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Air NZ Jet

Old 25th Feb 2023, 01:23
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Originally Posted by big buddah
Jesus, that’s extremely good coin for a Second Officer. Surprised the airline is willing to pay that much compared to a A320 FO role. I know which position I’d take!!
It was a bit of an own goal that one.

ALPA is by far the majority union at Air NZ, but there is another one, FANZP. A number of years ago, FANZ negotiated a significant pay rise for their SO’s by sacrificing the increase at higher ranks. Due to dwindling membership, this would attract new hires to FANZ instead of ALPA.

Naturally, ALPA challenged it, we already had a clause in our CEA designed to prevent situations such as this so rather surprising the company didn’t see it coming. It dragged out, but in the end we achieved pay parity and an SO rate the Company would have never agreed to in the first place if was across the board instead of a small handful.

The “new” SO pay rate does make the A320 less attractive as it’s only a 12% (give or take) difference in base pay which is easily made up as an SO, so it comes down to a lifestyle decision. I enjoyed my time as an SO, but it got quite boring after a few years, destinations were great but I couldn’t sit there for 8-10 years waiting for a window unless I was commuting.
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Old 25th Feb 2023, 06:05
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Do you have a ballpark time from FO/SO to 320 command?
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Old 25th Feb 2023, 07:38
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Originally Posted by Seosan
Do you have a ballpark time from FO/SO to 320 command?
Pre-COVID? Guys at the head of the wave were getting Commands around 6 years in.
Now? People who lost their Commands when we downsized are slowly getting them back, probably around the 9-10 year mark, about the same as F8.

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Old 25th Feb 2023, 08:23
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Originally Posted by ElZilcho
Pre-COVID? Guys at the head of the wave were getting Commands around 6 years in.
Now? People who lost their Commands when we downsized are slowly getting them back, probably around the 9-10 year mark, about the same as F8.
Wish I had a green card...
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Old 26th Feb 2023, 00:27
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Good info thanks.

What are the part time and commuting provisions like? Part time SO living somewhere remote sounds alright. What’s this 90 minute drive zone policy all about?
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Old 26th Feb 2023, 07:35
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Don’t worry about the 90 minute work zone… they tried to push it on Pilots a number of years ago and we pushed back. Half of Auckland is outside 90 minutes during peak traffic, and that’s the half where houses are “affordable”.

There’s no commuting provisions, it’s on you to get to work. Plenty make it work, mostly Longhaul. Definitely adds to your time away from home, especially if you’re relying on flights.

Part time contracts are 75% and 50% but they aren’t guaranteed or permanent. Essentially it’s first come first serve for your Rank, so you register your intent on a list and when it’s your turn, you get 2 years part time. After 2 years you rotate to the bottom of the list if you apply again. Some have managed to stay part-time long term, case by case basis I suppose.

I’ve neither commuted nor gone part time so don’t have first hand experience with either.
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Old 27th Feb 2023, 08:38
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Cheers. Can’t imagine there’d be many part time SO’s. I assume most in that position are on the younger side, still establishing themselves. Not old timers on the way back down and wanting to ease off. Will watch with interest how the recruitment goes.
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Old 27th Feb 2023, 21:36
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Originally Posted by ElZilcho
I have my suspicion that this EOI for externals could be specifically targeted at getting more A320 FO’s into Auckland, due to a combination of regional pilots struggling to transition and others declining Auckland.
Never let the truth get in the way of a good story though.

1, 1 Pilot seems to be struggling.
2, No one is declining anything, their "bids reflect their career aspirations". There are plenty of people with valid bids down the A320 list to fill all advertisements.

So far the system (including the 10% external) is working as advertised. Next year may be different, but the agreement allows for that too.
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Old 28th Feb 2023, 02:46
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There are plenty of young people interested in part time / flexi flying. The turbo prop fleet has a reasonable number of them and the jet fleet has a number of SOs on flexi flying agreements (not clear on exact numbers as the list hasn't been updated for a while). There are a few pilot couples in the company.
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Old 14th Apr 2023, 23:38
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Hello, can anybody answer a few questions on the turbo prop fleet. Bases, salary and hours per month?
Thanks in advance.
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Old 15th Apr 2023, 05:16
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Originally Posted by Bmozzle
Never let the truth get in the way of a good story though.

