Vulcan to the Sky, The End? (Merged)

[andrewmcharlton]

South Bound,

I think in most commercial and private arrangements nobody would argue with you, but as its a charitable trust there are arguements for disclosure.

[South Bound]

Unfortunately, when charities go to commercial organisations and ask them to quote for a job and subsequently accept that quote, it is grossly unfair for everyone to jump up and down about it later claiming that the price should be lowered because of the charity status. I am not saying that the price is or is not reasonable, just that someone accepted that price and it is their responsibility to find the money.

[flipflopman RB199]

Thanks once again for your overwhelmingly constructive input, The Swinging Monkey.

I would try and see things from your point of view, but I don't think my head would fit up your a****ole too.


andrewmcharlton,

The issue was, where are we really at ? What has / hasn't been done ? What are the reallistic prospects of success

Can I suggest a visit to Brunty? There is a hangar full of engineers there who would be delighted to fill you in on the current status of the aircraft, what has been done, and what is left to do. It would also allow you to see for yourself, the aircraft state and work completed, and also give you more information with which to base your posts, and possibly a little more faith


Flipflopman

[Tim McLelland]

Originally Posted by The Swinging Monkey

Tim
I think here lies our answer, and hopefully yours also...........
"some has been raised but the Trust also has creditors so without going into minute details we have continued with the 'worst case'' scenario by stating that £250,000 is needed before the end of the month. If we introduce more figures we shall simply add to the confusion. Well, that is how we see it. I hope you agree.The fact is that £250,000 alone will not restart the project, it needs the full £1M to be given or pledged for it to be able to go forward"
The fact that ANOTHER quarter of a million will NOT restart this project should be pretty clear, even to you Sir, that this is all but finished.
As FI says, "it needs the full £1M to be given or pledged for it to be able to go forward"[/ and that aint gonner happen!!
Kind regards
TSM

Although she's not saying anything that we didn't already know, thery're in the usual state of confusion it seems. Patently, the 250K will allow the project to continue - that's the whole point. It won't get the aircraft to flight status, but Pleming seems confident that the rest of the money can be found. As ever, you get at least four different versions of the same story, depending on where it comes from. But as I say, it's pointless to waste time on this aspect of the story right now, as without the 250k the project will stop in any case.

[Winco]

Flipflopman,

For christ's sake man, grow up and stop displaying your ignorance by making abusive comments to those who do not agree with you.

The comments made by the Monkey chap were NOT constructive, but they did show that this project does NOT need a quarter of a million as believed by Tim and others, but needs £1,000,000 to proceed.

There is nothing ambiguous about Ms Irwins comments, it is there in very simple black and white for all to read, and unless the project gets its £1m, then it is NOT going anywhere (unless of course, she has got it wrong, in which case.......)

Now, on the basis of that comment from the TVOC spkesperson, do you still think its worth throwing more money at it until we have a definitive plan?? I still think not Sir.

As for fitting your head up anyones backside, remember one thing........you have got to get it out of your own first!

The Winco

[The Swinging Monkey]

Tim,
Am I really the only one here misreading what FI says, or do you know something that the rest of us don't?

She says 'The fact is that £250,000 alone will not restart the project, it needs the full £1M to be given or pledged for it to be able to go forward'

You say 'the 250K will allow the project to continue'

Which one of you is correct Tim? is it you or is it FI?

And you wonder why people are confused? pheww!
Kind regards
TSM

[The Swinging Monkey]

flopperman,
Your comments do little for your cause Sir, except show you as a fool having to resort to personal insults. Try opening your eyes, and maybe you will see things in a slightly different light as well as other peoples' point of view.
TSM

[forget]

WHAT….IS...THE…..MONEY….NEEDED…FOR?

Roll Out - £250,000.
First Test Flight - £750,000.
Full Test Programme - £500,000.

……….doesn’t work for me - and certainly won’t work for any onlooker with a healthy cheque book to hand.

