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-   -   All borders to reopen. (https://www.pprune.org/australia-new-zealand-pacific/632861-all-borders-reopen.html)

morno 22nd Apr 2021 01:29


Originally Posted by KRviator (Post 11032022)
To me, no it isn't.

The KRviatrix and I are both fully immunised so much as can be, as are the rugrats, however, we both have reservations about the speed with which these vaccines have been developed, "approved" and rolled out. They may ultimately be proven to be unfounded reservations, but to me, it seems like we are grasping at anything that will get us back to pre-covid times and to hell with the long-term risks. There was no suggestion of blood clots with the AZ vaccine until Norway & Denmark stopped administering it. What other hidden gems might appear down the track? I accept the risk of contracting Covid and manage that risk myself, rather than having it managed for me by companies & governments with a pecuniary interest in having me get the vaccination.

History is littered with examples of "It seemed like a good idea at the time!"

We administer drugs and vaccines all the time that have risks attached to them, much higher than these new vaccines. The contraceptive pill for example, a shitload higher risk of developing blood clots than the AZ vaccine.

People need some perspective and trust in the medical science that has got us this far in history.

The fear and scepticism of these Covid vaccines is largely media driven.

KRviator 22nd Apr 2021 02:26


Originally Posted by Tucknroll (Post 11032024)
You may have your conviction tested.

https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/amp....21-p57l37.html

Fortunately, my employer - a multi-billion $$, multi-national, has come out and told their staff they will not be forced to choose between a vaccine and a job. They have said it should be up to the individual to decide, so barring McGoose mandating it as a condition of entry to the Democratic Peoples Republic of Westralia I can continue to let others field-test the vaccines.


Originally Posted by morno
We administer drugs and vaccines all the time that have risks attached to them, much higher than these new vaccines. The contraceptive pill for example, a shitload higher risk of developing blood clots than the AZ vaccine.

True that, but, by and large, with existing vaccines & drugs they are known risks, assessed and identified over many years, if not decades. The Covid vaccines, all of them, carry the threat of unknown risks and that is the problem. Blood clotting was not considered a risk of the vaccine until it was. There was no risk of giving the AZ vaccine to <50's, until there was! And now, even if I wanted to, I can't get the AZ vaccine as I'm under 50, so the risk of blood clots is presumably higher than the risk of contracting Covid & dying from it.

Global Aviator 22nd Apr 2021 03:02

Under 50 can still get the AZ vaccine. Just have to sign a disclaimer. Get the jab open the world.

jrfsp 22nd Apr 2021 03:16

Covid cases are surging in quarantine across the country, numbers are higher than ever before.....and also covid transmissions occurring in hotels.....

I personally think we need to pause Indian arrivals as NZ has done.

SOPS 22nd Apr 2021 03:52


Originally Posted by jrfsp (Post 11032049)
Covid cases are surging in quarantine across the country, numbers are higher than ever before.....and also covid transmissions occurring in hotels.....

I personally think we need to pause Indian arrivals as NZ has done.

I think we need to pause ALL arrivals. Cases in HQ are rising and spread is happening. If we are not careful borders will be shutting again.

murder most fowl 22nd Apr 2021 03:58

There are 2 options; you get the vaccine, or you will get COVID without vaccine protection. Both have risk and that's up for you and hopefully your doctor to decide.


morno 22nd Apr 2021 04:06


Originally Posted by KRviator (Post 11032039)
Fortunately, my employer - a multi-billion $$, multi-national, has come out and told their staff they will not be forced to choose between a vaccine and a job. They have said it should be up to the individual to decide, so barring McGoose mandating it as a condition of entry to the Democratic Peoples Republic of Westralia I can continue to let others field-test the vaccines.

True that, but, by and large, with existing vaccines & drugs they are known risks, assessed and identified over many years, if not decades. The Covid vaccines, all of them, carry the threat of unknown risks and that is the problem. Blood clotting was not considered a risk of the vaccine until it was. There was no risk of giving the AZ vaccine to <50's, until there was! And now, even if I wanted to, I can't get the AZ vaccine as I'm under 50, so the risk of blood clots is presumably higher than the risk of contracting Covid & dying from it.