1, 1 Pilot seems to be struggling.
2, No one is declining anything, their "bids reflect their career aspirations". There are plenty of people with valid bids down the A320 list to fill all advertisements.

So far the system (including the 10% external) is working as advertised. Next year may be different, but the agreement allows for that too.
Seems I missed this a few months ago.

The 1 you’re referring to, if it’s who I’m thinking of, is still in Limbo. But there has been a lot of extra training going on lately, which isn’t exactly announced in the weekly emails. From extra SIMS to extra Sectors, the spike in extra resources required has definitely put a strain on the training department and rosters. That’s not say everyone’s struggling, far from it, and with the extra training (mostly) everyone’s getting through, but it’s a noticeable diversion from the norm.

However, my comment about people declining Auckland seems to be misunderstood. Yes, Regional Pilots have bids in for F20, but a number indicated they wanted WLG or CHC not AKL. The Jet fleet has domiciles not bases thus there’s no standing bid system for a particular “base”. The bids might reflect their career aspirations but not where they wish to live. However, since my original post, it appears that may have been a blip on the radar.

I have nothing against Regional Pilots, and most of us support a pathway to Jet, but the RPPP is only working as advertised for a small portion of senior regional Pilots and absent of the big picture. The issues are being masked at present due to a critical shortage in Aircraft, but it’s the number 1 topic at manpower meetings.

Yes, the RPPP allows for hiring above the 10% external threshold, but we’ve been there before and seen the consequences of tag and release. Pre COVID, we had Recruitment boards where almost no one showed up because word got out there was 100 reserved seniority numbers ahead of them. We were on the verge of a recruitment Crisis if COVID hadn’t slammed on the brakes.

The harsh reality is, the Jet Fleet cannot expand without external recruitment and we can’t (successfully) recruit externally if half the regional fleet have reserved seniority numbers.
To put things into perspective, we permanently retired 8x 777’s over COVID. If those Aircraft were instead stored with plans to return to service this year, the Regionals, via the RPPP, could not cope with the demand. So all we’ve done is kick the can down the road.

For those at the top of the RSL, the RPPP is working as intended and they’ll get their Jet jobs. But long term, everyone loses (including them) if we’re unable to expand due to Recruitment hurdles.
If I was a 20 year old fresh Link FO, staring at 600 names ahead of me for Air NZ Jet, I’d do my bond then risk the 8 year stand down and fly Jets elsewhere.
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Old 15th Apr 2023, 08:46
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Originally Posted by ElZilcho
Seems I missed this a few months ago.

The 1 you’re referring to, if it’s who I’m thinking of, is still in Limbo. But there has been a lot of extra training going on lately, which isn’t exactly announced in the weekly emails. From extra SIMS to extra Sectors, the spike in extra resources required has definitely put a strain on the training department and rosters. That’s not say everyone’s struggling, far from it, and with the extra training (mostly) everyone’s getting through, but it’s a noticeable diversion from the norm.

However, my comment about people declining Auckland seems to be misunderstood. Yes, Regional Pilots have bids in for F20, but a number indicated they wanted WLG or CHC not AKL. The Jet fleet has domiciles not bases thus there’s no standing bid system for a particular “base”. The bids might reflect their career aspirations but not where they wish to live. However, since my original post, it appears that may have been a blip on the radar.

I have nothing against Regional Pilots, and most of us support a pathway to Jet, but the RPPP is only working as advertised for a small portion of senior regional Pilots and absent of the big picture. The issues are being masked at present due to a critical shortage in Aircraft, but it’s the number 1 topic at manpower meetings.