[Tim McLelland]

Originally Posted by The Swinging Monkey

Tim,
Am I really the only one here misreading what FI says, or do you know something that the rest of us don't?
She says 'The fact is that £250,000 alone will not restart the project, it needs the full £1M to be given or pledged for it to be able to go forward'
You say 'the 250K will allow the project to continue'
Which one of you is correct Tim? is it you or is it FI?
And you wonder why people are confused? pheww!
Kind regards
TSM

I don't know what you want me to say - I've explained my view more than enough times. Everyone seems to be confused but (as I keep saying) Pleming says quite specifically that unless they get 250k in two weeks or so, the project will be stopped. That's the only "hard fact" I've determined. The rest is open to question; Pleming seems to suggest that the rest of the money should be achieveable, but maybe he's being optimistic, I don't know. Felicity Irwin seems to be basing her comments on the broader information given on their web site, and although she's correct in saying that more cash is needed to finish the project, the point I've been trying to emphasise is that this is another matter entirely. The short-term point is that the project goes no further without the 250k, at least according to Pleming.

But once more, I can only say that regardless of all these tangents that we can go-off on, there seems to be only one practical route to follow - it's a straight choice between abandoning the project, or making an all-out effort to get the HLF to bail-out the project, at least until the flight stage. My inclination is to opt for the latter for the reason I've stated many times previously.

Clearly, we can argue about the rights and wrongs of the project forever, but what is the point? If it cannot go any further in two weeks from now, I don't really care about who did what and why, because it will be entirely academic once the project stops. Logically, the only way that the project can continue, and all the money and effort be saved, is for the HLF to stump-up enough cash (whatever the real figure may be) to get the aircraft to flight status. Then and only then, can TVOC (or whoever might follow-on from them!) can see once and for all, whether a sponsor can be found to keep the aircraft flying. If no sponsor is found, then by all means deliver the aircraft to Duxford (or preferably to someone overseas who might be able to fly it) and end the project then. But right now, at this stage, it would just be a complete waste of money and effort to bail-out at the last minute.

[flipflopman RB199]

Winco, TSM,
Perhaps I am an ignorant fool, I wasn't under the impression you would take that comment so very seriously as such a scathing personal insult.

My point is, it seems to me that you infact have an inabiltity to see things from a different perspective. You appear to have made up your mind about the project, and feel so sure you are armed with bulletproof facts you cannot possibly be wrong in any way. I can in some ways see why you have taken such a negative stance, but not why you are unprepared to see things from others point of view, or at least attempt to find out more for yourselves, to give you a better idea of the situation and some facts rather than opinion, on which to base your posts.

My eyes are most certainly open, and I am of the firm belief that this project can go on and succeed. I would strongly urge you to visit the hangar, or in the very least contact TVOC before writing this project off completely.

Flipflopman

[possel]

Originally Posted by GeeRam

They still are on charge, always have been (apart from PZ and AB that were of course donated to the flight by the manufacturers)
The only 'significant' BBMF aircraft to be sold was one of the Spit PR.XIX that was sold to fund the restoration of LF363 after the wheels up at Wittering following engine failure.

I know this is thread drift, but for the record LF363 was a complete wreck after it cartwheeled across the runway, with no wings left, the tube rear frame broken and twisted, the engine ripped off and a fire between the engine and cockpit, through the bulkhead. I was there!

[andrewmcharlton]

Flipflop,

I have no beef whatsoever with the guys in the hangar at all, I commend them entirely and know it must be very difficult for them right now, they have all of our best wishes I am sure.

I know that everyone wants to see it succeed but realism has to bite at some point. The campaign director herself says that without £1m the project will not go forward.

£250k isn't enough. Her own remarks also make it clear that £50k is a good month for fundraising and with some 20 days to go to decision day, surely someone has to question the best way forward.

They seem to suggest that they hope for a commercial sponsor to step in once roll out occurs but frankly if they aren't in negotiations with a sponsor today that is simply not going to happen. Even sponsors will want assurances and guarantees and it isn't clear one way or the other that any could be given. Commercial sponsorships aren't a case of here's a cheque off you go, they are complex legal relationships with onerous conditions invariably and would take a serious amount of time to conclude.

[whitworth]

Originally Posted by forget

Whitworth, Where did I suggest that Marshall ‘enter into discussion about (558) on a forum?’ I did say - I’m very surprised that Marshall has not ‘officially’ contributed to this thread with some explanation. Do you see the not so subtle difference?

