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-   -   All borders to reopen. (https://www.pprune.org/australia-new-zealand-pacific/632861-all-borders-reopen.html)

KRviator 31st Aug 2021 02:06


Originally Posted by Chronic Snoozer (Post 11103783)
I wasn't aware lung cancer is a highly contagious virus. How long would the average lung cancer victim have been known to the medical system and how much treatment would they have received versus a COVID victim? Do lung cancer sufferers often die within 12 days? Adriana Takara

You've missed the point. Lung cancer, as MickG rightly points out, is mostly (90% male, 65% female according to the Cancer Council) caused by voluntary smoking. And Governments of all persuasions, do sweet FA about it - and it sure as hell doesn't rate a mention in the papers the way Covid is racking up column inches. It's just..."accepted", as part of everyday life.

Xeptu 31st Aug 2021 02:11


Originally Posted by layman (Post 11103776)
ACT 70+ year olds now at 99.45% having had their first dose ... and still going higher each day.

Supply (of an ‘acceptable’ vaccine) & our ability to deliver, would seem to be the main constraints.

Obviously not the whole story, but vaccine hesitancy may be more a very small (but noisy) minority than a real issue

Yes! I'll try and explain it for the benefit of our own city people. I'm double dosed AZ, the second dose was only a week ago and done the moment I was eligible. I'm based near a major community centre of about 20,000 people. Less than half of those in that centre are vaccinated, not because they don't want to be but mostly because in truth they are fence sitters, there isn't a need right now, there's no covid in the community. Now this part is the serious bit. Anyone outside of 100Km's of those centres only comes to town about once a month. Up to now they either haven't been eligible or there wasn't any or anywhere you could get it. These are by far the greater majority of the region.
Would it be fair to say that we can expect the virus to arrive in those areas around the end of the year, regardless of the borders, is that a fair call?? If that happens at harvest, it will be catastrophic for the nation and the Industry. NO FOOD If we can't get those same people into WA at harvest, very little harvest.

All I'm trying to tell you is the impending problem is bigger than tourism and travel. There is still time to fix it, but scomo better get his finger out.

Ladloy 31st Aug 2021 02:33


Originally Posted by KRviator (Post 11103775)
ZOMGORRRZZZ! We've just passed 1,000 Covid deaths. That's terrible! A true tragedy, horrible! We MUST do something to stop all these people DYING from Covid! Lockdown! And over there, there's children playing in the park! Police! ARREST THEM! :mad:

Meanwhile, in the Oncology ward, a Doctor sighs as he fills out the death certificate and says "That's the 5,658th lung cancer victim this year...":ugh:

Classic whataboutism.

43Inches 31st Aug 2021 02:57

Xeptu,

That is worrying, considering to be fully vaccinated you need at least 6 weeks from first does of Pfizer, 8 weeks given current constraints, and if AZ double that. It's important that any fence sitters are aware that is the case and that if it does arrive in their town over night they can't just vaccinate the next day and be done with it.

Harvest is going to also be a worry as a lot of city folk will be going country to help, increasing the chance of spreading it in rural communities. Hopefully someone is accounting for this in planning.

BTW I swayed two very vulnerable fence sitters by highlighting that issue of time, they are now vaxxed had no side effects apart from a sore arm and they feel safer vs the virus, so are much more relaxed about the situation.

pithblot 31st Aug 2021 03:06

Don’t shoot the messenger.
 
Frustrated and at a loss to understand why a considerable and growing body of evidence in favour of the cheap, off-patent medication is being not merely ignored but actively rejected, Dr Phillip M. Altman, a veteran of the drug-testing and appraisal industry, wrote to Dr Elliott to demand “revised recommendations for the use of ivermectin within 14 days”. That letter is reproduced …”

….in the Quadrant Online article I linked to recently.


If you take the time to peruse the, 53 to date, reader responses you will see some very compelling and salient comment. I highly recommend that you do, noting in particular the first letter from Dr R L Clancy AM.


Dr Clancy writes,
  • Robert Clancy – 22nd August 2021

    Dr Altman, Excellent letter, and outstanding support from Dr Lawrie and her colleague. I assume you have a strategy when you do not get a response.

    There is no need for me to add to the evidence you summarise, other than to say that data confirming the clinical value of Ivermectin (IVM) appears on a daily basis. Yesterday the British Medical Journal asked me to review a paper showing rapid virus clearance following IVM. In normal times, given the many studies showing exactly that, the paper would be rejected on the basis that the information is not new. It will probably be rejected this time on political and ideological grounds.