Yes, the RPPP allows for hiring above the 10% external threshold, but we’ve been there before and seen the consequences of tag and release. Pre COVID, we had Recruitment boards where almost no one showed up because word got out there was 100 reserved seniority numbers ahead of them. We were on the verge of a recruitment Crisis if COVID hadn’t slammed on the brakes.

The harsh reality is, the Jet Fleet cannot expand without external recruitment and we can’t (successfully) recruit externally if half the regional fleet have reserved seniority numbers.
To put things into perspective, we permanently retired 8x 777’s over COVID. If those Aircraft were instead stored with plans to return to service this year, the Regionals, via the RPPP, could not cope with the demand. So all we’ve done is kick the can down the road.

For those at the top of the RSL, the RPPP is working as intended and they’ll get their Jet jobs. But long term, everyone loses (including them) if we’re unable to expand due to Recruitment hurdles.
If I was a 20 year old fresh Link FO, staring at 600 names ahead of me for Air NZ Jet, I’d do my bond then risk the 8 year stand down and fly Jets elsewhere.
Honestly it feels like you're lecturing on high from a position of privilege and absolutely discounting the significant other benefits for those that may be lower than even me. Yes, there is the consequences of COVID to overcome but senior management have indicated they don't see a significantly expanded fleet over what is in place now.

And yes people are going to leave the group to do other things. In any configuration of "recruitment" that is always going to be the case and sometimes it works out as a net positive and sometimes it doesn't it. But there are a huge number of people that want to make life plans, pay mortgages etc and want this career to be less sh*t than it can certainly be. You're welcome to begrudge that but it's a better system than what has been in place for a long time.

Hey and at the end of the day we're still going to have the opportunity for some salty old guy who can go in the sim on recruitment boards and shred people at will.
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Old 15th Apr 2023, 08:54
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Originally Posted by Massey058
Hey and at the end of the day we're still going to have the opportunity for some salty old guy who can go in the sim on recruitment boards and shred people at will.
Ignorant statement that couldn't be further from the truth.
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Old 15th Apr 2023, 09:09
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Originally Posted by bendo77
Hello, can anybody answer a few questions on the turbo prop fleet. Bases, salary and hours per month?
Thanks in advance.
Bases are AKL, TRG, NPL, NPE, WLG, NSN & CHC. NPE ATR only and NPL Dash only.

Year 1 FO 66k, with all ATPL subjects start at year 4 77k.

Hours vary across bases, across months, across fleets. 35-60 hours a month. Baring in mind there's a fair amount of 20-35 minute sectors more biased to the Dash.
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Old 15th Apr 2023, 09:10
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Originally Posted by dctPub
Ignorant statement that couldn't be further from the truth.
I really wish it was ignorant. I really do. But some good people have been toyed with and it's not cool.
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Old 15th Apr 2023, 10:45
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Originally Posted by Massey058
Honestly it feels like you're lecturing on high from a position of privilege and absolutely discounting the significant other benefits for those that may be lower than even me. Yes, there is the consequences of COVID to overcome but senior management have indicated they don't see a significantly expanded fleet over what is in place now.

And yes people are going to leave the group to do other things. In any configuration of "recruitment" that is always going to be the case and sometimes it works out as a net positive and sometimes it doesn't it. But there are a huge number of people that want to make life plans, pay mortgages etc and want this career to be less sh*t than it can certainly be. You're welcome to begrudge that but it's a better system than what has been in place for a long time.

Hey and at the end of the day we're still going to have the opportunity for some salty old guy who can go in the sim on recruitment boards and shred people at will.
Your last statement sounds like extremely sour grapes. You talk about some "salty old guy" in Recruitment boards, well I've seen my fair share of Pilots complain about an unfair process who (example) literally could not turn off the Runway track in the SIM assessment, that's how overloaded they were in a Jet. And no, they weren't 500 hour T-Prop candidates. Perhaps you're speaking from experience and felt you had a raw deal, perhaps you're re-telling someone else's experience, but if there's one thing I've learned over the years, those who fail never tell the full story when moaning about it in the Crew Room.
Some of the best recruiters are the "old dudes" because they've a wealth of experience, often in training roles, to look through the interview jitters. That's not to say there isn't the odd "grumpy bastard" but someone like that, with a clear agenda, wouldn't last in recruitment as it's a combined assessment process. No one recruiter has a final say and there's always 2 of them in the SIM.