I would guess that you have, at the very least, ‘affiliations’ with Marshall. As an example of what I’ve suggested, perhaps you could supply a breakdown of the £750,000 required for the ‘First Test Flight’, a figure based on current estimates and Marshall Aerospace of Cambridge projections. Without explanation, £750,000 for a test flight makes no sense at all.

Thank you for your observation that I ‘may be sailing very close to the wind with my insinuations’. I’m probably long enough in the tooth to handle that; and to recognise when a raw nerve has been prodded.

And why would you think that Marshall have any interest in what is posted on this forum?

As for my 'affiliation' with Marshall - guess again ! Another one of your conclusions jumped into with both feet.

It is my understanding that there will be a series of test flights, not just one. I suppose the figure of £750000 will go someway to paying for the time of those members of the winged master race conducting the flights.

[forget]

From Whitworth. 'And why would you think that Marshall have any interest in what is posted on this forum?

Nail on the head - In one

And 'As for my 'affiliation' with Marshall - guess again ! Another one of your conclusions jumped into with both feet'.

And since when was a guess a conclusion? (I'm staying with my guess.)

[ZH-127]

Added my name to the list.

Hopefully this will work.

[GeeRam]

Originally Posted by possel

I know this is thread drift, but for the record LF363 was a complete wreck after it cartwheeled across the runway, with no wings left, the tube rear frame broken and twisted, the engine ripped off and a fire between the engine and cockpit, through the bulkhead. I was there!

Those that saw LF afterwards don't doubt it was in less than pristine condition, that's why one of the PR.XIX's was sold to fund her rebuild.
Al Martin was indeed lucky to escape with only a bu99ered ankle if memory serves me right.......still did bloody well getting her down in a some semblence of one piece as it was.
Just looked at a photo of her sitting charred on the runway and wings are definately still attached, outer sections only looking a bit 'cattled'...
I seem to remember reading an article on the rebuild saying that structurally she was a lot better than she looked.....

[ZH-127]

Well, i wrote to HLF expressing my concerns.. this is the reply i got:

Thank you for your email. The Vulcan to the Sky Trust was awarded a Heritage Lottery Fund (HLF) grant of £2.73million in June 2004. This grant is for the restoration of the Avro Vulcan Bomber XH558, plans for it to fly for another 10-15 years and for it to be kept at the Imperial War Museum in Duxford. An accompanying education programme is also planned which will tell the story of the Cold War.

The Vulcan to the Sky Trust is doing a terrific job restoring the Vulcan Bomber and we have been impressed with their ability to stick to the proposed timetable for getting the aircraft up and running. However, the Trust has let us know that costs have escalated and it is having problems securing additional funding.

We are currently in discussion with the Trust as to how it can best take the project forward. Whilst we sympathise with their financial difficulties, it would be unlikely that we could offer any further support having already awarded a substantial grant.

Doesnt look like they will be funding it...

[whitworth]

Nail on the head - In one


???

[ZH-127]

Originally Posted by whitworth

Nail on the head - In one


???

The project needs a further £250k by the end of August 06 to continue. If it doesnt, the project stops.

There's a petition going with HLF to try to secure more funding.

Ive emailed HLF adding my name to the list and they wrote back saying that they wont be supporting the project any further as they have already donated £2M+ to the trust.

[ExAvio]

So from the horse's mouth:

"would be unlikely that we could offer any further support having already awarded a substantial grant."

Then why have they donated the following to the activities at Duxford:

£6,500,000 for the American Air Museum
£314,500 for the Duxford Aviation Society
£9,500,000 for the Airspace Project

Surely this could be classed as additional funding for the one "location".

Interestingly enough, the only "Private" organisation, DAS, got the smallest grant......

BUT THE IMPERIAL WAR MUSEUM, WHICH IS OWNED BY THE STATE / GOVERNMENT / PEOPLE GOT A TOTAL OF £16,000,000!!!!!

And to add further insult to injury, the Brighton West Pier has bee awarded 4 Grants totalling £13,557,600! Why can HLF award "additional funding" to some but not others?

I will question HLF on these matters when I write to them.