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Air NZ Jet

Old 28th May 2023, 07:16
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Originally Posted by AerocatS2A
They don't have an hourly rate. They have "incentive pay" which pays an additional percentage of your pay depending on how many hours over the min guarantee (59 for A320/1, 60 for the Boeings) you worked. Unfortunately it's a sliding scale that works out to be less per hour than what you were paid for the initial 59/60 hours. So say you are earning $156K flying the A320, your hourly rate would be $203 / hour (156000 / (13*59)) for the first 59 hours you work. Then incentive pay kicks in. Initially it's paid at 1.25% of the 4 weekly salary per hour and the percentage increases the more hours you do, this works out to be $150 / hour from 60 - 75 hours. As soon as you go into incentive pay you are getting paid less per additional hour than your ordinary pay. You only get back to earning the same per additional hour of work when you hit 100 hours and even then it's not quite the same. An A320 pilot flying 100 hours will achieve 167.5% of their base salary, meaning they've been paid $197 / hour for their "overtime", still less than their nominal hourly rate.

There are a lot of good things about the contract, but incentive pay isn't one of them. A needlessly complex system that would be far better by just paying the nominal hourly rate for each overtime hour worked (a whole chapter of the contract could be replaced by one line).

Imagine a labourer being asked to do some overtime for 75% of their normal hourly rate. They'd laugh at whichever clown proposed that, they'd laugh even harder when told it's "incentive".
I agree that IP is needlessly complicated and itís cheaper than hiring more pilots however, itís not quite the rip off as you make out.

As you said, we donít have an hourly flight rate, because weíre salaried. So you canít simply create one by dividing the Salary into 60hr flying rosters because the Salary also covers ground time such as Turnarounds, SIMís, Call etc

Using $156k as the example, Salaries are based on a 40hr working work which would equate to $75/hr but of course thatís a meaningless number outside of payroll because we donít work a standard 40hr week.

While other Airlines use flight hour rates and MGP, we donít. So itís not a fair analogy.




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Old 29th May 2023, 03:54
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I received an email from Air NZ stating due to the many applications, my application won’t be progressed at this stage.
They suggested to keep updating and they’ll be in touch.
I guess there is a yes/no letter. Is this a maybe?
I see the application window for the jet jobs has been extended until the end of the year.
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Old 29th May 2023, 08:27
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Originally Posted by ElZilcho
I agree that IP is needlessly complicated and itís cheaper than hiring more pilots however, itís not quite the rip off as you make out.

As you said, we donít have an hourly flight rate, because weíre salaried. So you canít simply create one by dividing the Salary into 60hr flying rosters because the Salary also covers ground time such as Turnarounds, SIMís, Call etc

Using $156k as the example, Salaries are based on a 40hr working work which would equate to $75/hr but of course thatís a meaningless number outside of payroll because we donít work a standard 40hr week.

While other Airlines use flight hour rates and MGP, we donít. So itís not a fair analogy.
Well all I know is that my previous (Australian) employer did exactly what I'm suggesting. Salary divided by guaranteed work hours is your hourly pay and any pay on top was at that hourly rate. A callout was at a minimum of 4 hours pay, much better than our Z days. The salary was a salary just like Air NZ. I don't see any difference from our salary and the hourly rate with guaranteed hours that other airlines have, that is a salary in all but name. Our incentive pay clause even talks about "MGP".
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Old 31st May 2023, 09:17
  #124 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by DDD12
Thanks alot... appreciate the feedback and info.
Your inbox is full so I can't reply to your PM.
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Old 3rd Jun 2023, 17:32
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Originally Posted by AerocatS2A
Your inbox is full so I can't reply to your PM.
opps... all good now!
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Old 5th Jun 2023, 21:02
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Originally Posted by ElZilcho
I agree that IP is needlessly complicated and it’s cheaper than hiring more pilots however, it’s not quite the rip off as you make out.

As you said, we don’t have an hourly flight rate, because we’re salaried. So you can’t simply create one by dividing the Salary into 60hr flying rosters because the Salary also covers ground time such as Turnarounds, SIM’s, Call etc

Using $156k as the example, Salaries are based on a 40hr working work which would equate to $75/hr but of course that’s a meaningless number outside of payroll because we don’t work a standard 40hr week.

While other Airlines use flight hour rates and MGP, we don’t. So it’s not a fair analogy.
For comparison here's the Qantas short haul equivalent of incentive pay:

27.4 Additional hourly rate after exceeding minimum guarantee hours

27.4.1 When a pilot exceeds minimum guarantee hours he or she will be paid an additional hourly rate for each such flying hour in excess of fifty three hours and twenty four minutes (53:24) calculated by dividing the applicable annual salary rate by six-hundred-ninety six (696) (“applicable hourly rate”).

