Air NZ Jet
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We took our '9 externals for the year' a few weeks ago. First external assessment day, all applicants got through. Any more externals taken this year will trigger appoint and second.
Join Date: Oct 2010
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I could stand to be corrected but I don’t think they will have course start dates/fleets yet. When they put out the course advertisements it states whether regional pilots can be released to fill the roles. If they can’t be released then they would fill them with externals but that’s supposed to be later this year.
AKL is not something you "go for". Air New Zealand has one, and only one, pilot base. Whether you're on the A320 or one of the Boeings, you are Auckland based. There are domiciles (and the difference is getting pretty technical these days) but as an external you don't necessarily know if you will get a Wellington or Christchurch domicile until after you start, so it's not something that you can accept or decline at the job offer acceptance stage, you can only take an Auckland pilot basing and note your interest for a domicile with the pilot admin team. It's a bit different for an internal hire as they may have significantly more seniority than a new hire and so they have more chance of getting the Christchurch domicile they want. It's relatively easy to get a Wellington domicile, it's Christchurch that has a long queue.
AKL is not something you "go for". Air New Zealand has one, and only one, pilot base. Whether you're on the A320 or one of the Boeings, you are Auckland based. There are domiciles (and the difference is getting pretty technical these days) but as an external you don't necessarily know if you will get a Wellington or Christchurch domicile until after you start, so it's not something that you can accept or decline at the job offer acceptance stage, you can only take an Auckland pilot basing and note your interest for a domicile with the pilot admin team. It's a bit different for an internal hire as they may have significantly more seniority than a new hire and so they have more chance of getting the Christchurch domicile they want. It's relatively easy to get a Wellington domicile, it's Christchurch that has a long queue.
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It would've been worthwhile having an interview at least and then seeing what you were offered. I got a domicile straight up as an external hire and was offered a B777 course initially but opted for an A320 course. It really depends on timing like the other poster said. This was all pre COVID.
It would've been worthwhile having an interview at least and then seeing what you were offered. I got a domicile straight up as an external hire and was offered a B777 course initially but opted for an A320 course. It really depends on timing like the other poster said. This was all pre COVID.
Although I understand from insiders post Covid the bidding from regional will mostly be for s/o leaving a320 for lower seniorities.
Last edited by On Guard; 18th Apr 2023 at 08:44.
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I’ve always enjoyed reading your replies ElZilcho, and I understand where you’re coming from.
A couple of things, if Regional to jet this year is going to be about 75 pilots (and this is achievable) Jet training will be around the 80 mark (including externals), is it possible to train more than 80 onto the jet if required? That number seems like quite high and pretty reasonable if required over several years.
Also, I know of a handful of regional pilots who had been accepted into JQ and Jetconnect who have turned it down because they are going to wait for Jet, and there definitely aren’t the same numbers leaving regional as there were precovid so I guess RPPP is having its desired effect in the regional space, it’s also having a having a real effect on FOs moving to not so sort after bases so that they get their 1year command before being eligible for jet, this will be helping the company as there were multiple command vacancies unfilled pre RPPP. I know this is only helping regionally but it is a step forward. Also, there is definitely a more positive feel out on line, which is good for those who want to move to jet and those who want to stay.
And if you are joining externally, doesn’t there just need to be more visibility on what the 20/80 ratio means, because if there’s 1 external hired, you’re only starting behind 4 internals, plus you are on the aircraft and have bidding rights as opposed to the 4 who are seconded.
I agree with you though, and have been around long enough to know that RPPP won’t last in its current form
A couple of things, if Regional to jet this year is going to be about 75 pilots (and this is achievable) Jet training will be around the 80 mark (including externals), is it possible to train more than 80 onto the jet if required? That number seems like quite high and pretty reasonable if required over several years.
Also, I know of a handful of regional pilots who had been accepted into JQ and Jetconnect who have turned it down because they are going to wait for Jet, and there definitely aren’t the same numbers leaving regional as there were precovid so I guess RPPP is having its desired effect in the regional space, it’s also having a having a real effect on FOs moving to not so sort after bases so that they get their 1year command before being eligible for jet, this will be helping the company as there were multiple command vacancies unfilled pre RPPP. I know this is only helping regionally but it is a step forward. Also, there is definitely a more positive feel out on line, which is good for those who want to move to jet and those who want to stay.