People have always, and will always leave the group externally. Something John Whitaker could never seem to understand when he started this quest to make the Link Pilot Turnover a Jet problem rather than simply accepting it as a cost of doing business. The RPPP doesn't change this, it just encourages people to leave sooner because with 600+ names on the RSL and 20-30 Jet retirement per year, it's a long road to Jet for new hires. Add in a punitive 8 year stand down if they leave, best get that started sooner rather than later.

But where do you think you'd be today if the RPPP existed 10 years ago? Where would Air NZ be? Because I can give you a rough idea.
We've recruited roughly 500 Jet Pilots in the last 10 years. Now, I'm sure we can all agree that 90-100% internal would of been impossible, it's why the "Link ban" happened in the first place, Mt Cook was expanding at the same time as Jet so we simply needed externals.
Now the funny thing here, is in the beginning it was almost 100% internal, then 100% external at the end. The RPP however, works off a yearly ratio, so lets just assume it was 50/50 every year. So 25/25, 50 per year over 10 years.
The RPPP allows for a 1:9 Ratio, so 25 Internals allows the company 3 externals (I've rounded up, but lets be honest the company would round down). That leaves 22 above the Ratio per year, so now the 4:1 tag and seccond comes into play, that's 22x4 so 88 tag and release pilots per year.

Thus over a 10 year Period, that would be 250 Link Pilots Hired with another 880 "tagged" with reserved numbers. So 1130 total regional Pilots added onto the Jet List over a 10 year Period. For reference, the Jet Fleet has roughly 1050 on the list at the moment.

Sure, I've taken a few liberties with the numbers there, but the point is, the RPPP is doomed to fail. We can argue over when, and those arguments are currently taking place well above my paygrade, but the unfortunate reality of the RPPP, which no one likes to talk about, is it heavily favors Pilots currently at the top of the RSL, many of whom have had multiple failed attempts to move on. Not just at Air NZ, but J*, Virgin, JetConnect, Cathay... Ignoring the implications for Jet, all the RPPP has done for the majority of Link Pilots is massively delayed their career progressions in favor of the "salty old guys" ahead of them.
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Old 15th Apr 2023, 11:14
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Originally Posted by ElZilcho
Your last statement sounds like extremely sour grapes. You talk about some "salty old guy" in Recruitment boards, well I've seen my fair share of Pilots complain about an unfair process who (example) literally could not turn off the Runway track in the SIM assessment, that's how overloaded they were in a Jet. And no, they weren't 500 hour T-Prop candidates. Perhaps you're speaking from experience and felt you had a raw deal, perhaps you're re-telling someone else's experience, but if there's one thing I've learned over the years, those who fail never tell the full story when moaning about it in the Crew Room.
Some of the best recruiters are the "old dudes" because they've a wealth of experience, often in training roles, to look through the interview jitters. That's not to say there isn't the odd "grumpy bastard" but someone like that, with a clear agenda, wouldn't last in recruitment as it's a combined assessment process. No one recruiter has a final say and there's always 2 of them in the SIM.

People have always, and will always leave the group externally. Something John Whitaker could never seem to understand when he started this quest to make the Link Pilot Turnover a Jet problem rather than simply accepting it as a cost of doing business. The RPPP doesn't change this, it just encourages people to leave sooner because with 600+ names on the RSL and 20-30 Jet retirement per year, it's a long road to Jet for new hires. Add in a punitive 8 year stand down if they leave, best get that started sooner rather than later.