27.4.2 For the purposes of this clause 27, actual time involved in deadhead travel for the purposes of a pilot’s proficiency or endorsement will count as the equivalent of flying duties at the rate of one (1) hour for two (2) hours elapsed.
This is the method I think Air NZ should be using. They've taken the annual salary, and yes it's a salary, divided it by the annual guarantee hours, and called that the hourly rate.
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Old 6th Jun 2023, 00:25
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Originally Posted by AerocatS2A
For comparison here's the Qantas short haul equivalent of incentive pay:

This is the method I think Air NZ should be using. They've taken the annual salary, and yes it's a salary, divided it by the annual guarantee hours, and called that the hourly rate.
No doubt QF have the better contract, and I suppose it's the gold standard in that regard so something to aim for. You mentioned your previous employer, so if you left QF Mainline for Air NZ I can't blame you for feeling ripped off in that regard. Other Airlines, IP/Overtime doesn't kick in until ~75 hours, so while the rate might be higher you've got to work a lot harder to achieve it, especially when they only pay for block hours. Air NZ's IP is certainly a massive improvement over my last employer, although that was 10 years ago.
What does the QF LH Contract say? Having separate LH and SH contracts is certainly an advantage (from an outsiders POV anyway) as ours was definitely written for LH and adopted for SH, the A320 definitely gets the short end of the stick. I've had some massive Rosters on the Bus where I barely touch IP. Comparatively, I've have 90+ hr LH rosters that, due to strategic bidding, were quite manageable.

So I can certainly agree, for the A320, it needs addressing. For LH, I think it's fine.
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Old 6th Jun 2023, 04:23
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It was Cobham / National Jet. 60 hours in 28 days was the threshold for overtime (except they still had a monthly roster so it was 65.1 hours per calendar month). I’m not saying that it was a better place to work, it wasn’t, there is a lot in the Air NZ contract that is good. Never done LH so can’t comment.
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Old 6th Jun 2023, 08:16
  #129 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by AerocatS2A
It was Cobham / National Jet. 60 hours in 28 days was the threshold for overtime (except they still had a monthly roster so it was 65.1 hours per calendar month). I’m not saying that it was a better place to work, it wasn’t, there is a lot in the Air NZ contract that is good. Never done LH so can’t comment.
LH is a different world. 60hrs can be achieved in 2 trips, or 90hrs in 3 if you bid strategically, especially when we were going to LHR. 3 vs 4 Pilot trips has more effect on fatigue than roster hours.

My last job also had a higher hourly IP rate than Air NZ, similar calc to QF, but the higher threshold combined with a lower overall salary/MGP meant it was all smoke and mirrors.
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Old 21st Jun 2023, 19:01
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Originally Posted by TinaTurner
I received an email from Air NZ stating due to the many applications, my application wonít be progressed at this stage.
They suggested to keep updating and theyíll be in touch.
I guess there is a yes/no letter. Is this a maybe?
I see the application window for the jet jobs has been extended until the end of the year.
I got exactly the same, wasn't quite sure what it actually means.

Is there any update on external hiring? Has the second lot gone through for interview yet?
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Old 21st Jun 2023, 22:47
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Originally Posted by runna
I got exactly the same, wasn't quite sure what it actually means.

Is there any update on external hiring? Has the second lot gone through for interview yet?
Sounds like that is the No letter. Update them every 6 months or so and have another crack at it next time. Good luck - and donít let it stop you trying again!
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Old 22nd Jun 2023, 07:48
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Originally Posted by runna
I got exactly the same, wasn't quite sure what it actually means.

Is there any update on external hiring? Has the second lot gone through for interview yet?

Curious, what's your experience?
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Old 25th Jun 2023, 07:11
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Second interview panel 6-7 Jul. Has anyone got insider knowledge on when the next one will be?

From Air NZ:We anticipate hiring a small number of external pilots into the jet fleet later this year. Next year it is likely we will need to increase the number of new jet pilots recruited from external sources, as our ability to hire into the turboprop fleets (to backfill movements to the jet) becomes more challenged after two years of very strong recruitment. At some point in 2024 it is likely that we will need to exceed the 10% external hiring ratio and trigger the appoint and second mechanism provided for in the RPPP.