    As one of the senior clinical immunologists in Australia, and the only one whose research has focussed on mucosal immunology and host-parasite relationships at mucosal surfaces in man (squarely relevant to Covid-19 infection), I find the current disinformation with respect to early treatment of Covid-19 infection beyond my understanding and without precedent in 50 years of practise. The two principles on which Australia has forged the highest levels of medical practice are neglected: the rule of science, and the rule of the doctor-patient relationship.

    The situation that defies logic and sense is that, on one hand, repositioned drugs with Pharma support (and patents) focussed on RNA polymerase such as Remdesivir that has failed repeated randomised controlled trials (RCT’s) yet continues to be used in our intensive care units at $4,000-$5,000 a course, while on the other, safe, cheap and effective repositioned drugs without patents that focus on changing the way cells process infectious agents, with numerous supporting RCT’s, are dismissed.

    The cynicism of Merck having publicly dismissed ivermectin the day before it announced a $US300 million government grant to develop an “early treatment”, starting its “rolling registration” around the world (our TGA last week) for son-of Remdesivir, the repositioned “Molnupirivir”, as a “breakthrough” oral treatment (recently sold to the US government before its trials are completed at $1,000 per course), is not lost on anyone.

    I wrote 8 months ago that the biology of Covid-19 infection dictates that while the parenteral genetic vaccines available to us will be important in short term Covid control, they will have little impact on infection, will be short in duration, and that antigen drift will create variants that will severely compromise efficacy. They will settle along influenza-vaccine lines. Moreover, genetic vaccines by stimulating uncontrolled synthesis of spike protein will cause highly concerning adverse events of a short and long-term nature that we can only surmise at this stage.

    All these outcomes have come about. My point was, and is, that ivermectin and like drugs are immediately needed, not to compete with vaccines, but to complement them: to reduce community spread; to treat early disease; to reduce progression to severe disease requiring admission to hospital and possible death; and to reduce the growing community repository of “long Covid” .

    Making ivermectin available across the Covid community now will shorten the current community crises where infection is out of control, will be synergistic with the vaccine programme facilitating movement through the planned stages, and greatly facilitate our reconnect with the world outside the bubble.

    The question almost every experienced clinician is asking in Australia is ‘we have a problem that we are doing nothing for, one that is threatening the very fibre of our nation, and vaccines are looking a little iffy. There is a drug available for early treatment of Covid-19 with more evidence supporting its safety and efficacy than there is for most drugs I use every day. Why are we not using this drug? What on earth has my patient got to lose?’ Where is the leadership?

    Dr Altman, I support your plea to those who can make decisions, based on evidence as summarised in your open letter. Lives are lost while positions are defended.

    Best wishes,
    Robert Clancy

    ‘A Total Lack of Therapeutic Perspective’

Chronic Snoozer 31st Aug 2021 03:14


Originally Posted by KRviator (Post 11103786)
You've missed the point. Lung cancer, as MickG rightly points out, is mostly (90% male, 65% female according to the Cancer Council) caused by voluntary smoking. And Governments of all persuasions, do sweet FA about it - and it sure as hell doesn't rate a mention in the papers the way Covid is racking up column inches. It's just..."accepted", as part of everyday life.

Errr, no. That is exactly the point. You are comparing apples with a comedy squirting flower. The government most certainly has done quite a few things about 'it' but that's by the by. But seriously, can I catch 'smoking' by walking into Bunnings?

Xeptu 31st Aug 2021 03:21


Originally Posted by 43Inches (Post 11103805)
Xeptu,

BTW I swayed two very vulnerable fence sitters by highlighting that issue of time,

I was in an office in the centre only yesterday preaching that very argument, they were young people so it's only just become available to them, but clearly hesitant all the same. I impressed upon them that it'll still take a few weeks for the vaccine to do its thing. Don't leave it till it's too late, look what's happening in Sydney, don't think that can't happen here.