But where do you think you'd be today if the RPPP existed 10 years ago? Where would Air NZ be? Because I can give you a rough idea.
We've recruited roughly 500 Jet Pilots in the last 10 years. Now, I'm sure we can all agree that 90-100% internal would of been impossible, it's why the "Link ban" happened in the first place, Mt Cook was expanding at the same time as Jet so we simply needed externals.
Now the funny thing here, is in the beginning it was almost 100% internal, then 100% external at the end. The RPP however, works off a yearly ratio, so lets just assume it was 50/50 every year. So 25/25, 50 per year over 10 years.
The RPPP allows for a 1:9 Ratio, so 25 Internals allows the company 3 externals (I've rounded up, but lets be honest the company would round down). That leaves 22 above the Ratio per year, so now the 4:1 tag and seccond comes into play, that's 22x4 so 88 tag and release pilots per year.

Thus over a 10 year Period, that would be 250 Link Pilots Hired with another 880 "tagged" with reserved numbers. So 1130 total regional Pilots added onto the Jet List over a 10 year Period. For reference, the Jet Fleet has roughly 1050 on the list at the moment.

Sure, I've taken a few liberties with the numbers there, but the point is, the RPPP is doomed to fail. We can argue over when, and those arguments are currently taking place well above my paygrade, but the unfortunate reality of the RPPP, which no one likes to talk about, is it heavily favors Pilots currently at the top of the RSL, many of whom have had multiple failed attempts to move on. Not just at Air NZ, but J*, Virgin, JetConnect, Cathay... Ignoring the implications for Jet, all the RPPP has done for the majority of Link Pilots is massively delayed their career progressions in favor of the "salty old guys" ahead of them.
I think in all your posts you've made very clear your entrenched position. Where do I came at it from? Things change, always have, always will. I like stability and always have, even when it seems like an impossibility. A lot of people do and this new system works for a lot of people.

​​​​​​But there is no system that will please all people, all of the time.

I think what I find odd is how hard you really are against it. Is your position at threat? Or are you just annoyed on behalf of people you know that you feel are being denied? Because I've made that point too and you don't seem to like it. Sometimes it is what it is.

I wasn't trying to make generalisations about recruiting but I've been involved on both sides and in other industries too. I find it all quite arbitrary and random at times even with "robust" systems in place. But I've done fine out it so for me there are no sour grapes.

I'm sure you've been around long enough as have I to know sometimes people aren't always their best selves in the sim and I'm not talking about candidates or necessarily interviews here either. I think industry-wide it's probably better than in years gone by. But we are still dealing with humans that are far more complicated than prescribed procedures. Let me be clear that their are plenty of salty old guys I would classify as GCs.

It's great that you've run all the numbers and I know plenty of people that do in career planning but the thing I've found is that's it's like being an economist. The theory is sound but the practice is often different.

Neither of us speak for all and never can. I don't expect I will have moved you from your position at all, I can certainly see yours and understand it fully but for me I'm ok with the way things are playing out and I know many who are.
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Old 15th Apr 2023, 12:23
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Originally Posted by Massey058
I think in all your posts you've made very clear your entrenched position. Where do I came at it from? Things change, always have, always will. I like stability and always have, even when it seems like an impossibility. A lot of people do and this new system works for a lot of people.

​​​​​​But there is no system that will please all people, all of the time.

I think what I find odd is how hard you really are against it. Is your position at threat? Or are you just annoyed on behalf of people you know that you feel are being denied? Because I've made that point too and you don't seem to like it. Sometimes it is what it is.

I wasn't trying to make generalisations about recruiting but I've been involved on both sides and in other industries too. I find it all quite arbitrary and random at times even with "robust" systems in place. But I've done fine out it so for me there are no sour grapes.

I'm sure you've been around long enough as have I to know sometimes people aren't always their best selves in the sim and I'm not talking about candidates or necessarily interviews here either. I think industry-wide it's probably better than in years gone by. But we are still dealing with humans that are far more complicated than prescribed procedures. Let me be clear that their are plenty of salty old guys I would classify as GCs.

It's great that you've run all the numbers and I know plenty of people that do in career planning but the thing I've found is that's it's like being an economist. The theory is sound but the practice is often different.

