRuNe, and I believe in being upfront about where I’m coming from. After all, it was you that brought up the subject of niceness, not me, and, despite its total irrelevance, we seem to have backed ourselves into a slanging match cul de sac. So, yes I think he’s nice, and no, it’s not important. Does that close the matter for you?
What is important is the VTTS project. Let me offer a little tour de l’horizon, in that wonderfully stuffy staff phrase. Forgive me if I’m telling you things you know. The funding for the restoration and operation of many historical aircraft in this country comes from a few rich individuals. Then there are the collections like Shuttleworth and Air Atlantique Classic Flight. And,of course, there are some syndicates, and a few plucky individuals. (Plus, of course, the Battle of Britain Memorial Flight and B-17 Preservation.) I firmly believe we should be immensely grateful to all of them. But even the most well-funded individual or collection would baulk at the expense of getting a Vulcan flying - lots have thought about it, some have tried, but no one could get anywhere near the amounts of money involved. The only way was to do it professionally, as a business, with a serious business plan. The Heritage Lottery Fund had to be involved - and, as I said, until VTTS, they had refused to fund anything that moved. They also required a serious business plan as evidence of suitability - and that plan had to include all the big industry organisations like BAES, Marshalls and many others. So there was no way this was going to be done like many other restorations, with mostly volunteer work, on a largely ad-hoc basis. This project needed a seriously professional business at its core. Seriously professional businesses cost money to run, although you can mitigate the costs with lots of voluntary work and also sacrifices on the part of the workers who are being paid. There are also lots of incidental expenses, such as travelling to meetings with officials, representing the cause in person at all manner of venues, many of which happen at weekends, and other, sometimes.far flung, requirements for someone to travel.
And despite all of this huge effort - the project could still fail. That this could be due to some failings in the conduct of the business is also possible. But never forget that these people are the ones who stepped forward to take up this immense challenge, when others had fallen by the wayside. We are where we are - I believe that now is the time for one last great effort to make sure that 558 really does get airborne this year.
I’ll be away working at an air show this weekend. I’ll be suggesting, as I did two weeks ago, to the thousands in the audience that this time next year we might actually see that great aluminium overcast fly and feel our chests vibrate to the thunder of four Olympus. I believe it’s worth hanging in there.
airsound
We seem to have got into another ongoing banging heads against a wall situation. How can I persuade you that Rob Pleming’s niceness or otherwise has nothing, zilch, da nada to do with his suitability for this job? Yes, I’m a friend - and yes, surprise surprise, I think he’s a very nice bloke. But that is totally irrelevant to this discussion. That was why I didn’t mention anything about niceness. I only mentioned my friendship because I make little attempt to conceal my identity in PPRuNe, and I believe in being upfront about where I’m coming from. After all, it was you that brought up the subject of niceness, not me, and, despite its total irrelevance, we seem to have backed ourselves into a slanging match cul de sac. So, yes I think he’s nice, and no, it’s not important. Does that close the matter for you?
What is important is the VTTS project. Let me offer a little tour de l’horizon, in that wonderfully stuffy staff phrase. Forgive me if I’m telling you things you know. The funding for the restoration and operation of many historical aircraft in this country comes from a few rich individuals. Then there are the collections like Shuttleworth and Air Atlantique Classic Flight. And,of course, there are some syndicates, and a few plucky individuals. (Plus, of course, the Battle of Britain Memorial Flight and B-17 Preservation.) I firmly believe we should be immensely grateful to all of them. But even the most well-funded individual or collection would baulk at the expense of getting a Vulcan flying - lots have thought about it, some have tried, but no one could get anywhere near the amounts of money involved. The only way was to do it professionally, as a business, with a serious business plan. The Heritage Lottery Fund had to be involved - and, as I said, until VTTS, they had refused to fund anything that moved. They also required a serious business plan as evidence of suitability - and that plan had to include all the big industry organisations like BAES, Marshalls and many others. So there was no way this was going to be done like many other restorations, with mostly volunteer work, on a largely ad-hoc basis. This project needed a seriously professional business at its core. Seriously professional businesses cost money to run, although you can mitigate the costs with lots of voluntary work and also sacrifices on the part of the workers who are being paid. There are also lots of incidental expenses, such as travelling to meetings with officials, representing the cause in person at all manner of venues, many of which happen at weekends, and other, sometimes.far flung, requirements for someone to travel.
