Vulcan to the Sky, The End? (Merged)

[fly_high]

Maybe somebody can clarify this... if certain RAF aircraft are preserved in flying order, such as the Spitfires, Hurricanes and Lancaster of the Battle of Britain Memorial Flight, why isn't the Vulcan included in some sort of Cold War Memorial Flight?

That way they could have RAF backing (and presumably some RAF funding), and it would be a way of preserving other aircraft of the era under the same project.

[DEL Mode]

Maybe the correct thing to do would be for the HLF to purchase the Hangar for the Nation to store historic aircraft in.

Then IF money can be found to return them to flight, and IF the CAA are willing to issue flight certification, there may be a project to continue.

[Pontius Navigator]

fly_high I believe it is simply down to cost. The RAF kept the Vulcan display going for about 2 years after the ac left service until it was out of fatigue.

I think the cost of the major servicing was IRO £1m at the time. BBMF OTOH has a significant amount of good will sponsorship and Spitfire bits are relatively easy to come by.

In addition to the simple operating cost, as a State aircraft, there would have been a significant cost associated with crew currency and groundcrew.

[Pontius Navigator]

Originally Posted by DEL Mode

Maybe the correct thing to do would be for the HLF to purchase the Hangar for the Nation to store historic aircraft in.

Hangarage is certainly an issue but remember the aircraft is to be kept at Duxford where I don't think it would be an issue.

The present problem I suspect is associated with the transfer of the Vulcan, owned and housed by David Walton to the TVOC but where it has remained in his hangar.

Until he transfered the aircraft he would have planned on making money form its displays and thus offset the cost of hangarage in his accounts. As soon as the aircraft was transfered to the trust with its planned transfer to Duxford then his future profits would have disappeared. To the loss future profits would then be added the cost of hangarage. The only way to recoup costs was therefore to charge a commercial rent.

Or am I way off mark?

[MReyn24050]

Originally Posted by ATNotts on the Aviation History & Nostalgia Forum.
"Very sad that they cannot find a sponsor - but they would probably do better if they could offer a Vodafone, Coca Cola or other global brand a big logo on the tail in place of the RAF scheme!!
Trouble is today corporate Britain is inwilling to sponsor anything for its own sake - they want a tangible return and a Vulcan billboard (heaven forbid) would probably fit the bill!"
I agree ATNotts, but not just the tail why not on the whole of the aircraft. As an enthusiast of the Aviation History & Nostalgia Forum I know this must sound like sacrilege, but surely it must be possible to get a major branded company to sponsor the completion of the restoration of XH558 allowing them advertise their product in a similar fashion to Red Bull's Sea Vixen G-CVIX. Once the aircraft has a C of A should sponsorship diminish then it shouldn't be so expensive to keep it flying. At least we would once again see this magnificent aircraft in the air once again.
Mel

[Mike51]

Originally Posted by Pontius Navigator

Hangarage is certainly an issue but remember the aircraft is to be kept at Duxford where I don't think it would be an issue.

The (rather bizarre) plan is for the aircraft to be retired to Duxford when its flying days are finally over, not to be operated from there - the runway would be too short for regular Vulcan operations, other than a 'one-time' landing, for a start.

However, since Duxford already have a representative service Vulcan, about to be entombed in the new AirSpace building, nobody seems to have a satisfactory answer as to why they'd want another example. Especially one unrepresentative of a service airframe after all the mods have been made to put it on the CAA register. Least of all Duxford themselves, who were suitably vague when I emailed then asking this question a couple of years back. Bear in mind that Duxford have a history of scrapping unwanted duplicate airframes (Comet, Varsity) or ones which don't fit the latest collecting policy (Convair VT-29)

Added to which, once the permanent exhibition is installed in AirSpace, I don't think that Duxford have a hangar big enough for a Vulcan, so it will presumably be left outside.

The fact that the then-Director of Duxford is also a trustee of the Vulcan project is interesting. I wonder what the current Duxford Director thinks of the plan?

Still, it sadly looks as though any 'retirement planning' is somewhat premature, to say the least.

[green granite]

I think that the main thing is to get it flying again, if that were to mean that it is painted in corporate colours with their name spread out across the underneath then so be it, a shame maybe but better than the knackers yard

[Pontius Navigator]

Thank for the correct Mike. Two words spring to mind, one begins with M and the other B but not necessarily in that order.

[GeeRam]

Originally Posted by fly_high

Maybe somebody can clarify this... if certain RAF aircraft are preserved in flying order, such as the Spitfires, Hurricanes and Lancaster of the Battle of Britain Memorial Flight, why isn't the Vulcan included in some sort of Cold War Memorial Flight?

That way they could have RAF backing (and presumably some RAF funding), and it would be a way of preserving other aircraft of the era under the same project.

As I recall, hopefully correctly, the RAF Vulcan Display Flight operated for close to 10 years after the RAF ceased operational flying of the Vulcans.