Interest in the turboprop first officer role remains strong, but the percentage of applicants who meet our minimum requirements is decreasing. For example, as a result of the nature of our GA industry, one of our biggest challenges is finding enough pilots with solid IFR experience and a current instrument rating.
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Old 30th Jun 2023, 11:24
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Originally Posted by wantobe
Curious, what's your experience?
3000 hours 320 FO, NZ licensed but not current
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Old 30th Jun 2023, 17:42
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Originally Posted by runna
3000 hours 320 FO, NZ licensed but not current
I imagine that with the currently incredibly small number of jet externals being recruited that the HR team can apply incredibly selective filters to whittle down the applicants. Iíd reckon that even something like not having a current NZ licence would be enough to go in the maybe later basket for now.
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Old 30th Jun 2023, 20:04
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Originally Posted by Seosan
I imagine that with the currently incredibly small number of jet externals being recruited that the HR team can apply incredibly selective filters to whittle down the applicants. Iíd reckon that even something like not having a current NZ licence would be enough to go in the maybe later basket for now.
Meanwhile in AustraliaÖ.
Frustrating NZ industry is so small.
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Old 30th Jun 2023, 22:07
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I doubt many external jet hires have a current NZ licence. The licence becomes current through the normal course of training anyway.
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Old 10th Jul 2023, 13:18
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Originally Posted by ElZilcho
It's not that I think your points are wrong - I'm sure there are plenty of Pilots who love the RPPP, but I disagree with it being what's best for Airline, and in turn, all of it's Pilots. I view the RPPP as only being beneficial to small group of Senior Regional Pilots at others expense. Sometimes, ignorance is bliss. If I knew then what I knew now my career would likely have been vastly different. To a new hire 20 year old, a guaranteed Air NZ Jet job in 10-12 years might sounds amazing, because they never knew they could do it in 4-6.
As the 20 year old, (19 finishing a CPL and MEIR), what's the best thing to do,try join the links asap and joining the 8 year queue or push your career elsewhere until ready to come back to the Jets as an external. Always wanted to do an OE of some sort in my 20's and go fly a jet somewhere else in the world and explore for a bit while I'm young, but the goal is to always come back to the Jets. Is the externals going to remain a viable pathway into Air NZ jet in the future or would I be better off to just start at the links and stay at Air NZ for my whole career.
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Old 10th Jul 2023, 21:10
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Be very careful relying on the recruitment process remaining the same. The Company will (understandably, if misguidedly) always do what it thinks is best for itself.

The instant this current process becomes a hindrance, or new management come into play, the rules will be changed. That’s not a guess looking forward, that’s a statement from looking back.

Decisions made at your age often come without the burdens we have when older, and often turn out to be the best decisions we ever make. Take some risks and enjoy your life.
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Old 10th Jul 2023, 22:05
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Originally Posted by ruralaviator
As the 20 year old, (19 finishing a CPL and MEIR), what's the best thing to do,try join the links asap and joining the 8 year queue or push your career elsewhere until ready to come back to the Jets as an external. Always wanted to do an OE of some sort in my 20's and go fly a jet somewhere else in the world and explore for a bit while I'm young, but the goal is to always come back to the Jets. Is the externals going to remain a viable pathway into Air NZ jet in the future or would I be better off to just start at the links and stay at Air NZ for my whole career.
Purely from a career progression and financial POV, you want to get an Air NZ Seniority number at the first opportunity if that’s where you ultimately wish to end up.

Doing an OE and flying Jets around the world make for great life experiences and work stories, but count for absolutely zero in the grand scheme of things at a seniority based legacy carrier and can be the difference between retiring as an FO or getting a Widebody Command before you’re 50.

Unfortunately, none of us have a crystal ball and can tell you what the Landcsape will be when you decide to come home. You could get picked up 2 weeks after applying or sitting in a “please keep updating your application” file for another 5 years, or longer.
The current RPPP process is destined to fail, but it’s also more written in stone than any process we’ve had in the past given it has no out clause for the company other than tag and release.

However….

The flip side to going overseas, is you might decide to not come back. There’s a thread at the moment talking about Aussie Airlines being a “noose around your neck” and believe me, Air NZ is no different. When you’re mid 40’s, with a family and 10-15 years of Seniority it’s extremely difficult to pack up and leave if you become unhappy. The gloss of living in NZ has well been eroded in the past decade (or more) and our salaries have failed to keep up with inflation. Something that doesn’t necessarily become obvious until you’ve got a Mortgage, Family and hit the salary cap for your rank, watching your bid for promotion barely budge as more Pilots continue past 65 for the same reasons.

Just like life, this career is full of decisions and consequences. Looking back, I don’t think Air NZ was the right decision for me based on my age of joining, the direction NZ as a country is going and recent world events that I could have never predicted. In another 5-10 years however, it could all change.
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