Do you think that maybe the only reason they’re not recommending (not prohibiting like you suggested) that people under 35 get it, is probably more because of the unnecessary negative attention that the AZ has received and the associated public backlash because of the misinformation that had been spread in the lead up to the decision?

Another words, ScoMo wanted to be seen to be doing the right thing because if even 1 person died, he’d cop an earful from all the misinformed and anti vaxxers saying they should have stopped it. Whereas (I don’t have the info nor could I be arsed looking), ordinarily on a day to day basis people are probably getting reactions to many other vaccines that we’ve used for years. Why do you think you have to sit around for 15 minutes after a vaccine and the nursing staff are trained in things like advanced life support etc.?

It’s turning out to be the biggest unnecessary media driven misinformation vaccine rollout in history :rolleyes:

Just get the f***ing jab so we can carry on with life

Dannyboy39 22nd Apr 2021 05:18


Originally Posted by KRviator (Post 11032039)
Fortunately, my employer - a multi-billion $$, multi-national, has come out and told their staff they will not be forced to choose between a vaccine and a job. They have said it should be up to the individual to decide, so barring McGoose mandating it as a condition of entry to the Democratic Peoples Republic of Westralia I can continue to let others field-test the vaccines.

True that, but, by and large, with existing vaccines & drugs they are known risks, assessed and identified over many years, if not decades. The Covid vaccines, all of them, carry the threat of unknown risks and that is the problem. Blood clotting was not considered a risk of the vaccine until it was. There was no risk of giving the AZ vaccine to <50's, until there was! And now, even if I wanted to, I can't get the AZ vaccine as I'm under 50, so the risk of blood clots is presumably higher than the risk of contracting Covid & dying from it.

Completely wrong. It is about 40x more likely to die from Covid. For U30s it is 1.1 clotting event per 100,000!

Icarus2001 22nd Apr 2021 08:13


I think we need to pause ALL arrivals. Cases in HQ are rising and spread is happening
I hear where you are coming from but I don't think it is reasonable (or legal) to deny entry to Australian citizens into Australia. How many countries in the world are effectively stopping their citizens returning home by restricting hotel place and thus seats? It is the first job of government to look after our own.
If you can get to Australia by your own means, they have to let you in. Boat, private aircraft etc.

ElZilcho 22nd Apr 2021 08:39

If AZ was the only Vaccine available I highly doubt any Governments would be making a fuss over the extremely rare side effects... however, AZ has been highly politicised in EU AND there are (arguably better) alternatives so here we are. It's easy for a Politician to score brownie points with the masses when there's another Vaccine to fall back on.

Purely from a numbers perspective, you're more likely to suffer career ending complications from the Virus than you are from the Vaccine. People love to quote the survival rate of COVID, but always conveniently leave out the numbers of people suffering long term complications which would prevent them from holding a Class 1 Medical. Ironically, (or not) one of those long term effects from COVID is Blood clots.

Someone (possibly in another thread) mentioned they've lost their medical due to Vaccine complications... which if true, is a shitty thing to have happen to an individual. (Also, if true, I expect IFALPA and other Industry bodies will be issuing a warning shortly) But the exact same scenario could of played out if that person caught COVID and developed lung damage from it, or became a suffer of "Long COVID" which appears to similar to Chronic fatigue syndrome.

Finally:

True that, but, by and large, with existing vaccines & drugs they are known risks, assessed and identified over many years, if not decades. The Covid vaccines, all of them, carry the threat of unknown risks and that is the problem. Blood clotting was not considered a risk of the vaccine until it was. There was no risk of giving the AZ vaccine to <50's, until there was! And now, even if I wanted to, I can't get the AZ vaccine as I'm under 50, so the risk of blood clots is presumably higher than the risk of contracting Covid & dying from it.
How do you think these Risks are discovered and assessed over many years, or decades? Short answer is, not by leaving the phial sitting on a shelf. Phase 3 Trials have their limits... most phase 3 trials have a few thousand subjects. The rate of blood clots with AZ is around 1:200,000
This is, and always has been, the reality of medical testing. The extremely rare side effects don't become apparent until mass adoption because you simply cannot get a large enough sample size from clinical trials. This might give cause for some to be hesitant, as an old friend of mine used to say (Retired Surgeon) "You never want to be to the first or the last to prescribe a certain drug", but the reality is, we don't know what we don't know. So yes, in effect, we're all guinea pigs (those who have been Vaccinated) but for a Drug that's successfully passed Phase 3 trials, you're more likely yo get hit by a bus stumbling back to your layover hotel at 2am than you are dying from the Vaccine. You're also far more likely to experience life long complications (or death) from the Virus than you are for the Vaccine.