In 1993, '558 was needing the major which it's now undergoing and the cost of which, surprise, surprise the MOD wasn't prepared to stump up for, but cited also as a reason for ending flying was the iminent withdrawl of the Victors from service and thereby the infrastructure to safely support the continued operation of a V-bomber wouldn't be there anymore.

[Tim McLelland]

Originally Posted by green granite

I think that the main thing is to get it flying again, if that were to mean that it is painted in corporate colours with their name spread out across the underneath then so be it, a shame maybe but better than the knackers yard

Exactly - I know I'm repeating myself but going-off at tangents at this stage is just counter productive.
If you care to look at Airscene this week, there's a feature on the saga and an easy-to-send message to HLF. If enough people send it, and pass it on to all their friends, it might just be sufficient pressure to influence HLF's negotiations with TVOC. Gotta be worth a try as there's no other option on the horizon.

As for the corporate colours business, I believe it's not even a viable option now that HLF have stepped-in. Part of the business plan is that the aircraft be shown around the country as a Cold War relic - so Red Bull colours would be a little inappropriate! The fact that HLF have stepped-in only serves to underline how they have at least a moral responsibility to see the project through to flight.

[possel]

Originally Posted by fly_high

Maybe somebody can clarify this... if certain RAF aircraft are preserved in flying order, such as the Spitfires, Hurricanes and Lancaster of the Battle of Britain Memorial Flight, why isn't the Vulcan included in some sort of Cold War Memorial Flight?

That way they could have RAF backing (and presumably some RAF funding), and it would be a way of preserving other aircraft of the era under the same project.

The BBMF is meant to be a nil cost exercise - we all know it isn't - but hiding the high costs of a Vulcan are beyond the ability of anyone!

It was hard enough getting funds for in-service aircraft mods etc, and I for one resented the money being spent on historical aircraft (OK, good PR exercise etc). There is NO reason why the RAF should pay for anything for the Vulcan.

In fact, with so many private warbirds in the sky these days, the BBMF itself could be sold off now, couldn't it? (Takes cover...)

[Tim McLelland]

The RAF can barely manage to fund the BBMF and Reds at the moment. I was reliably informed that the Vulcan used more fuel to get to the end of the runway than the BBMF consumed for a full display.

[madbadrob]

The BBMF aircraft are not owned by the RAF or MOD but leased to them, so the costs there can be if need be passed back to their owners.

As for the Vulcan whilst it would be amazing to see it flying again I don't see how we can expect the HLF to keep dipping into the pot. THat said though some of the projects they and other lottery agencies have paid out have been diabolical. 50m for the opera house in London for example comes to mind.

How many aviation enthusiasts are there? Why can't we all dip in to our pockets and donate a tenner each I am sure that would be a big step towards the 250k

Rob

[Tim McLelland]

Originally Posted by madbadrob

The BBMF aircraft are not owned by the RAF or MOD but leased to them, so the costs there can be if need be passed back to their owners.

Where has that nugget of information come from?

[XL319]

TWo problems arise - is there a hangar big enough at Duxford and also is the runway long enough for the Vulcan to take off and land? If so i would imagine they would need new brakes every trip

[madbadrob]

Originally Posted by Tim McLelland

Where has that nugget of information come from?

From the guys who fly it. From those who have had anything to do with the BBMF.

Rob

[madbadrob]

I was just looking at the AHB of the RAF and would you believe they have a vulcan on their home page. Why can't these guys help? Why then cant the Vulcan be a part of the BBMF as the Dakota as been amongst the usual planes? Maybe stick a harrier with it and a Tornado Jaguar and call is the Battle of the Falklands flight?

Rob

[possel]

Originally Posted by madbadrob

From the guys who fly it. From those who have had anything to do with the BBMF.

Rob

Well, the BBMF aircraft certainly used to be owned by the MOD (pre 91). When did they sell them, how much did the MOD get for the fleet and who are the owners now?

[possel]

Originally Posted by madbadrob

I was just looking at the AHB of the RAF and would you believe they have a vulcan on their home page. Why can't these guys help? Why then cant the Vulcan be a part of the BBMF as the Dakota as been amongst the usual planes? Maybe stick a harrier with it and a Tornado Jaguar and call is the Battle of the Falklands flight?

Rob

Dunno what part of the services you were/are with, but justifying the use of public money comes to mind as a good reason not to do this!

I worked on Vulcans and Harriers, and neither are cheap, even just for normal maintenance. Then when they need airframe repairs (corrosion, cracking etc) you start writing big cheques.

[madbadrob]

Originally Posted by possel

Dunno what part of the services you were/are with, but justifying the use of public money comes to mind as a good reason not to do this!

I worked on Vulcans and Harriers, and neither are cheap, even just for normal maintenance. Then when they need airframe repairs (corrosion, cracking etc) you start writing big cheques.

Actually neither. Just an ex air cadet who managed to get a flight in the late 1980's in the lancaster. The info was given to me by a flight Lieutenant at the 2005 Waddo airshow.

Rob