43Inches 31st Aug 2021 03:23


You've missed the point. Lung cancer, as MickG rightly points out, is mostly (90% male, 65% female according to the Cancer Council) caused by voluntary smoking. And Governments of all persuasions, do sweet FA about it - and it sure as hell doesn't rate a mention in the papers the way Covid is racking up column inches. It's just..."accepted", as part of everyday life.
Ok, so the ridiculous price of cigarettes, confronting pictures on packets, plain packaging, bans of smoking in almost all public areas and venues now as well as bans on smoking around kids etc etc is the gov doing nothing.... I was a smoker many years ago, I quit because it became too hard due to the restrictions and cost, as well as being dumb for my health. You also increase a number of premiums and some doctors may defer surgery on you if you smoke, how many forms do you fill out regarding health that refer to smoking status, why, because many things recognise it's bad for you.

Lead Balloon 31st Aug 2021 03:58


Treasurer Josh Frydenberg says a world where States and Territories stay at “zero COVID forever” is “unrealistic”, and warns States not to expect the same level of financial support for lockdowns enforced after 80 per cent of the population was vaccinated.

“When is it that businesses can reopen, when is that the kids can go back to school, when is it that when we can attend the funeral is on the weddings of loved ones, when is it that we can move more freely in our own country?”

He warned States that continued to use lockdowns and border closures after 80 per cent of the population was vaccinated should not expect the same level of financial support from the Morrison Government.

“I wouldn’t use that term sanctions but what I would say is that I’ve made it very clear that there should be no expectation on behalf of the premiers and the chief ministers that our emergency economic support will continue at the scale that it is currently when we reach the 70 to 80 per cent targets,” he said.

That looks suspiciously like the Commonwealth government using the vertical fiscal imbalance to bring pressure to bear on the states to behave in the way the Commonwealth wants. Who knew the Commonwealth had powers beyond those listed in s 51 of the Constitution...

Thoughts, Mick?

Xeptu 31st Aug 2021 04:07


Originally Posted by 43Inches (Post 11103805)
Xeptu,

Harvest is going to also be a worry as a lot of city folk will be going country to help

Help!! really we couldn't get them to come out and pick fruit. Unless you know your way around a heavy vehicle, preferably a multi combination or know how to track a line in a header, they might as well stay home out of the way, completely useless.

All I'm seeing at the moment is NSW in deep crisis by NOV and if they can't get a few thousand tiny bottles with a few nurses to use them out here, what chance do we have of getting a couple of thousand farmers into an ICU in the capital city.

Xeptu 31st Aug 2021 04:11


Originally Posted by Lead Balloon (Post 11103826)
That looks suspiciously like the Commonwealth government using the vertical fiscal imbalance to bring pressure to bear on the states to behave in the way the Commonwealth wants. Who knew the Commonwealth had powers beyond those listed in s 51 of the Constitution...

Thoughts, Mick?

Sounds to me like he just lost the election.

ExtraShot 31st Aug 2021 04:21


That looks suspiciously like the Commonwealth government using the vertical fiscal imbalance to bring pressure to bear on the states to behave in the way the Commonwealth wants. Who knew the Commonwealth had powers beyond those listed in s 51 of the Constitution...

Thoughts, Mick?
The biggest problem with the Feds doing that is it’s people like us, aircrew that are currently finding federal support payments very useful, that will suffer if the support is removed.

McGowan, Marshal, Palachook et al along with Morrison and co haven’t lost a cent, and they’ll continue to collect full freight throughout. They states will point the finger at the feds and say, “see, they’re taking away your assistance”… they’ll argue back and forth until the federal election while many more of us lose houses cars and all the rest, and neither Side will give a stuff how many of us get hurt.

SOPS 31st Aug 2021 05:15

Listening to some nurses from NSW, just now being interviewed on the ABC radio, it sounds like the entire NSW public health system is close to collapse.

If that is true, you can forget any state borders opening anytime soon.

Lead Balloon 31st Aug 2021 05:30


Originally Posted by ExtraShot (Post 11103835)
The biggest problem with the Feds doing that is it’s people like us, aircrew that are currently finding federal support payments very useful, that will suffer if the support is removed.

McGowan, Marshal, Palachook et al along with Morrison and co haven’t lost a cent, and they’ll continue to collect full freight throughout. They states will point the finger at the feds and say, “see, they’re taking away your assistance”… they’ll argue back and forth until the federal election while many more of us lose houses cars and all the rest, and neither Side will give a stuff how many of us get hurt.

Never fear. The states will take the hint from Josh from Accounts. That's how the power of the vertical fiscal imbalance works.

JustinHeywood 31st Aug 2021 05:47


Originally Posted by pithblot (Post 11103808)


Dr Clancy writes…Why are we not using this drug [Ivermectin]?