Small comfort to those negatively impacted by the Vaccine I know... but there was never going to be a version of any Vaccine (or Medication) that didn't cause some form of side effects in someone when you're distributing it world wide.

Fuel-Off 22nd Apr 2021 09:01


Originally Posted by SOPS (Post 11032064)
I think we need to pause ALL arrivals. Cases in HQ are rising and spread is happening. If we are not careful borders will be shutting again.

I think you'd be singing a different tune if you were still living overseas, SOPS.

Chris2303 23rd Apr 2021 01:41

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/300284846/australian-man-from-victoria-catches-covid19-in-perth-quarantine-hotel

A
Victorian man contracted Covid-19 in a Perth quarantine hotel before travelling to Melbourne this week.

The man arrived in Melbourne on April 21 and was advised immediately upon his arrival that he was deemed a close contact of a positive case because the virus was transmitting on the man’s hotel floor.

As a result, he travelled directly home and has been isolating ever since, Victoria’s Health Minister Martin Foley said.

The man received his positive test result on Friday morning in Victoria.

RodH 23rd Apr 2021 02:25

From the ABC News site: All passengers on Qantas flight QF778 are being considered close contacts and will need to isolate for 14 days.
Just goes to show how changeable this whole thing can be in a very short time.
Things could well get a lot worse but let's hope not!!!

blubak 23rd Apr 2021 03:23


Originally Posted by RodH (Post 11032592)
From the ABC News site: All passengers on Qantas flight QF778 are being considered close contacts and will need to isolate for 14 days.
Just goes to show how changeable this whole thing can be in a very short time.
Things could well get a lot worse but let's hope not!!!

Yes,lets hope not.
Lets now see the media who have no hesitation in sticking it into the victorian govt whenever they have an opportunity do exactly the same to Mcgowan & friends.
The hotel that this happened in(mercure) was recently identified as possibly the worst hotel in the quarantine system & should not be used.

jrfsp 23rd Apr 2021 03:34


Originally Posted by blubak (Post 11032604)
Yes,lets hope not.
Lets now see the media who have no hesitation in sticking it into the victorian govt whenever they have an opportunity do exactly the same to Mcgowan & friends.
The hotel that this happened in(mercure) was recently identified as possibly the worst hotel in the quarantine system & should not be used.

Yes i hope the media ask the question - i reckon he wont make a media appearance personally.

It again comes back to the wider issue of HQ, with leaks in both NSW and WA over the last week.....but lets just keep patching up the holes instead of coming up with a better solution

Angle of Attack 23rd Apr 2021 04:45

And everyone knows what the best solution is, but they just keep kicking the can down the road.
Dedicated quarantine facilities should have been constructed 1 year ago by the Feds, Hotels are totally
inadequate for quarantining people with a highly transmissible via aerosol virus. This is going to blow up in
our face if we aren’t careful.......9 identified in HQ in Adelaide yesterday, 13 in Darwin today (with dozens of close contacts on same flight)

The cost of building dedicated facilities in most states last year will dwarf 2 years of lockdowns...

jrfsp 23rd Apr 2021 05:01

Indeed, how long would it take to build a Howard Springs type facility with individual cabins with their own AC units located on the outskirts of our major cities. 6 weeks?

SOPS 23rd Apr 2021 05:12

Standby at 1.30 WST for press conference from Mark McGowan. Rumours here of lock down and border closure.

Foxxster 23rd Apr 2021 05:59

Stop ALL flights from India NOW.

SOPS 23rd Apr 2021 06:16


Originally Posted by Foxxster (Post 11032630)
Stop ALL flights from India NOW.

I think that’s the only way.


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