And despite all of this huge effort - the project could still fail. That this could be due to some failings in the conduct of the business is also possible. But never forget that these people are the ones who stepped forward to take up this immense challenge, when others had fallen by the wayside. We are where we are - I believe that now is the time for one last great effort to make sure that 558 really does get airborne this year.
I’ll be away working at an air show this weekend. I’ll be suggesting, as I did two weeks ago, to the thousands in the audience that this time next year we might actually see that great aluminium overcast fly and feel our chests vibrate to the thunder of four Olympus. I believe it’s worth hanging in there.
airsound
Hellbound
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Blacksheep
agree that the policy was successful, no question. Just wonder if we would look so fondly on the aircraft of the BBMF if there had been no BoB... Wonderful flying machines, yes, extremely capable, yes, but what did the Vulcan actually do except exist? I know the Vulcan-experienced aircrew are spinning mad about comments like this, but I was offering a perspective on why people should not expect everyone else to hold the aircraft on some mystical pedestal and back that up with their cash. Your toy, you pay for it, I just think my money is better off sent to Sport Relief to help those kids in India....
agree that the policy was successful, no question. Just wonder if we would look so fondly on the aircraft of the BBMF if there had been no BoB... Wonderful flying machines, yes, extremely capable, yes, but what did the Vulcan actually do except exist? I know the Vulcan-experienced aircrew are spinning mad about comments like this, but I was offering a perspective on why people should not expect everyone else to hold the aircraft on some mystical pedestal and back that up with their cash. Your toy, you pay for it, I just think my money is better off sent to Sport Relief to help those kids in India....
Originally Posted by South Bound
Your toy, you pay for it, I just think my money is better off sent to Sport Relief to help those kids in India....
Hmmm.....that's far less credible than the VTTS project
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
South Bound,
Your argument is sound, to a point. You may extend it to all other cold war hardware too. Lets go for austerity, bin everything to do with the past where we could spend our money on ourselves.
The mark of a developed country is the ability to pay for things that do not contribute to the economic prosperity of the country - English Nature, English Heritage, the Sports Council, the Arts Council, Muesums in general, air shows, regattas, Cowes, and so on and so on.
Let us go for a reduced carbon footprint, remove all these spurious attractions and the incentive for people to travel and create carbon emissions.
The whole raison d'etre of the V-Force was as a force in being and that applied to all the naval hardware too. What good did the Sea Vixen, Scimitar, Buccanneer etc do? The whol epoint of military hardware is not to use it. Once you start a war the costs escalate exponentially as the kit has then to be made to work - Shrike on Vulcans, AAR on Nimrod and C130 etc.
Your argument is sound, to a point. You may extend it to all other cold war hardware too. Lets go for austerity, bin everything to do with the past where we could spend our money on ourselves.
The mark of a developed country is the ability to pay for things that do not contribute to the economic prosperity of the country - English Nature, English Heritage, the Sports Council, the Arts Council, Muesums in general, air shows, regattas, Cowes, and so on and so on.
Let us go for a reduced carbon footprint, remove all these spurious attractions and the incentive for people to travel and create carbon emissions.
The whole raison d'etre of the V-Force was as a force in being and that applied to all the naval hardware too. What good did the Sea Vixen, Scimitar, Buccanneer etc do? The whol epoint of military hardware is not to use it. Once you start a war the costs escalate exponentially as the kit has then to be made to work - Shrike on Vulcans, AAR on Nimrod and C130 etc.
IMHO,
If charities were a loss-maker, no-one would be doing it. There is loads of money to be made from charities and charitable scams. There are very few non-profit making charities as they are all out to make as much money as possible. (and I don’t disagree with that.)
I believe Professionals must be paid for their services in many technical fields – otherwise they may be later accused of Bias in the way they assess, approve or complete, work they do. I believe this is correct, morally and legally.
VTS does not appear to be a profit-making charity and, I am sure, many of its volunteers are genuine volunteers. I am also sure that some will take what they can out of the whole job. For many that will be the experience, and the joy, of working on something they like to work on. I did four years of work on just such a thing, and I took that experience to getting a new qualification, which has set me up for my chosen post-RAF career.