Neither of us speak for all and never can. I don't expect I will have moved you from your position at all, I can certainly see yours and understand it fully but for me I'm ok with the way things are playing out and I know many who are.
While I joined Jet as an external, I once was once a Regional Pilot. At the time, it was anyone's guess what the requirements were for an Air NZ interview. Time on type? Total time? Seniority? Command time? None of us really knew other than to take a training position guaranteed you wouldn't get an interview. So, when my time was up, I left for a few years before coming back as an "external". As such, I've been on both sides of this debate... along with having had a few unpleasant dealings with some of it's architects and strongest proponents.

Many things have changed for the better. Eagle is gone, Mt Cook has vastly expanded and, while viewed as a B Scale, the blended Link rate also means the Day 1 lottery has been removed for new hires. Things have vastly improved for Regional Pilots over the past 10 years, but many of the Pilots haven't been there long enough to experience what it was and those who have aren't effected by the changes.

However, as I've said before, within the Jet fleet we voted for a Regional Pathway a number of years ago in a company survey. To this day, I still support a pathway because of my own experiences in Link but also because I believe Regional Pilots shouldn't be treated the same as unknown externals. They've got several years within the Company and so a separate process for internal transfers with more transparency was needed. However, a pathway is not the same as an armored escort pushing aside everyone in it's way. By now it's fair to say I've made my point that with the filter removed, there are people coming through who shouldn't, so I wont keep beating that dead horse.

I think what I find odd is how hard you really are against it. Is your position at threat? Or are you just annoyed on behalf of people you know that you feel are being denied? Because I've made that point too and you don't seem to like it. Sometimes it is what it is.
Is my position in threat? No, not directly. But if the Airline fails to expand in the future due to recruitment hurdles then it will effect all of us. Again, I witnessed first hand what 100 reserved places did to recruitment and it's on track to happen again only worse - current forecasts indicate every Link Captain will be on the Jet List within 2-3 years. During the pathways vote, we rejected a Joint Seniority list because we knew the detrimental effects it would have on expansion yet the RPPP will mostly achieve the same result just via different means.
Am I annoyed on behalf of other people being denied? Sure, in the grand scheme of things I suppose I am, because the RPPP was clearly written out of spite and removes the Airlines flexibility which is the biggest concern within Jet at the moment.
Yes, there was a period of time where the Links couldn't release anyone else to Jet so the brakes had to be put on, and for those who just missed out, it sucks. I get it, but it was a temporary setback. The RPPP basically says to every external, including Air Force Pilots "screw you, join the back of the queue". Which, I'm sorry, is absurd, and if the feedback I'm hearing from recent meetings is at all accurate, the company is beginning see this also.

It's not that I think your points are wrong - I'm sure there are plenty of Pilots who love the RPPP, but I disagree with it being what's best for Airline, and in turn, all of it's Pilots. I view the RPPP as only being beneficial to small group of Senior Regional Pilots at others expense. Sometimes, ignorance is bliss. If I knew then what I knew now my career would likely have been vastly different. To a new hire 20 year old, a guaranteed Air NZ Jet job in 10-12 years might sounds amazing, because they never knew they could do it in 4-6.

Last edited by ElZilcho; 15th Apr 2023 at 12:35.
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Old 16th Apr 2023, 08:59
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Sorry to intervene in another great internal vs external debate.

Has anyone caught wind of this EOI leading to any interviews? Last I heard there were recruitment boards penned for April. With 75 link pilots planned to be recruited that leaves about 7 roles for externals. That sound about right?
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Old 16th Apr 2023, 09:27
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Originally Posted by Seosan
Sorry to intervene in another great internal vs external debate.

Has anyone caught wind of this EOI leading to any interviews? Last I heard there were recruitment boards penned for April. With 75 link pilots planned to be recruited that leaves about 7 roles for externals. That sound about right?
I’m told there will be a small number of externals this year, in-line with your estimate, but it’s planned to ramp up next year. None of the assigned courses are showing new intakes at the moment.

There are interview boards this month but unsure if they’re for Jet or Link at this stage.
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