And if you are joining externally, doesn’t there just need to be more visibility on what the 20/80 ratio means, because if there’s 1 external hired, you’re only starting behind 4 internals, plus you are on the aircraft and have bidding rights as opposed to the 4 who are seconded.
I agree with you though, and have been around long enough to know that RPPP won’t last in its current form
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I will say that if you have any type of experience you’d probably not join the regionals now, and look elsewhere, and this will be another choke point for the company as the regional applicants will dry up
In 2013 and again in 2016 we had around 100 new hires, but those were our biggest years (that I know of) and we had more aircraft types to funnel new hires into. So 80 between the 3 current fleets must be close to capacity.
I’m not surprised the RPPP has reduced turnover, it’s a great Carrot. Previously it was mostly Captains and FO’s with ATPL’s who would leave to the Aussies but they’re likely far enough up the RSL that an 8 year stand down isn’t worth the risk, and Junior FO’s likely don’t have enough experience…. Yet.
Long term, I can see a situation arising where those in the middle who feel “stuck” will warn those below them to go early. Due to supply and Demand, the Aussie carriers will likely have to lower their requirements (or pay more) as the pool of Link Captain applications dries up with the RPPP. The RHS of a 737 or A320 earning six figures could look rather appealing to a 22 year old Q300 FO that’s #599 in line for Air NZ.
People leaving the Links used to create a Command Vacancy and shorten the queue to Air NZ, hence 4-6 years being the norm. If the RPPP succeeds in keeping Captains, career progression in the Links is going to be painfully slow. In the beginning it won’t be, should be lots of new Commands this year, hence why everyone’s happy. When it slows down however, or when we get to tag and release 2.0, that’s when I expect Junior FO’s will start voting with their feet. As you said, this will be the new choke point.
In terms of transparency for externals, they absolutely should know the seniority implications for them. But once there’s a build up of Tagged numbers, word gets out and they stop applying.
I’m not surprised the RPPP has reduced turnover, it’s a great Carrot. Previously it was mostly Captains and FO’s with ATPL’s who would leave to the Aussies but they’re likely far enough up the RSL that an 8 year stand down isn’t worth the risk, and Junior FO’s likely don’t have enough experience…. Yet.
Long term, I can see a situation arising where those in the middle who feel “stuck” will warn those below them to go early. Due to supply and Demand, the Aussie carriers will likely have to lower their requirements (or pay more) as the pool of Link Captain applications dries up with the RPPP. The RHS of a 737 or A320 earning six figures could look rather appealing to a 22 year old Q300 FO that’s #599 in line for Air NZ.
People leaving the Links used to create a Command Vacancy and shorten the queue to Air NZ, hence 4-6 years being the norm. If the RPPP succeeds in keeping Captains, career progression in the Links is going to be painfully slow. In the beginning it won’t be, should be lots of new Commands this year, hence why everyone’s happy. When it slows down however, or when we get to tag and release 2.0, that’s when I expect Junior FO’s will start voting with their feet. As you said, this will be the new choke point.
In terms of transparency for externals, they absolutely should know the seniority implications for them. But once there’s a build up of Tagged numbers, word gets out and they stop applying.
Last edited by ElZilcho; 19th Apr 2023 at 20:03.
Source says that two external boards have happened but anyone’s guess if more will happen.
Interesting if they have wrapped up external recruitment for this year already before the job posting has even closed. Will the company update applicants or is the EOI just an ongoing open application?
Interesting if they have wrapped up external recruitment for this year already before the job posting has even closed. Will the company update applicants or is the EOI just an ongoing open application?
Join Date: May 2015
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I doubt they have wrapped up external recruitment for the year, however anymore externals will trigger appoint and second. With the mess that eventuated last time this was used, I would imagine the company would want to keep externals to a minimum.
As of 20th April, no externals have appeared on the course appointments list. This could simply be a case of working through notice periods etc before assigning start dates, but regardless, no externals have actually started yet thus the RPPP trigger has not been reached.