I don’t know what any VTS consultants do, but some should be paid for their costs and expertise. For many “consultants” involved in non-profit making charities, the pay they require is far less than their normal rates. Some, however, are not part of the Charity and are formally contracted to complete a task, or provide a service. Aircraft/Airworthiness Assessors and (bleedin') Accountants come to mind (there is a serious amount of money here). These must all be done at commercial rates and normally with full visibility of their account(s) and services.
Knowing the above, I too, would wonder what some VTS consultants are, and what they do, for their money.
If charities were a loss-maker, no-one would be doing it. There is loads of money to be made from charities and charitable scams. There are very few non-profit making charities as they are all out to make as much money as possible. (and I don’t disagree with that.)
I believe Professionals must be paid for their services in many technical fields – otherwise they may be later accused of Bias in the way they assess, approve or complete, work they do. I believe this is correct, morally and legally.
VTS does not appear to be a profit-making charity and, I am sure, many of its volunteers are genuine volunteers. I am also sure that some will take what they can out of the whole job. For many that will be the experience, and the joy, of working on something they like to work on. I did four years of work on just such a thing, and I took that experience to getting a new qualification, which has set me up for my chosen post-RAF career.
I don’t know what any VTS consultants do, but some should be paid for their costs and expertise. For many “consultants” involved in non-profit making charities, the pay they require is far less than their normal rates. Some, however, are not part of the Charity and are formally contracted to complete a task, or provide a service. Aircraft/Airworthiness Assessors and (bleedin') Accountants come to mind (there is a serious amount of money here). These must all be done at commercial rates and normally with full visibility of their account(s) and services.
Knowing the above, I too, would wonder what some VTS consultants are, and what they do, for their money.
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airsound,
I will also be going to Cosford this weekend, and I'll be listening to your commentary with interest. I take it that you will NOT be announcing to the public tho' that a good portion of their donation(s) will be going to the good Dr??
kind regards to all
TSM
I will also be going to Cosford this weekend, and I'll be listening to your commentary with interest. I take it that you will NOT be announcing to the public tho' that a good portion of their donation(s) will be going to the good Dr??
kind regards to all
TSM
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GeeRam,
Actually, I tend to agree with southbound on this point after watching the TV for the last 2 nights and the plight of the kids in India.
I'm not usually a sentimental type of chap, but I made a rough calculation of how much cash I've given to the project and then realised how much that would have done for the kids.
It just pi$$es me off more than you can imagine when I realise that I have been lining the pockets of certain people.
The Winco
Actually, I tend to agree with southbound on this point after watching the TV for the last 2 nights and the plight of the kids in India.
I'm not usually a sentimental type of chap, but I made a rough calculation of how much cash I've given to the project and then realised how much that would have done for the kids.
It just pi$$es me off more than you can imagine when I realise that I have been lining the pockets of certain people.
The Winco
Hellbound
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Yep, standard of cricket not great and completely overshadowed by the pics of the kids sleeping on the railway platforms. Nearly blubbed, having kids must have made me soft!
Back onto thread - I will pay to see it when it is up and running, I won't pay on the off-chance that it might work one day.
Back onto thread - I will pay to see it when it is up and running, I won't pay on the off-chance that it might work one day.
Go and see the wealth in India. Then ask why there's such a disparity between the enormously wealthy and the very poor......
It's not like some god-forsaken part of Africa, it's an advanced industrial nation with some exceptionally talented people. But there's a huge gulf between rich and poor which India itself needs to face up to.
It's not like some god-forsaken part of Africa, it's an advanced industrial nation with some exceptionally talented people. But there's a huge gulf between rich and poor which India itself needs to face up to.
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Here here BEagle - same with China. Enough mullah for nukes and launching people into space yet you read misguided idiot groups calling for funding to feed the poor. Should be calls for funding to overthrow the powers that be. These Govts are laughing all the way to the bank because they see the west as saps.
To not have a flying Vulcan is a loss to British history and more importantly a missed opportunity for the inspiration to the youth of today and tomorrow. It is a part of British culture for all the reasons above as is HMS Victory etc.
The challange is to make it work. Lessons can be learned from the EAA or Kermit Weeks in the US. Perhaps they could be the saviours even if it risks the loss of an airworthy Vulcan from UK shores. If it were to go as a flying exhibit I would welcome this rather than have the continued committe based type of bickering that is becoming more and more representative of British behaviour these days.