Always dangerous for amateurs like most of us to focus on the outlier academics who support our personal views.

The fact that the vast majority of specialists in the field favour a vaccine
and discount or dismiss the utility of Ivermectin should be enough for those of us who are, at best, interested observers.
There is plenty of articles opposing professor Clancy’s viewpoint, and his own university says he is speaking beyond his field of expertise.

This doesn’t mean he is wrong necessarily, but there’s no way the average person can make a judgement.

Icarus2001 31st Aug 2021 09:12


ABC radio, it sounds like the entire NSW public health system is close to collapse.
Come on big guy, I know you have been around long enough to know the rules. For the ABC anything in a Liberal state is a total disaster and anything in a Labor state is well handled. Then simply seek out an overworked employee or a sympathetic expert to confirm your headline. Simples.
Can we remember that Covid is a flu with a 98.2% survival rate please.

dr dre 31st Aug 2021 10:15


Originally Posted by JustinHeywood (Post 11103851)
The fact that the vast majority of specialists in the field favour a vaccine
and discount or dismiss the utility of Ivermectin should be enough for those of us who are, at best, interested observers.

Here’s the US FDA’s take on it:



There is plenty of articles opposing professor Clancy’s viewpoint, and his own university says he is speaking beyond his field of expertise.

This doesn’t mean he is wrong necessarily, but there’s no way the average person can make a judgement.
Robert Clancy is even more irrelevant than that, he retired 8 years ago, Newcastle University hasn’t funded his research for 12 years and he himself hasn’t commented on the numerous studies showing the worthlessness and dangerousness of Ivermectin since the start of the year.

If anyone wants to take livestock dewormer as treatment and forego a vaccine go ahead, but your fate will be similar to this:

A police captain who refused the vaccine and took the anti-parasitic ivermectin to combat COVID-19 dies from the virus

ExtraShot 31st Aug 2021 10:52

I don't vouch for Ivermectin as a treatment for covid (just get vaccinated FFS), but for a government body like the FDA to write off a drug that has safely treated river blindness in Africa for 20 odd years, as merely a treatment that only horses and cows should be given is complete stupidity.

https://www.cdc.gov/parasites/onchoc...treatment.html


Yes, I realise the blurb says '...to treat covid-19', but it seems they're trying to spin a narrative by trying to frame it as 'not for human consumption'. Plenty of substances used for odd purposes are remade and repurposed as medicine for humans. Its a real shame that ivermectin has been proven not to be effective for Covid 19 because its cheap and easily made. We aren't getting out of this Covid mess without anti-virals in addition to vaccines, so I'd hope to see some come to the fore soon. Maybe PharmAust with their Monepantel (wait, that's sheep drench, tsk, tsk)... or whatever Pfizer is working on.

dr dre 31st Aug 2021 12:31


Originally Posted by ExtraShot (Post 11104013)
I don't vouch for Ivermectin as a treatment for covid (just get vaccinated FFS), but for a government body like the FDA to write off a drug that has safely treated river blindness in Africa for 20 odd years, as merely a treatment that only horses and cows should be given is complete stupidity.

Ivermectin is an anti-parasitic. River blindness is a disease caused by parasites. Covid isn’t.

The reason the FDA is giving these warnings is people are going into livestock stores in the US and are panic buying Ivermectin meant for Horse or Cow deworming as a treatment or prophylactic for Covid.

Where do people get this idea that Ivermectin will help them?:

How the right’s ivermectin conspiracy theories led to people buying horse dewormer

And in case you think it’s an “only in America” thing.....:

Sky News Australia deletes dozens of videos promoting unproven Covid treatments

43Inches 31st Aug 2021 13:08

There was anecdotal evidence Ivermectin and Hydroxychloroquine had done some good in India. However if you look at the amount of different drugs they pumped into patients in the early stages it's very difficult to say which if any were doing anything, and how much was just early intervention in any case. Both were proven to have little effect, if any at all past mild onset relief. The kicker is that India completely about faced 2 months ago and removed both from the treatment list completely, and from the look of it, it hasn't made much difference since, so either they were doing nothing or doctors are continuing to use them against recommended procedure.

I think someone may have already posted that a key instigator of the use of Ivermectim in the USA died of covid not long ago. There's been a few of these key anti vaccine, covid is just a flu types get killed by covid recently in the US, a lot of folks there poking fun at them, so the FDA line is not out of line with that.


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