I’m unsure if we’re going to see a couple of 100% external courses on the Horizon or if they’ll be slotting them in amongst the internals over say the next 6 months. Either way, the number of externals interviewed isn’t a factor in the RPPP, only the number who actually start, and it’s not uncommon to lose a few to other Airlines along the way.
I’m unsure if we’re going to see a couple of 100% external courses on the Horizon or if they’ll be slotting them in amongst the internals over say the next 6 months. Either way, the number of externals interviewed isn’t a factor in the RPPP, only the number who actually start, and it’s not uncommon to lose a few to other Airlines along the way.
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Current forecast places 9:1 ratio to be broken in Roster 1 2024 at about 13ish percent. From there it keeps climbing to close to 30% external using present parameters in the forecasts.
Appoint and Second in Appendix A will kick in once the rolling 12 month average goes beyond 9:1 - which is important to note as thats measured off the point at which externals start turning up.
Externals are slated to start from August this year, at a rate for 2023 of 9.9% (I.e. a sliver inside 9:1).
Theres no reason for the company to stop interviewing externals to jet, as they are forecasting around 140 jet pilots needed in 2024 and 2025 each (based on current parameters), of which 100 are claimed to be internal turboprop movements. So they need a pool of 40 externals per year minimum HOWEVER.
The turboprop recruitment pool has all but dried up. I've been told they're down to around 2 eligible applications per month, and the total eligible pool is about 100 with a further 130 partially eligible. Turbos need around 150 new FOs per year to just keep up with the forecasts, so I assume it's all going to collapse in a huge heap within the next 12 months.
Essentially what I'm getting at is that the company cannot afford 100 turbo pilots to move to jet next year - hell, the ATR fleet is barely upright as is with training stretch. Appoint and Second will kick in as the fireworks fade on new years morning 2024, because we simply cannot supply what the forecast is saying.
Oh and to top it all off all the above figures are based on the regional airline recruiting 156 each year, which we might achieve this year but are guaranteed not to next year. What I'm trying to say is the above plan is even worse than anyone thinks it is. The parameters are all stuffed and I'm not sure anyone knows how to recover it at this point. Bring on a repeat of the Tag and Release debacle from yesteryear!
The only realistic future for the jet fleet is large percentage (I.e. more than 20%) external recruitment. You cant supply a larger pool (1100 jet pilots) with the flow through from a smaller pilot pool (650 regional pilots).
Appoint and Second in Appendix A will kick in once the rolling 12 month average goes beyond 9:1 - which is important to note as thats measured off the point at which externals start turning up.
Externals are slated to start from August this year, at a rate for 2023 of 9.9% (I.e. a sliver inside 9:1).
Theres no reason for the company to stop interviewing externals to jet, as they are forecasting around 140 jet pilots needed in 2024 and 2025 each (based on current parameters), of which 100 are claimed to be internal turboprop movements. So they need a pool of 40 externals per year minimum HOWEVER.
The turboprop recruitment pool has all but dried up. I've been told they're down to around 2 eligible applications per month, and the total eligible pool is about 100 with a further 130 partially eligible. Turbos need around 150 new FOs per year to just keep up with the forecasts, so I assume it's all going to collapse in a huge heap within the next 12 months.
Essentially what I'm getting at is that the company cannot afford 100 turbo pilots to move to jet next year - hell, the ATR fleet is barely upright as is with training stretch. Appoint and Second will kick in as the fireworks fade on new years morning 2024, because we simply cannot supply what the forecast is saying.
Oh and to top it all off all the above figures are based on the regional airline recruiting 156 each year, which we might achieve this year but are guaranteed not to next year. What I'm trying to say is the above plan is even worse than anyone thinks it is. The parameters are all stuffed and I'm not sure anyone knows how to recover it at this point. Bring on a repeat of the Tag and Release debacle from yesteryear!
The only realistic future for the jet fleet is large percentage (I.e. more than 20%) external recruitment. You cant supply a larger pool (1100 jet pilots) with the flow through from a smaller pilot pool (650 regional pilots).
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Read the reply again. 2 applications a month, not attendees at board. You need a flow of applicants to put through a board in the futue. And one board of 11 isn't any sign of success. From recollection the one prior had 11 invited, 6 showed up, and 2 got the job.