Sorry - rant off.
To not have a flying Vulcan is a loss to British history and more importantly a missed opportunity for the inspiration to the youth of today and tomorrow. It is a part of British culture for all the reasons above as is HMS Victory etc.
The challange is to make it work. Lessons can be learned from the EAA or Kermit Weeks in the US. Perhaps they could be the saviours even if it risks the loss of an airworthy Vulcan from UK shores. If it were to go as a flying exhibit I would welcome this rather than have the continued committe based type of bickering that is becoming more and more representative of British behaviour these days.
Sorry - rant off.
Hellbound
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Beags
unfortunately you are right, but India was only a topical example.
Turning your logic around, we are a fairly wealthy nation, yet we rely on charities such as the NSPCC and Children in Need to provide and protect our own deprived kids and our hospitals would cease to function (well sort of) without charitable donations. There is a fair old rich/poor gap here too.
Like I said before, I do hope someone finds the money, but not at the expense of more worthwhile causes. Good luck anyway.
unfortunately you are right, but India was only a topical example.
Turning your logic around, we are a fairly wealthy nation, yet we rely on charities such as the NSPCC and Children in Need to provide and protect our own deprived kids and our hospitals would cease to function (well sort of) without charitable donations. There is a fair old rich/poor gap here too.
Like I said before, I do hope someone finds the money, but not at the expense of more worthwhile causes. Good luck anyway.
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Having spent the better part of my adult life defending the ideals of our society (democracy, capitalism (well at least, not Communism), individual success etc), I feel entitled to enjoy some of them.
I dont see the need to fund backwaters of humanity from the more successful nations. Did they help us in the dim and distant past, as we built our success? In some cases they did, by allowing us to build an empire on their lands (or failed to prevent us from so doing). In return, we gave them sanitation, a degree of law and order, economic systems, sustainable farming etc. Ultimately, we built separate nations that now flourish under the Commonwealth, as Independent states. If they didnt want, or couldn't cope with independence, then why ask for it? Take Rhodesia as an example, and look at it now.
Now if I choose to spend my money on restoring something that kept me safe in the years of my infancy, as did XH558, then it is my prerogative. A very worthy cause. In fact, XH558 displayed in 1992 at the disbandment of my (Army) squadron at Brize. I'd seen the Vulcan display before, but to overfly our parade was an honour. The great bird came to pay its respects to 244 Signal Squadron (Air Support). I can still see the cavernous bomb bay, feel the vibration from the Olympii, and hear the deafening sound of freedom. Made the Conways at Brize seem like kazoos.
So, bring on the return to flight of XH558. Back in the Royal Air Force, if necessary.
I dont see the need to fund backwaters of humanity from the more successful nations. Did they help us in the dim and distant past, as we built our success? In some cases they did, by allowing us to build an empire on their lands (or failed to prevent us from so doing). In return, we gave them sanitation, a degree of law and order, economic systems, sustainable farming etc. Ultimately, we built separate nations that now flourish under the Commonwealth, as Independent states. If they didnt want, or couldn't cope with independence, then why ask for it? Take Rhodesia as an example, and look at it now.
Now if I choose to spend my money on restoring something that kept me safe in the years of my infancy, as did XH558, then it is my prerogative. A very worthy cause. In fact, XH558 displayed in 1992 at the disbandment of my (Army) squadron at Brize. I'd seen the Vulcan display before, but to overfly our parade was an honour. The great bird came to pay its respects to 244 Signal Squadron (Air Support). I can still see the cavernous bomb bay, feel the vibration from the Olympii, and hear the deafening sound of freedom. Made the Conways at Brize seem like kazoos.
So, bring on the return to flight of XH558. Back in the Royal Air Force, if necessary.
Hellbound
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Roadster
agreed, absolutely your choice. No need to get quite so frantic with the Indian example though, although I do kinda wonder if the legacy we left for them created that rich/poor divide discussed above!
Butting out now, let you all get back onto the main thread...
agreed, absolutely your choice. No need to get quite so frantic with the Indian example though, although I do kinda wonder if the legacy we left for them created that rich/poor divide discussed above!
Butting out now, let you all get back onto the main thread...